Death of Athletics, the benefits?

average_runner

pconn062 wrote: »

Yeah, I get that now. The way it was initially phrased made it sound like clubs were rejecting kids based on talent on physique. Clearly the demand for athletics is higher than the demand for tennis!

My initial phrase never made it sound the way you think it did, you just assume something.

Go back and read the thread, Ray had said there was probably 25,000 athletic club members, 80,000 tennis.

The reason why tennis doesn't have to turn people away is because you dont need coaches there all the time.

In Athletics, a coach can only handle so many kids, that's the problem at the moment, not enough coaches or time slots to coach the kids. While in tennis you can coach the kids anytime of the day, as coaches are usually fellow players or people that have a coaching business! While coaches in athletics at local club level are working people

Tombo2001

ecoli wrote: »

The topic was not so much to do with participation but more general popularity as a sport but I take your point.

I wouldn't say that track forgets or ignores the lower levels,

In terms of races yes there are a few which have a minimum entry standard due to logistics (IMC races etc where 8 lanes on a track means only 8 can run in a race) but take a look at the likes of the graded meets who don't turn any athletes away yet the numbers are small due to lack of demand which again results in great disparity of levels down the fields.

There were circa 120 male and 40 female athletes at last Wednesday nights Graded Meet in Santry. I think those are decent enough numbers.

The issue isnt one of elitism; but I do think the fact it is restricted to club members cuts down the numbers of potential runners.

Chivito550

Tombo2001 wrote: »

There were circa 120 male and 40 female athletes at last Wednesday nights Graded Meet in Santry. I think those are decent enough numbers.

The issue isnt one of elitism; but I do think the fact it is restricted to club members cuts down the numbers of potential runners.

Fully agree that there is no issue with regards elitism at graded meets. The atmosphere is very pleasant and everybody is welcome and catered for. They are nice events to be a part of.

But I'd disagree that the numbers are decent. In my regional zone within Melbourne, when I competed there, there would be much more athletes competing, and of all ages, across all T&F events, not the track domination we see here (how many people do you see doing field events at Graded Meets?). The problem is there is simply no incentive here for most club runners to hit the track. Why would a 20 minute 5K runner who runs loads of road races for his club bother running at the Graded Meets? The year long domination of road races means that track running is never going to be even considered for most club runners at the average to lower levels.

In Melbourne, track and field was the backbone of the athletics season for club runners from October to April. Within this time there are no club organised fun runs and road races. They are all scheduled for the winter so as not to get in the way of track. There are fun runs on throughout the year of course, but as far as I'm aware, none that are organised by clubs, and not too many that would be frequented by club runners (maybe people preparing for marathons may run some). In summer, most club runners hit the track. There is an incentive to do so, to score points for the club in the regular interclub competition. Road runners who would usually not consider the track are encouraged to give it a go, to help the club score points. The more people involved per club, the better the chances the club have of making the finals. Here, there is no such element to the graded meets. Everybody is essentially running for themselves, and so there's less reason for those who don't normally do track, to give it a go.

Something I've noticed a lot since coming back is the huge amount of club fun runs organised in summer time (which should be about track) and on weekends (prime time), this pushing most track meets to weekday evenings. IMO track should be made the focus for all club runners for the few months of the year that the season takes place in.

RayCun

but you can't have road races from September to March either - that's cross country season!!!
:pac:

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

but you can't have road races from September to March either - that's cross country season!!!
:pac:

Cross Country and Road can be combined into the one season. That's what they do in Melbourne and it works well. http://athsvic.org.au/events/competitions/avcompetitions/xcr/

RayCun

seriously, there is no way in hell road racing is going to be dropped during the summer. There is no earthly way that even 10% of club road runners could be accommodated on the track. If most Australian club runners hit the track in the summer there must be **** all Australian club runners.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Cross Country and Road can be combined into the one season. That's what they do in Melbourne and it works well. http://athsvic.org.au/events/competitions/avcompetitions/xcr/

oh I see, there's no problem having road races distract from cross country season, as long as they don't distract from track season

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

oh I see, there's no problem having road races distract from cross country season, as long as they don't distract from track season

Road racing and cross country are very similar disciplines, run by more or less the same people. Nothing stopping the two being merged and covered from September to April.

ecoli

Chivito550 wrote: »

Road racing and cross country are very similar disciplines, run by more or less the same people. Nothing stopping the two being merged and covered from September to April.

The only issue there is that the majority of road races in this country are not athletics club runs so all that would do is proceed to drive more money out of the sport rather than increase participation numbers in other disciplines.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Road racing and cross country are very similar disciplines, run by more or less the same people. Nothing stopping the two being merged and covered from September to April.

And in May we shout at these people, "STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING! RUN ON THE TRACK INSTEAD!", even though this is apparently very different, and run by very different people?

ecoli

Tombo2001 wrote: »

There were circa 120 male and 40 female athletes at last Wednesday nights Graded Meet in Santry. I think those are decent enough numbers.

The issue isnt one of elitism; but I do think the fact it is restricted to club members cuts down the numbers of potential runners.

Overall doesn't look the worst but when you think there was 18 mens events you are talking 7 people per race which would be okay for laned events but the bulk of these were in the 800s and 5000m meaning that there was no space issue for this.

Would also be interesting to see roughly what percentage of males who are members of Dublin clubs that represents (I know people travel for these races but for the sake of argument will stick to Dublin clubs for the sake of ruling out travelling as being a factor)

Jim Rockford

ecoli wrote: »

Saw this on letsrun;


Normally don't read too much into these types of articles as I have always been part of the brigade trying to promote the sport to the masses but I think there are some excellent points made here.

There has been no correlation between the rise in marathon running over the past decade and the rise in popularity of athletics. Membership numbers are at an all time high yet attendance levels at National Seniors and indeed Euro Team Championships were fairly abysmal.

Should the niche element be focused on to prevent tradition and the things which make the sport appealing to those of us who follow it. Success will breed the casual fans but other than that should the focus lie on those already with an interest?

The lack of quality tracks and facilities has to be part of this. Sports clubs getting grants for football/rugby/soccer fields, should also have been conditioned to provide some athletic facilities as well. It would have been a win win.

Tombo2001

I think what would work very well in athletics is a team event, for example where for a given distance, say 1500m, you enter 6 people.....allow everybody run once and then points awarded based on time; and added on to that an individual final for the heat winners/ fastest losers.

Its quite notable how few some of the large Dublin clubs particularly have participating at the gradeds....

RayCun

ecoli wrote: »

Would also be interesting to see roughly what percentage of males who are members of Dublin clubs that represents

about 2800 senior/masters athletes in Dublin at the start of June. Some juveniles would also be eligible, and there's some culchies at the graded meets too.
Call it 5% of Dublin club members at a graded meet

can you imagine if twice that number turned up at the next meet?

ecoli

Jim Rockford wrote: »

The lack of quality tracks and facilities has to be part of this. Sports clubs getting grants for football/rugby/soccer fields, should also have been conditioned to provide some athletic facilities as well. It would have been a win win.

There has been huge upgrades in facilities in recent years - tracks in Letterkenny, Greystones, Lexlip, Tallaght, AIT (indoor and out) are just to name a few off the top of my head but there hasn't been a correlation so I don't think we can blame it all on facilities.

Jim Rockford

ecoli wrote: »

There has been huge upgrades in facilities in recent years - tracks in Letterkenny, Greystones, Lexlip, Tallaght, AIT (indoor and out) are just to name a few off the top of my head but there hasn't been a correlation so I don't think we can blame it all on facilities.

I don't recall anyone "blaming it all on facilities" as you claim - This type of misquoting and hyperbole is part of the problem in athletics. Concentrating on large towns is not really enough, it needs to involve local communities as well. The GAA built there phenomenal success on having a pitch and team in every parish, not large towns.

RayCun

Jim Rockford wrote: »

The lack of quality tracks and facilities has to be part of this. Sports clubs getting grants for football/rugby/soccer fields, should also have been conditioned to provide some athletic facilities as well. It would have been a win win.

The grants are given out to the clubs that apply, and for specific projects. If a football club has a proposal in for developing pitches, they get the money or they don't, it isn't given conditional on them also developing an athletics track.

Jim Rockford

RayCun wrote: »

The grants are given out to the clubs that apply, and for specific projects. If a football club has a proposal in for developing pitches, they get the money or they don't, it isn't given conditional on them also developing an athletics track.

read it again there

RayCun

:rolleyes:

There is no sense in telling a football club that their pitch grant is conditional on them also building a track. If a football club and an athletics club make a joint proposal for a pitch with a track around it, that's a different matter.

Jim Rockford

RayCun wrote: »

:rolleyes:

There is no sense in telling a football club that their pitch grant is conditional on them also building a track. If a football club and an athletics club make a joint proposal for a pitch with a track around it, that's a different matter.

Public funded facilities in small rural communities should not be for the exclusive use of that private sporting club only. Sharing is caring, as kids are taught. The government can't be expected to fund separate faculties for sporting activities in rural areas.

RayCun

Jim Rockford wrote: »

Public funded facilities in small rural communities should not be for the exclusive use of that private sporting club only. Sharing is caring, as kids are taught.

So a joint submission should be looked on favourably. And if the land is publicly-held, the relevant council should consider the different elements of the public that want to use it, whether that's other sports, or walkers, or people who want a playground or parkland.
But if a club owns their own land and applies for a grant to develop their own facility, that application should be assessed on its own merits.

ChickenTikka

Jim Rockford wrote: »

Public funded facilities in small rural communities should not be for the exclusive use of that private sporting club only. Sharing is caring, as kids are taught. The government can't be expected to fund separate faculties for sporting activities in rural areas.

The Sports Capital Program is the normal mechanism for clubs to receive grant funding from the State. One of its requirements is that you own or have a long lease on the site. I think this may be one of the reasons why the lions share of the funds went to GAA clubs in the past as typically they owned their site and many athletics clubs probably don't.

The 2014 program had a new requirement that favoured sharing facilities between groups ... whereby the main applicant would have a legal license in place with the group(s) sharing. That's the first time that was required ... prior to that an organisation would just get letters of support from other organisations which are hardly worth the paper they are written on. So hopefully that will change the situation in terms of how public money is spent and who benefits.

Excerpt from http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/sport/english/2014-sports-capital-programme-guide-filling-out-application-form/2014-sports-capital-programme-guide-filling-out-application-form_0.pdf :-

Applications from clubs/community groups will gain additional marks by demonstrating availability of the facility for schools or wider community sports groups. Evidence of this sharing must be provided in the form of formal agreements (e.g. a licence agreement signed by the clubs, school and/or other community sports groups) that will allow local school and/or community sports groups to use the proposed facilities throughout the year when it is not being used by the club itself.

Tombo2001

Its interesting to look at the Morton Games results where for example there are an A,B,C and D in Mens and an A&B in Womens.

The low participation of Dublin clubs in these races is quite striking. For example Togher in Cork have four male athletes participating, St Abbans in Laois are well represented. Some of the larger Dublin clubs did not enter anyone.

ultrapercy

The Fingal 10k on the same weekend as Nat T+F? Surely the Calander should be completely cleared for the Big Athletic events if numbers are to be attracted. It might not make a huge difference but it would at least give proper respect to the blue ribbon event. There are a number of other AAI backed road races on around the country this weekend also, as well as the 24 hour champs.

average_runner

ultrapercy wrote: »

The Fingal 10k on the same weekend as Nat T+F? Surely the Calander should be completely cleared for the Big Athletic events if numbers are to be attracted. It might not make a huge difference but it would at least give proper respect to the blue ribbon event. There are a number of other AAI backed road races on around the country this weekend also, as well as the 24 hour champs.

Would love them to explain that, but i doubt they ever would!! Decisions like this are so stupid

RayCun

ultrapercy wrote: »

The Fingal 10k on the same weekend as Nat T+F? Surely the Calander should be completely cleared for the Big Athletic events if numbers are to be attracted.

Competitors or spectators? Do you think there's much overlap?
(think the Fingal 10k is on at 10am, and the Sunday programme doesn't start until the afternoon, so you could run one and watch the other if you have a mind to do it)

Would you extend the same principle to the Indoor Champs? Cross country champs? No provincial events on the same day as provincial champs?

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

Competitors or spectators? Do you think there's much overlap?
(think the Fingal 10k is on at 10am, and the Sunday programme doesn't start until the afternoon, so you could run one and watch the other if you have a mind to do it)

Would you extend the same principle to the Indoor Champs? Cross country champs? No provincial events on the same day as provincial champs?

The 10,000m track is on the sat at 4pm, surely some of these lads would of done the 10k road race also?

This would be like Dublin in the All Ireland final and having Dublin club final on at the same time! But that doesnt happen.

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

The 10,000m track is on the sat at 4pm, surely some of these lads would of done the 10k road race also?

This would be like Dublin in the All Ireland final and having Dublin club final on at the same time! But that doesnt happen.

If you're a club footballer you'd be expected to turn out for both of those games (if selected). A good enough 10k runner would be expected to turn out for their club in the nationals, but the Fingal 10k is just another road race, there's one on every weekend. It's not like the dublin road 10k champs and national track 10k champs are clashing.

ultrapercy

RayCun wrote: »

Competitors or spectators? Do you think there's much overlap?
(think the Fingal 10k is on at 10am, and the Sunday programme doesn't start until the afternoon, so you could run one and watch the other if you have a mind to do it)

Would you extend the same principle to the Indoor Champs? Cross country champs? No provincial events on the same day as provincial champs?

I think for the major AAI events( Nat senior T+F XC and major road champs and relays) that it would send out the right message to clear the decks of other AAI backed events. Im not sure it would have much impact on attendances but it might have some.

Chivito550

ultrapercy wrote: »

I think for the major AAI events( Nat senior T+F XC and major road champs and relays) that it would send out the right message to clear the decks of other AAI backed events. Im not sure it would have much impact on attendances but it might have some.

Agreed. National Outdoors, Indoors, Cross-Country and Marathon championships (the main championships) should not clash with any other AAI sanctioned events. It's a matter of giving the events the respect that they deserve.

Just for interest sake, are there any other AAI sanctioned events on the day of Dublin Marathon?

RayCun

ultrapercy wrote: »

I think for the major AAI events( Nat senior T+F XC and major road champs and relays) that it would send out the right message to clear the decks of other AAI backed events. Im not sure it would have much impact on attendances but it might have some.

As ecoli said upthread, all you'll achieve is to have 6 weekends a year where the field is open for non-AAI backed races.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just for interest sake, are there any other AAI sanctioned events on the day of Dublin Marathon?

The calendar doesn't go that far ahead... Looking back, there was a (Dublin) BHAA race on the same weekend as the national 10k, 5k and 10k road races in Dublin on the same weekend as the national Novices XC, BHAA XC on the same day as the national Indoors, there's a 10k in Dublin on the same day as the national half marathon, and there was a fun run in Griffeen park on the same day as the national road relays.

Most road race organisers, in the Dublin area at least, aren't going to put in a request for a race on the same weekend as the marathon - or a weekend either side, I'd imagine - because they know that a large chunk of their potential entrants are going to be involved.

happygoose

In terms of athletes participating there is no overlap between the National T&F and the Fingal 10k, the former is for elites, the latter is a fun run, the only reason you've ever sub 32 guys in the Fingal 10k is for an envelope at the end of it all. To use the GAA comparison its like a clash between an Intercounty Championship match and a Junior B match, there is no real issue.

In terms of support I think it dovetails nicely with the AI Championships. Rest on Saturday and flake out in Santry, head over on Sunday after the Fingal 10k, its only a couple of miles away, bring the gear, tell them you're competing, get free entry and have your shower there

RayCun

last year the Leinster Novice, Masters, and Even Age XC championships were on the day before the marathon

happygoose

RayCun wrote: »

last year the Leinster Novice, Masters, and Even Age XC championships were on the day before the marathon

That is a ridiculous fixture every year, there was a motion to move them put to the Leinster Board this year and they refused to move it.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

If you're a club footballer you'd be expected to turn out for both of those games (if selected). A good enough 10k runner would be expected to turn out for their club in the nationals, but the Fingal 10k is just another road race, there's one on every weekend. It's not like the dublin road 10k champs and national track 10k champs are clashing.

It just doesn't happen in other sports Ray, there be no other club matches around Ireland at the time of All Ireland Final!!

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

It just doesn't happen in other sports Ray, there be no other club matches around Ireland at the time of All Ireland Final!!

because all the GAA people are in the pub!

I don't think it makes any difference to the attendance. The marathon is the only athletics event in Ireland that gets a lot of spectators, and that's not because people are more interested in Sean Hehir and Maria McCambridge than Thomas Barr and Kelly Proper.

ultrapercy

RayCun wrote: »

As ecoli said upthread, all you'll achieve is to have 6 weekends a year where the field is open for non-AAI backed races.

Yes I accept that is the case. The whole permit system needs an overhaul. I dont now what the answer is but I just believe that the governing body of the sport of athletics in the country should be seen to uphold and support the major National events, even if it is just a symbolic gesture.You are right tho in saying it is not the solution to low attendance and participation in T+F but it may be a start.

average_runner

ultrapercy wrote: »

Yes I accept that is the case. The whole permit system needs an overhaul. I dont now what the answer is but I just believe that the governing body of the sport of athletics in the country should be seen to uphold and support the major National events, even if it is just a symbolic gesture.You are right tho in saying it is not the solution to low attendance and participation in T+F but it may be a start.

I used to attend this event, but there is a massive issue with parking. Kids too young for it at the moment, but maybe when they get older I bring them to it.

RayCun

I think there are better ways to do it. Parking is one issue - at the Morton Games they had parking on the grass in the park. Might not be able to do that for the whole weekend, but maybe something could be arranged in a local industrial estate, or cheap parking in the hotel? Encourage clubs to travel en masse by offering a club booking, 100 euro (or something) for as many club members as you like?

RayCun

the point is, there's a lot of people who are nominally in the audience for this event, but really aren't. They're not out there thinking, "ooh, the Nationals, must go to that - oh, darn it, I've got the Fingal 10k that weekend". The nationals just aren't on their radar. If the Fingal 10k was on the week before or after next year (did it clash last year?) it would make no difference to the attendance n Santry.
I don't think there is any doubt that the AAI supports national competition, so symbolic gestures of support are worthless. And banning AAI-supported races on the same weekends as national competitions is damaging, because it's giving the advantage to carpetbaggers and making things harder for clubs.