Cork City boundary extension

AugustusMinimus

mire wrote: »

A Merger would kill the city. It would effectively be the County (with its conservative, rural, anti-city perspective) taking over the city. They'd have put the event centre in Milstreet and the Pairc in Mallow. The balance of power would be anti-urban. We need a big urban metro authority of about 250,000 and a strong county of about 250,000.

Limerick and Waterford no longer have City authorities [they have symbolic 'metropolitan districts' with little or no powers]. They were duped and they know it. I wouldn't be following their leads at all. Two cities in real crisis. Cork is 15 years ahead of those two places. It's a proper city and shoudl have ambition to remain one.

A merger indeed would be one of the worst possible things that could happen. In addition, a merger would create a single county council overseeing a population in excess of 500,000. This would make it the largest county council area by far. It would simply be far too large.

My view is that Cork City should take in all surrounding environs, including Ballincollig, Carrigaline, Glanmire, Tower and Blarney. I would even consider taking Ringaskiddy and Little Island in due to the industrial output of both areas.

To ease Cork County Council's mind, a yearly rebate each year would be paid by Cork City Council to Cork County Council in order to make up for loss of rates and other such funding. Obviously such a rebate shouldn't entirely cover the total loss of revenue.

It is absolutely madness at the moment though that the city proper comprises less than half of what should actually comprise the city.

hoodwinked

namloc1980 wrote: »

Most households in Douglas have 3+ cars?? Get outta here!

i know it's hard to believe but a lot do, with adult children living at home longer you have the mother's car, fathers car and the adult child's car, i know one house with a drive big enough for 1 car while the family have 4 cars, so 3 are always parked on the road. (two adult children who drive)

rebs23 wrote: »

In more recent times there is definitely a move back to the city, hence the higher prices for houses near the city centre.
The situation of houses being developed in outlying areas is not good planning policy and has lead to all sorts of problems. It was not a choice to move out, there was simply no choice. Just a guess but most Cork people seem to recognise the need for a new Cork city boundary or an amalgamation of the the two councils.

i agree there was not good planning when it came to developing suburbs around cork, traffic issues are the most visible problems, but quite a substantial amount of people chose to move to places like Douglas, Ballincollig, and Glanmire...etc rather than live in the city.

the problem was as the fields that once surrounded these area's were built on they were building tiny houses with tiny gardens and apartments in these area's, and along with the extortionate prices charged for these they pushed people further afield again to Carrigaline/Crosshaven/Tower/Passage west/Ovens...etc not back into the city. people in general will move outwards, and i feel if they do extend out to include Douglas/carrigaline into the city places like crosshaven/and up by the airport/ballygarven..etc will see the same housing estates popping up in their area's that happened in douglas from the 50's/60's onwards,

while you do see a few people wanting to live in Cork city, the reality is most most people look to buy in urban county area's. such as Douglas/Ballincollig it's why prices were so high in these area's and they became so over developed. there was a huge demand.

they were near the city but you were still "in the country". best of both worlds,

zetalambda

namloc1980 wrote: »

What relationship do you think there is between Bus Eireann fares and local authority boundaries?

It's a conspiracy!

the dark phantom

Dumb de dumb de dumb.. Seems the worse solution is the popular one amongst our councillors.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/super-council-planned-for-cork-320128.html

KCAccidental

County councillors to be fair. I can understand where they are coming from to an extent, they dont want to lose the big rates they get from the harbour and suburbs, but they have been leeching off the suburbs to the detriment of the city as a whole for so long now and it just can't go on.

To be a proper counterbalance to Dublin, Cork city has to be able to advertise it's population in a more realistic manner then before. We had the farcical situation in the 2006 census of the city population falling during the widespread flight to the suburbs. Something has to be done to counteract that, so that the city can be properly recognised as a major economic centre in the country.

I can see this issue ending with a ministerial decree rather than agreement between the councils.

CHealy

KCAccidental wrote: »

I can see this issue ending with a ministerial decree rather than agreement between the councils.

Should be done now rather than wait for the clowns to try and decide. This requires real governance and the minister should pull out the finger and tell them whats what. Its a simple decision really, a Cork Metropolitan area has to be created to include the true population of the city.

CHealy

Sense from the lads in City Hall.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/council-wants-to-double-citys-population-with-boundary-extension/

Roger Hassenforder

the dark phantom wrote: »

In an extraordinary stupid move even by Irish standards, Carrigaline got divided alone its river by the new municipal districts !! It originally never had its own UDC/or Town Council even though it has roughly 14'000 people according to census2011, Local democracy and administration paddy style is just wonderful..

Rivers are traditionally used as boundaries. The Tramore forms part of the city/county boundary to the south of the city.

ongarboy

Even if there are to remain separate city and county administered councils, I think there should be an official Cork Metropolitan area boundary for marketing the city at home and abroad for investment etc and for census population purposes. The census already counts the continuous built up area of Cork to be around 200,000 as of 2011 even though the official city limit population (ie not including Douglas etc) is only 119000 and shrinking each census. This makes Cork seem a much smaller city at first glance. Limerick city suffers the same fate in this regard.

Since the abolition of Urban District Councils (UDCs) in all other counties, the towns now are part of county councils but still have distinct municipal boundaries for administration purposes. The towns didn't just disappear with the elimination of the UDCs. Perhaps something similar should be set up for the urban cities of Ireland.

Reputable Rog

CHealy wrote: »

Sense from the lads in City Hall.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/council-wants-to-double-citys-population-with-boundary-extension/

As opposed to non sensical for the members of the County Council to try and defend the interests of the county.
If the City gets its way it will be a massive disadvantage for the remainder of the county outside of the metro.

the dark phantom

Reputable Rog wrote: »

As opposed to non sensical for the members of the County Council to try and defend the interests of the county.
If the City gets its way it will be a massive disadvantage for the remainder of the county outside of the metro.

Why would it be ? The County Council would be looking after the county areas and towns which is exactly what its purpose should be rather then feeding off the cities environs.

The reason we have two councils is exactly so the county council can look after the county and the city council can look after the city. :cool:

the dark phantom

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Rivers are traditionally used as boundaries. The Tramore forms part of the city/county boundary to the south of the city.

Carrigaline simply shouldn't be divided between two municipal councils and electoral areas.

Carrigaline's river goes through the centre of Carrigaline wheareas the Tramore River skirts to the south of Cork City.

CHealy

Reputable Rog wrote: »

As opposed to non sensical for the members of the County Council to try and defend the interests of the county.
If the City gets its way it will be a massive disadvantage for the remainder of the county outside of the metro.

And rightly so, it's a disgrace that as the states second city our official population is a mere 119,00 when in reality its closer to quarter of a million. Makes a big difference when company's are looking to locate here and Cork needs to grow even bigger as an economic hub to that outside of Dublin.

Roger Hassenforder

the dark phantom wrote: »

Carrigaline simply shouldn't be divided between two municipal councils and electoral areas.

Carrigaline's river goes through the centre of Carrigaline wheareas the Tramore River skirts to the south of Cork City.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Tramore River skirts to the south of the city because that's where they decided to set the boundary...at the Tramore River...

I'm not arguing with you by the way, only saying rivers make natural boundary markers!

Ludo

Same with Bray. North of the town on one side of the river in County Dublin, rest of the town to the south of the river in County Wicklow.

Reputable Rog

CHealy wrote: »

And rightly so, it's a disgrace that as the states second city our official population is a mere 119,00 when in reality its closer to quarter of a million. Makes a big difference when company's are looking to locate here and Cork needs to grow even bigger as an economic hub to that outside of Dublin.

No in reality it's 152,000. Ballincollig, Midleton, Carrigaline are not in the Cork Urban Area. There is clear open country side between them and the City.

AugustusMinimus

That is incorrect. The population of the cork urban area is 198,000

Reputable Rog

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

That is incorrect. The population of the cork urban area is 198,000

That would depend on what you define as the Cork Urban Area. If you combine the city proper with the contiguous area in the county you get 152,000.
The County are willing to concede this area plus a few thousand acres of green belt to allow the City to grow to 200,000.

AugustusMinimus

Reputable Rog wrote: »

That would depend on what you define as the Cork Urban Area. If you combine the city proper with the contiguous area in the county you get 152,000.
The County are willing to concede this area plus a few thousand acres of green belt to allow the City to grow to 200,000.

I'm sorry but all stats show the figure being 198k. If you have any evidence of this 152k figure I'd love to see it.

cgcsb

I don't think any Irish City needs to grow outwards at this stage.

rebs23

Reputable Rog wrote: »

No in reality it's 152,000. Ballincollig, Midleton, Carrigaline are not in the Cork Urban Area. There is clear open country side between them and the City.

That is utter rubbish. The population of Cork City and suburbs is 198'000 according to the 2011 census and this excludes Carrigaline, Carrigtohill, Passage West and all the outlying towns. Look at the map, http://census.cso.ie/areaprofiles/PDF/ST/corkcityandsuburbs.pdf
If you include all the outlying suburban areas including Cobh, Midleton, etc the urban population within a radius of 20 miles from the city centre reaches 380,000 people. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Cork
The total population of Cork City and County is 520,000.
You really don't know Cork that well.

Reputable Rog

rebs23 wrote: »

That is utter rubbish. The population of Cork City and suburbs is 198'000 according to the 2011 census and this excludes Carrigaline, Carrigtohill, Passage West and all the outlying towns. Look at the map, http://census.cso.ie/areaprofiles/PDF/ST/corkcityandsuburbs.pdf
If you include all the outlying suburban areas including Cobh, Midleton, etc the urban population within a radius of 20 miles from the city centre reaches 380,000 people. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Cork
The total population of Cork City and County is 520,000.
You really don't know Cork that well

http://www.corkcocodevplan.com/images/documents/stage1/213717622.pdf
289,000 according to this doc in the Metro.
Believe me I know a lot more about the governance of the region than you.

AugustusMinimus

Reputable Rog wrote: »

rebs23 wrote: »

That is utter rubbish. The population of Cork City and suburbs is 198'000 according to the 2011 census and this excludes Carrigaline, Carrigtohill, Passage West and all the outlying towns. Look at the map, http://census.cso.ie/areaprofiles/PDF/ST/corkcityandsuburbs.pdf
If you include all the outlying suburban areas including Cobh, Midleton, etc the urban population within a radius of 20 miles from the city centre reaches 380,000 people. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Cork
The total population of Cork City and County is 520,000.
You really don't know Cork that well

http://www.corkcocodevplan.com/images/documents/stage1/213717622.pdf
289,000 according to this doc in the Metro.
Believe me I know a lot more about the governance of the region than you.

The 152k figure you quote isn't anywhere in that document.

The 198k figure includes Ballincollig (rightfully or wrongly) but includes Glanmire and Little Island (correctly in my view). Remove Ballincollig (population of 17,000) and you are down to 181k.

54kroc

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The 152k figure you quote isn't anywhere in that document.

The 198k figure includes Ballincollig (rightfully or wrongly) but includes Glanmire and Little Island (correctly in my view). Remove Ballincollig (population of 17,000) and you are down to 181k.

Just curious why you say Glanmire and Little Island are correctly included and Ballincollig is rightfully of wrongly included, why wouldn't it be the same as Glanmire?

AugustusMinimus

54kroc wrote: »

Just curious why you say Glanmire and Little Island are correctly included and Ballincollig is rightfully of wrongly included, why wouldn't it be the same as Glanmire?

Well in my mind, both Little Island and Glanmire are now effectively attached to the city. They would be completely attached but for the geography of the area (The Glashaboy River and the Sea doesn't allow much development between them.)

Ballincollig is a bit different with more open space between it and the city. I'd have no issue at all though seeing it brought within the city. I know on the continent, a lot of cities would encompass out lying settlements like Ballincollig and Carrigaline are presently.

Reputable Rog

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Well in my mind, both Little Island and Glanmire are now effectively attached to the city. They would be completely attached but for the geography of the area (The Glashaboy River and the Sea doesn't allow much development between them.)

Ballincollig is a bit different with more open space between it and the city. I'd have no issue at all though seeing it brought within the city. I know on the continent, a lot of cities would encompass out lying settlements like Ballincollig and Carrigaline are presently.

How do you know this? In France they don't , they don't in Belgium or Spain. They started doing it last year in Italy I'll give you that.
Local Government in Europe is even more fragmented than here.

rebs23

http://www.corkcocodevplan.com/images/documents/stage1/213717622.pdf
289,000 according to this doc in the Metro.
Believe me I know a lot more about the governance of the region than you.[/QUOTE]

You're not displaying your knowledge of governance in the region very well when you can't even get the population figures right for Cork City and suburbs. Still haven't produced link for your ridiculous claim of a population of 151,000 which kind of destroys your claim of knowing what can or cannot be considered in the context of a City boundary extension or what suburban areas of Cork City should be included in a boundary extension.

Reputable Rog

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/781930758.pdf. Pages 359-361. Cork North and South Environs.

rebs23

Reputable Rog wrote: »

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/781930758.pdf. Pages 359-361. Cork North and South Environs.

I think you will find the key word there "environs" which is the area surrounding the city and excluding the city council area. What point are you trying to prove with that link?
It is as simple as this the Central Statistics Ofiice, link provided already states the population of Cork City and suburbs is 198,000.
Many people however would consider that areas such as Carrigaline, Passage West, Carrigtohill, Blarney, Tower and possibly even Cobh or Midleton which are urban areas that ring the City and suburbs (but currently not enumerated as being suburbs by the CSO) should be included in any city boundary extension thereby giving the city the space for expansion and ensure that we won't have the same problem in 20 years time where the city boundary does not accurately reflect the actual population of the city.

A proper extension of the city boundary to capture all the current urban centres that are close and ring the city would see a new Cork City with a population of between 250,000 to 300,000 people and would cater for future expansion and growth.
As it stands Cork City and the surrounding urban area is larger than the combined populations of Waterford, Limerick and Galway City and suburbs and we need a proper extension to reflect the actual urban population of Cork so we can secure much needed public and private investment.

Roger Hassenforder

rebs23 wrote: »

I think you will find the key word there "environs" which is the area surrounding the city and excluding the city council area. What point are you trying to prove with that link?
It is as simple as this the Central Statistics Ofiice, link provided already states the population of Cork City and suburbs is 198,000.
Many people however would consider that areas such as Carrigaline, Passage West, Carrigtohill, Blarney, Tower and possibly even Cobh or Midleton which are urban areas that ring the City and suburbs (but currently not enumerated as being suburbs by the CSO) should be included in any city boundary extension thereby giving the city the space for expansion and ensure that we won't have the same problem in 20 years time where the city boundary does not accurately reflect the actual population of the city.

A proper extension of the city boundary to capture all the current urban centres that are close and ring the city would see a new Cork City with a population of between 250,000 to 300,000 people and would cater for future expansion and growth.
As it stands Cork City and the surrounding urban area is larger than the combined populations of Waterford, Limerick and Galway City and suburbs and we need a proper extension to reflect the actual urban population of Cork so we can secure much needed public and private investment.

you think the city should be extended out to Midleton?:rolleyes:
Why not Mallow and Bandon while you are at it?