Cork City boundary extension

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

you think the city should be extended out to Midleton?:rolleyes:
Why not Mallow and Bandon while you are at it?

Because Mallow and Bandon are less integrally and functionally connected to the city proper than Midleton is. In commuting, accessibility, economic terms, Midleton is becoming more and more integrated with the city than those places. Mainly because if its very strong transport connectivity.

rebs23

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

you think the city should be extended out to Midleton?:rolleyes:
Why not Mallow and Bandon while you are at it?

I only said possibly about Cobh and Midleton. Just think any extension needs to be big enough to last 50'years. Cobh and Midleton with the commuter rail service and their closeness to the city would justify being included in a boundary extension. Politically however that is probably not going to happen which is a pity.
In fairness abandon and Mallow are much further out.

Reputable Rog

rebs23 wrote: »

I think you will find the key word there "environs" which is the area surrounding the city and excluding the city council area. What point are you trying to prove with that link?
It is as simple as this the Central Statistics Ofiice, link provided already states the population of Cork City and suburbs is 198,000.
Many people however would consider that areas such as Carrigaline, Passage West, Carrigtohill, Blarney, Tower and possibly even Cobh or Midleton which are urban areas that ring the City and suburbs (but currently not enumerated as being suburbs by the CSO) should be included in any city boundary extension thereby giving the city the space for expansion and ensure that we won't have the same problem in 20 years time where the city boundary does not accurately reflect the actual population of the city.

A proper extension of the city boundary to capture all the current urban centres that are close and ring the city would see a new Cork City with a population of between 250,000 to 300,000 people and would cater for future expansion and growth.
As it stands Cork City and the surrounding urban area is larger than the combined populations of Waterford, Limerick and Galway City and suburbs and we need a proper extension to reflect the actual urban population of Cork so we can secure much needed public and private investment.

North and south environs are the built up area of Cork City under the jurisdiction of Cork County Council. Combined with the city proper this forms the Cork a Urban Area.

Reputable Rog

rebs23 wrote: »

I only said possibly about Cobh and Midleton. Just think any extension needs to be big enough to last 50'years. Cobh and Midleton with the commuter rail service and their closeness to the city would justify being included in a boundary extension. Politically however that is probably not going to happen which is a pity.
In fairness abandon and Mallow are much further out.

Mallow is 4 miles further from Cork than both Midleton and Queenstown, as is Bandon.

KCAccidental

It doesn't. nowhere in the document it cited did it say that only the environs and the city itself form a "Cork Urban Area".

Metropolitan Cork has been a definition used in countless studies of the city and its suburbs, including Ballincollig, Blarney/Tower, Glanmire and others to define an enlarged urban area. Read up on CASP and LUTS.

kub

There is a simple solution to this debate, draw the line wherever the City's Fire department get to a call out before their colleagues in the County do.

rebs23

Reputable Rog wrote: »

North and south environs are the built up area of Cork City under the jurisdiction of Cork County Council. Combined with the city proper this forms the Cork a Urban Area.

Am thanks for that... what's your point?

Roger Hassenforder

rebs23 wrote: »

I think you will find the key word there "environs" which is the area surrounding the city and excluding the city council area. What point are you trying to prove with that link?
It is as simple as this the Central Statistics Ofiice, link provided already states the population of Cork City and suburbs is 198,000.
Many people however would consider that areas such as Carrigaline, Passage West, Carrigtohill, Blarney, Tower and possibly even Cobh or Midleton which are urban areas that ring the City and suburbs (but currently not enumerated as being suburbs by the CSO) should be included in any city boundary extension thereby giving the city the space for expansion and ensure that we won't have the same problem in 20 years time where the city boundary does not accurately reflect the actual population of the city.

A proper extension of the city boundary to capture all the current urban centres that are close and ring the city would see a new Cork City with a population of between 250,000 to 300,000 people and would cater for future expansion and growth.
As it stands Cork City and the surrounding urban area is larger than the combined populations of Waterford, Limerick and Galway City and suburbs and we need a proper extension to reflect the actual urban population of Cork so we can secure much needed public and private investment.

Current population of Metropolitan Cork, as already stated in thread is 289,739.
Metropolitan Cork is City, North and South Environs, and the "satellite town" of Ballincollig, Blarney, Carrigaline, Carrigtohill, Cobh, Glanmire, Midleton and Passage West. http://epublications.snap.com.au/ebook/ebook?id=10040632#/0

Population of the city on its own is 119,230
http://epublications.snap.com.au/ebook/ebook?id=10036632#/18


Little talk of the green belt to the North of the City, the open space near Blarney. An Expansion of the City towards and to Tower, Blarney, , Ballincollig/Ovens, Whitechurch, Upper and lower Glanmire would spatially more than double the city's size. Increasing the spatial size of the City may not be a good thing. Why is there the need to grow out? Grow up. Design better. Urban sprawls with dependencies on roads are clearly not the answer.

Your use of the term "capture" is interesting. The expansion is what it is, a land grab, but more importantly, a grab for a share of the rate base Cork County enjoys. It's almost Putinesque!

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Current population of Metropolitan Cork, as already stated in thread is 289,739.
Metropolitan Cork is City, North and South Environs, and the "satellite town" of Ballincollig, Blarney, Carrigaline, Carrigtohill, Cobh, Glanmire, Midleton and Passage West. http://epublications.snap.com.au/ebook/ebook?id=10040632#/0

Population of the city on its own is 119,230
http://epublications.snap.com.au/ebook/ebook?id=10036632#/18


Little talk of the green belt to the North of the City, the open space near Blarney. An Expansion of the City towards and to Tower, Blarney, , Ballincollig/Ovens, Whitechurch, Upper and lower Glanmire would spatially more than double the city's size. Increasing the spatial size of the City may not be a good thing. Why is there the need to grow out? Grow up. Design better. Urban sprawls with dependencies on roads are clearly not the answer.

Your use of the term "capture" is interesting. The expansion is what it is, a land grab, but more importantly, a grab for a share of the rate base Cork County enjoys. It's almost Putinesque!

This last sentence about land grabs and Putin shows why this boundary extension needs to be sorted at a national level and how important it is to encourage a mature debate. Cork's boundary is 50 years out of date, and it shoudl have been changed many years ago.

The councils don't 'own' the land, they administer the territory. This childish land grab stuff has no place in a proper debate about Cork

j8wk2feszrnpao

What if these towns (Cobh, Midleton, Carrigaline) don't want to be part of the City boundaries?

Genuinely just asking the question, I can't say I've an issue either way.

mire

munstermagic11 wrote: »

What if these towns (Cobh, Midleton, Carrigaline) don't want to be part of the City boundaries?

Genuinely just asking the question, I can't say I've an issue either way.

It depends. How do you gauge this? A vote?

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

This last sentence about land grabs and Putin shows why this boundary extension needs to be sorted at a national level and how important it is to encourage a mature debate. Cork's boundary is 50 years out of date, and it shoudl have been changed many years ago.

The councils don't 'own' the land, they administer the territory. This childish land grab stuff has no place in a proper debate about Cork

apologies for offending your senior sensibilities with my childish comments.
However, not only do local authorities "administer" their functional areas, they also actually own parcels of land. its a bit more complicated see, but sure I'm only a child so you might have to explain it to me... :rolleyes:
(it is a land grab BTW!)

Why should this be sorted at a national level? By who, The Dail? Its a local issue. Abdication of decision to central authority is symptomatic of the current disconnect between local and central government. We've ratified the Lisbon (subsidiarity) treaty, but are one of the worst countries to implement it.

a A local plebiscite is probably the way to go, but should this vote be confined to areas potentially affected, or to the entire county as well? its a Cork issue and should be decided by Cork people.

j8wk2feszrnpao

mire wrote: »

It depends. How do you gauge this? A vote?

I've no idea. I guess each town would have it's own 'council/reps/admin' already in place that would have a good gauge of the people.

It just seems that there's an argument that it benefits the City to add these areas to its boundary, without thinking that maybe they don't want to be included.

Again, it wouldn't bother me either way (I suppose I don't know what impact it would lead to, either positive or negative); but I can imagine that others may be more inclined to be added/excluded.

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

apologies for offending your senior sensibilities with my childish comments.
However, not only do local authorities "administer" their functional areas, they also actually own parcels of land. its a bit more complicated see, but sure I'm only a child so you might have to explain it to me... :rolleyes:
(it is a land grab BTW!)

Why should this be sorted at a national level? By who, The Dail? Its a local issue. Abdication of decision to central authority is symptomatic of the current disconnect between local and central government. We've ratified the Lisbon (subsidiarity) treaty, but are one of the worst countries to implement it.

a A local plebiscite is probably the way to go, but should this vote be confined to areas potentially affected, or to the entire county as well? its a Cork issue and should be decided by Cork people.

When the debate descends to 'land grabbing accusations', it slips towards and irrelevant blather about lebelsraum, putinesque rubbish (your contribution) and childish jibes about who owns what. This matter has largely been ignored for the last 50 years because of that attitiude. Don't worry, I am not offended, but I'll admit that I find that stuff a bit depressing to read. It's so predictable.

BTW, it is not simply a 'local' issue and is in my opinion too important to be decided simply on the basis of knee jerk localist parish pump politics. This issue has been detrimental for Cork and it is an issue of national importance - Cork is the state's second city - it deserves a governing unit big enough to represent its metropolitan area.

Your point about land ownership is entirely irrelavant. When a boundary extension happens, one authority pays the other for any land and property transferred. In Ireland also, local authorities own very little land and property - relative to almost all countries in Europe. It's actually not an important issue at all. It's a techincal detail. Most cities expand their boundaries evry so often - it's what happens as cities expand. No big deal really.

Although a local plebiscite sounds interesting I think it is impractical and has no real precedent. Government is elected to make these types of decisions. I do agree though that Cork should influence the decision and should not allow itself to be subjected to bad decisions - like waterford and limerick for example.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

When the debate descends to 'land grabbing accusations', it slips towards and irrelevant blather about lebelsraum, putinesque rubbish (your contribution) and childish jibes about who owns what. This matter has largely been ignored for the last 50 years because of that attitiude. Don't worry, I am not offended, but I'll admit that I find that stuff a bit depressing to read. It's so predictable.

BTW, it is not simply a 'local' issue and is in my opinion too important to be decided simply on the basis of knee jerk localist parish pump politics. This issue has been detrimental for Cork and it is an issue of national importance - Cork is the state's second city - it deserves a governing unit big enough to represent its metropolitan area.

Your point about land ownership is entirely irrelavant. When a boundary extension happens, one authority pays the other for any land and property transferred. In Ireland also, local authorities own very little land and property - relative to almost all countries in Europe. It's actually not an important issue at all. It's a techincal detail. Most cities expand their boundaries evry so often - it's what happens as cities expand. No big deal really.

Although a local plebiscite sounds interesting I think it is impractical and has no real precedent. Government is elected to make these types of decisions. I do agree though that Cork should influence the decision and should not allow itself to be subjected to bad decisions - like waterford and limerick for example.

Leben...
But anyway, aside from the personal stuff, you wouldn't see it AH, your cliché ridden ramble reflects the democratic inversion we endure in Ireland.
We elect politicians to a national parliament to continuously engage primarily in parish pump politics to ensure their re-election, rather than legislate and debate national issues; and we elect local politicians to an effective talking shop, due to a failure to devolve powers. This issue should be decided by Cork, if it takes a plebiscite, so be it.
We're losing the run of ourselves making towns cities (Kilkenny anyone), and then growing out again into the country side, Yea, let it expand a bit, it's overdue, but lets not lose the run of ourselves, this talk of expanding to Ringaskiddy, Midleton etc is nuts.
The 2007 boundary proposal certainly didn't envisage these areas. East of Blarney, South of Whitechurch to glashaboy, slight kink around little island, down through harbour to Monkstown creek (excluding Carrigaline) poulavone roundabout (excluding ballincollig), along by Ballygarvan via waterfall. I.e., the land yes, the population no.

Precedents were once themselves unprecedented...

Frostybrew

I feel the best scenario for both councils would be the creation of a strong Cork Metropolitan County stretching from Ovens to Midleton, and from Blarney to Fountainstown. Essentially the original LUTS study area. This entire area is now urban in character separated only by short stretches of green belt.

The benefits outweigh the cons for both councils. Having a strong cohesive marketable urban area will be a huge boon to attracting inward investment, which will also benefit the county as jobs will be created leading to an expansion of commuter towns in the county area. Towns such as Mallow, Mitchelstown, Youghal, Bandon and Fermoy will benefit, leading to an increase in rates and revenue.

The biggest gain will be the existence of an urban council for an urban area and a rural council for a predominately rural one.

The county council will lose out in the short term due to the reduction in income, and a mechanism should be put in place to ease this transition.

rebs23

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Yea, let it expand a bit, it's overdue, but lets not lose the run of ourselves, this talk of expanding to Ringaskiddy, Midleton etc is nuts.

Letting it expand a bit will only mean in 20 years time the boundary we will be in the exact same position as we are now. A situation where the city boundary does not reflect the actual population of the City and Suburbs.
You are clearly in favour of a boundary extension so after that its a matter of opinion but whats best for Cork attracting inward investment both private and public?

What sounds better a City with a population of 198,000 (an extension to include all the areas the CSO define as the City and Suburbs) or a City with a population of say 298,000 (an extension to include all the outlying towns and suburban areas that are close and linked by a continuous urban corridor)?

Roger Hassenforder

rebs23 wrote: »

Letting it expand a bit will only mean in 20 years time the boundary we will be in the exact same position as we are now. A situation where the city boundary does not reflect the actual population of the City and Suburbs.
You are clearly in favour of a boundary extension so after that its a matter of opinion but whats best for Cork attracting inward investment both private and public?

What sounds better a City with a population of 198,000 (an extension to include all the areas the CSO define as the City and Suburbs) or a City with a population of say 298,000 (an extension to include all the outlying towns and suburban areas that are close and linked by a continuous urban corridor)?

I'm in favour of that which makes Cork a better place to live, not a desire to have the population reach some figure. That's what is so attractive about Cork, it's small and compact, isn't a Dublin sprawl. An expansion is needed, but I fear this quality will be lost.
I suppose I'd be in favour of a stronger regional authority with properly devolved powers that advocates on behalf of both.

Apple et al. didn't set up in Cork because the population of the city was whatever it was back then

alaimacerc

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I'm in favour of that which makes Cork a better place to live, not a desire to have the population reach some figure. That's what is so attractive about Cork, it's small and compact, isn't a Dublin sprawl. An expansion is needed, but I fear this quality will be lost.

But it's not as if the modest existing amount of sprawl magically stops at the city boundary: the contiguous suburbs haven't exactly been tightly constrained by the CoCo, either. (I live in one of them, and any human geographer watching from 10,000ft would say it's part of the city in objective, organic terms.) Who is best placed to manage the "green belt" between those neighbourhoods and the exurbs/commuter towns seems to me to be highly arguable. A good planning policy would be a good start, though, regardless of which LA gets to play football with it.

Dannyboy83

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/billion-euro-loss-for-the-county-in-metropolitan-boundary-change/
In its submission the county council examined five separate options before recommending a single combined city and county council.
Option one was a do-nothing approach and maintaining the current boundary. Option two was the addition of urban areas directly connected to the city such as Douglas and parts of Ballyvolane. Option three adds the suburban areas of Ballincollig, Glanmire and Little Island to the city but keeps areas such as Carrigaline and Blarney in the county. Option four expands the city to cover the entire metropolitan area stretching from Ovens to Midleton and from Blarney to Ringaskiddy. The final option they examined was a fully combined city and county council.While favoured by County Hall a combined super council has been rejected by the city council. The chief executive of Cork City Council Ann Doherty said recently that a combined council would not allow the city of Cork to grow to its full potential.

I would be interested to hear the reasons why a combined super council is objectionable to the city council and why it would prevent Cork growing to it's full potential.

Does anyone have further info?

KCAccidental

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I would be interested to hear the reasons why a combined super council is objectionable to the city council and why it would prevent Cork growing to it's full potential.

Does anyone have further info?

City rates would be drained by having to budget for the entire county as well. It would paralyze the city. There is no local authority in the state that has to cater for a population any where near 480,000.

It makes me laugh to see the county council play the poor mouth on this. They have been leeching off of the immediate suburbs for years to the detriment of the City.

alaimacerc

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I would be interested to hear the reasons why a combined super council is objectionable to the city council and why it would prevent Cork growing to it's full potential.

Does anyone have further info?

None at all, but I'm guessing if you suggest this to a City politician, it sounds a lot like "we're abolishing the city council". Why, that'd be to imply Cork was no more super-special-snowflake than the likes of -- gasp! -- Waterford!

KCAccidental

alaimacerc wrote: »

None at all, but I'm guessing if you suggest this to a City politician, it sounds a lot like "we're abolishing the city council". Why, that'd be to imply Cork was no more super-special-snowflake than the likes of -- gasp! -- Waterford!

There is a hell of a lot of difference. For instance there are more people living in the Cork City council area alone than the entire population of the Waterford combined city & county council.


A single authority for a population of 480,000 people spread over an area of 7,500 km² would be the worst option by far. The city itself would suffer by having to divert funds to the upkeep of the far flung periphery areas of the county.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

for instance, Corks regional & local roads of which upkeep has to come from local authority budget accounts for about 1/9th of the total R & L roads in the entire state!



http://www.thejournal.ie/national-road-network-pq-1784448-Nov2014/

the roads issue alone is a big enough reason to not unite the councils.

Roger Hassenforder

KCAccidental wrote: »

City rates would be drained by having to budget for the entire county as well. It would paralyze the city. There is no local authority in the state that has to cater for a population any where near 480,000.

It makes me laugh to see the county council play the poor mouth on this. They have been leeching off of the immediate suburbs for years to the detriment of the City.

on a lap top, can finally post proposed expansion:


Funny they don't want Ballincollig or Carrigaline, but do want Little Island, the Airport when they want to grow the City's population...
Douglas, Togher, Glanmire and Frankfield should be part of the city though, makes no sense not to be.


interesting use of the term "leeches", wonder do you know where the leeches might actually be?
from: Report of the Local Government Efficiency Review Group
No. staff/1000 population at end of 2009
Cork City: 11.9
report notes: "an excessive level of senior management staffing when compared with levels nationally"
Cork County: 6.5

from 2008 to 2013, 879 staff have left Cork County Council — a 29.6% reduction. However, Cork City Council has seen its number drop by a more modest 263 employees — a drop of 17.2%. Ref. https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishexaminer.com%2Fireland%2Fstaff-levels-at-local-authorities-fall-25-234278.html&ei=9FwkVYO1ItX1auzZgPAO&usg=AFQjCNEIHK3I428_priFsyo0xw-2LwK_mg&sig2=6q_o8UUdF2bvLd4beFAFNg&bvm=bv.89947451,bs.1,d.ZGU


some comparable KPIs (albeit 2010) from here

% days lost as sickies:
City: 1.17
County: 0.89

Unaccounted for water:
City: 55.2%
County: 49.5%

Time to re-let housing stock:
City: 31.5weeks
County:16.3weeks

Drill into the stats, you'll see one organization is lean, comparable staffing levels, and fairly efficiently run, the other, well, not so...

I agree merging the two would be an absolute shambles. Rural needs are very different from Urban. You'd have Cllrs from Alihees rowing with Cllrs from Mayfield about road surfacing allocations V. housing repairs. There's an argument for absorbing Cork City into Carrigaline Municipal District all right...

alaimacerc

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

on a lap top, can finally post proposed expansion:

That's the old proposal, back from 2006. Unless I'm wildly misunderstanding!

Roger Hassenforder

alaimacerc wrote: »

That's the old proposal, back from 2006. Unless I'm wildly misunderstanding!

I think it's the same?
Can't find latest one

Dannyboy83

KCAccidental wrote: »

City rates would be drained by having to budget for the entire county as well.

This I don't understand.
The city and county budget will be combined, including the subvention, so it should lead to a net loss of 0.
What am I missing here?

The idea is that reducing duplication of roles within the two councils would lead to a much more cost effective single organisation.
Phil Hogan suggested such reforms would save the country almost half a billion euro by reducing the number of councillors by up to 40%.

It would paralyze the city. There is no local authority in the state that has to cater for a population any where near 480,000.

For years, examples such as Manchester in the UK have been used as something Cork or even Munster should aspire to.

The Greater Manchester Combined Authority combine 10 separate councils and serve a vastly larger population than Cork.

Minister for the Environment Alan Kelly:

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/LocalGovernmentReform/News/MainBody,40018,en.htm
“The option of unifying the city and county structures in Cork should also be considered in view of the potential benefits such as strengthening local government, elimination of administrative duplication, improved service delivery, greater efficiency, economies of scale and more cohesive and effective economic development,” said Mr Kelly

If the county and city council were combined into the Greater Cork Combined Authority, it may mean job losses.

Is it not a case of turkeys just not voting for xmas?

Reputable Rog

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

on a lap top, can finally post proposed expansion:


Funny they don't want Ballincollig or Carrigaline, but do want Little Island, the Airport when they want to grow the City's population...
Douglas, Togher, Glanmire and Frankfield should be part of the city though, makes no sense not to be.


interesting use of the term "leeches", wonder do you know where the leeches might actually be?
from: Report of the Local Government Efficiency Review Group
No. staff/1000 population at end of 2009
Cork City: 11.9
report notes: "an excessive level of senior management staffing when compared with levels nationally"
Cork County: 6.5

from 2008 to 2013, 879 staff have left Cork County Council — a 29.6% reduction. However, Cork City Council has seen its number drop by a more modest 263 employees — a drop of 17.2%. Ref. https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishexaminer.com%2Fireland%2Fstaff-levels-at-local-authorities-fall-25-234278.html&ei=9FwkVYO1ItX1auzZgPAO&usg=AFQjCNEIHK3I428_priFsyo0xw-2LwK_mg&sig2=6q_o8UUdF2bvLd4beFAFNg&bvm=bv.89947451,bs.1,d.ZGU


some comparable KPIs (albeit 2010) from here

% days lost as sickies:
City: 1.17
County: 0.89

Unaccounted for water:
City: 55.2%
County: 49.5%

Time to re-let housing stock:
City: 31.5weeks
County:16.3weeks

Drill into the stats, you'll see one organization is lean, comparable staffing levels, and fairly efficiently run, the other, well, not so...

I agree merging the two would be an absolute shambles. Rural needs are very different from Urban. You'd have Cllrs from Alihees rowing with Cllrs from Mayfield about road surfacing allocations V. housing repairs. There's an argument for absorbing Cork City into Carrigaline Municipal District all right...

Cork City would become a Metropolitan City District in the new Authority and will have its own separate budget and have its own elected body within the council do deal with Cork city matters.
The boundaries of the city will be revised to give the Metropolitan District greater population and land area and will probably be exactly the same land area the city are currently looking for.

Pablo Escobar

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I think it's the same?
Can't find latest one

It's not the same. The latest one is much wider:

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/billion-euro-loss-for-the-county-in-metropolitan-boundary-change/

Outkast_IRE

Hope the city boundary is simply extended, the county council is not fit for purpose in urban areas such as togher etc. The city does a far better job at maintenace of amenity sites and walks, grass cutting and regular cleanups of areas.