Cork City boundary extension

alaimacerc

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Hope the city boundary is simply extended, the county council is not fit for purpose in urban areas such as togher etc.

What offends against my sense of order -- what little's left with it at this stage! -- is that we have Togher Outside the Walls, and we have City Togher, too. Likewise with "Wilton". Ontological madness!

alaimacerc

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

It's not the same. The latest one is much wider:

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/billion-euro-loss-for-the-county-in-metropolitan-boundary-change/

Huh. Pretty wide, all right!

CHealy

Thats ridiculous haha. I'm all for a proper extension of the boundary but if thats what the city council are looking for, then I really can't blame the county for throwing the toys out.

KCAccidental

Yup, far too big in my opinion as well.

way too much rural land within that boundary, the councils road budget will be eaten up by trying to fix the roads to all the one off housing!

My own view is to take the immediate the suburbs like ballincollig, glanmire & carraigaline along with little island, Ringaskiddy and some rural land that can be zoned appropriately for future growth. Including Whitegate, Cobh and Midleton just isn't feasible.

something roughly like this. (Love to get the crayolas out)




The only thing I can assume is that the proposal above is a bargaining ploy. Start big and haggle your way to something acceptable.

rebs23

alaimacerc wrote: »

Huh. Pretty wide, all right!

It seems a realistic expansion if it is to last for the next 50 years.

Roger Hassenforder

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

It's not the same. The latest one is much wider:

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/billion-euro-loss-for-the-county-in-metropolitan-boundary-change/

that's metropolitan Cork Strategic Planning area, not the proposed expansion?

That's pulling the pish if the City thinks they can expand that much, roughly 1000% increase in land area? (very rough!)
That would make it spatially comparable in size to Dublin

namloc1980

The proposed boundary extension of the City submitted by the City Council:



Of course the County Council want a single amalgamated council area for the entire city and county which would be a terrible outcome.

Link

Dannyboy83

namloc1980 wrote: »

Of course the County Council want a single amalgamated council area for the entire city and county which would be a terrible outcome.
Link

While there are definitely certain drawbacks to a single amalgamated council area, there is 1 crucial advantage; with a single amalgamated council, it would near impossible for national government to resist an increase in powers for local government.

Two separate councils = two marginalised regions competing with 100 other regions in the country for resources, against Dublin which by virtue of it's population density will usually win.

Option i)
continue with the broken model inherited from the British, with the separate councils model, with weak local government, with paying massive amounts into the exchequer and subsidising the rest of the country outside Dublin;

continue with inadequate revenue raising abilities, remain marginalised as a 'region' & waiting until the National Government publish the 'National Planning Framework' & pray that they actually implement it this time unlike the National Spatial Strategy and it's many predecessors;

continue watching as Cabinet Ministers enrich their local parishes at the expense of the country; continue with the famine mentality and begging for the scraps of our own food off the National government's table

or

Option ii)
Abandon the broken British model in favour of a Swiss style model;
Unite the councils;
push hard for strong local government powers;
thereby providing a mechanism for local government to raise revenue, to plan long term spending & to allocate investment in the city and county,
thereby allowing us to decide ourselves what infrastructure will be developed and when;

Roger Hassenforder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

While there are definitely certain drawbacks to a single amalgamated council area, there is 1 crucial advantage; with a single amalgamated council, it would near impossible for national government to resist an increase in powers for local government.

Two separate councils = two marginalised regions competing with 100 other regions in the country for resources, against Dublin which by virtue of it's population density will usually win.

Option i)
continue with the broken model inherited from the British, with the separate councils model, with weak local government, with paying massive amounts into the exchequer and subsidising the rest of the country outside Dublin;

continue with inadequate revenue raising abilities, remain marginalised as a 'region' & waiting until the National Government publish the 'National Planning Framework' & pray that they actually implement it this time unlike the National Spatial Strategy and it's many predecessors;

continue watching as Cabinet Ministers enrich their local parishes at the expense of the country; continue with the famine mentality and begging for the scraps of our own food off the National government's table

or

Option ii)
Abandon the broken British model in favour of a Swiss style model;
Unite the councils;
push hard for strong local government powers;
thereby providing a mechanism for local government to raise revenue, to plan long term spending & to allocate investment in the city and county,
thereby allowing us to decide ourselves what infrastructure will be developed and when;

like the curate's egg there's good and bad here!
Agree with the gist of it, except the merger, i think that would be detrimental to local democracy. I agree re the need for greater devolution of authority, and for the need for LAs to be self financing, the need for the likes of the name of cute Kerry hoor politician deleted to be removed from national legislative parliaments. We should have a smaller National Parliment made of up elected members representing the votes of each LA, but each LA having greater autonomy. Turn current model upside down powers wise.

not sure where the 100 regions are, there's only 31 local authorities in Ireland?
The Swiss model of Canton>Muncipality>Commune model is very intricate.
They've 26 cantons; 3000 communes for a population of ~8million? Communes have a lot of devolved authority including revenue. It took until this year to ger the LPT for Ireland!

namloc1980

Looks like the amalgamation of the two council areas is going to be recommended by the working group. Although there is a split in the group of 5 with 3 in favour of a merger and 2 in favour of expanded city area.

Super Council merger is on

mire

namloc1980 wrote: »

Looks like the amalgamation of the two council areas is going to be recommended by the working group. Although there is a split in the group of 5 with 3 in favour of a merger and 2 in favour of expanded city area.

Super Council merger is on

The split is just as important news as the recommendation. The two academics strongly resisting the merger and releasing a minority report. This is extremely unusual, and a huge blow to those advocating the merger.

KCAccidental

I cannot believe that a merger is considered the best option. The article tells its on story about how the Dept of Environment pressured the group for that outcome. I'd rather see the (shoddy) status quo remain rather than amalgamation.

the dark phantom

mire wrote: »

The split is just as important news as the recommendation. The two academics strongly resisting the merger and releasing a minority report. This is extremely unusual, and a huge blow to those advocating the merger.

More proof Irish people can't organise anything in an efficient or purposeful manner.

mire

the dark phantom wrote: »

More proof Irish people can't organise anything in an efficient or purposeful manner.

Not the way I'd see it. It's an example of individuals deciding to have the courage of their own convictions and using evidence as a yardstick for decision making. It's to be welcomed. Would you prefer they all signed the bottom of the page. Yes Minister?

the dark phantom

mire wrote: »

Not the way I'd see it. It's an example of individuals deciding to have the courage of their own convictions and using evidence as a yardstick for decision making. It's to be welcomed. Would you prefer they all signed the bottom of the page. Yes Minister?

Like in Limericks case where they have the laughable situation of two mayors, Yes Dick...

Roger Hassenforder

interesting paper by Dr.Aodh Quinlivan and a few others:
http://www.corklocalgovernmentreview.ie/submissions/Dr%20Aodh%20Quinlivan,%20UCC.pdf


this should have been decided by plebiscite, not some sham review group, doing what they were told to do.

kub

Don't listen to the experts......bloody gobsh*ts. Were these simpletons appointed by FG?

As bad as the last Environment Minister was, Mr Hogan.....even he said an amalgamation of Cork City and Council was not really an option as the area was too big.
Remember there was a Dublin Corporation and County Council, look what they became.
Bloody yes men, the point here is just keep Cork down as in this now Cork City becomes even less significant.

mire

Cork City is being decommissioned; announcement very soon. This once proud city which has been governed as a city for over 830 years will be delivered into obscurity tomorrow at the hands of a Minister and his Civil Servants. In collusion with some Cork people too I might add.

What a sad day for Cork. Rebel city my hat.

Herb Powell

Heh???????

Savvy student

Sources??

316

John Spilliane is writing a song about it.

SouthernBelle

mire wrote: »

Cork City is being decommissioned; announcement very soon. This once proud city which has been governed as a city for over 830 years will be delivered into obscurity tomorrow at the hands of a Minister and his Civil Servants. In collusion with some Cork people too I might add.

What a sad day for Cork. Rebel city my hat.

Huh?

blindsider

Presume that this is the Cork city v county squabble.

Will be interesting to hear what the announcement is. Some of the decisions made recently - planning, roads, funding etc seem to have been pretty silly, so I'm not sure a merger would be any worse - except for those with vested interests.

I certainly would have no objection to e.g. city and county library services being merged. As a frequent library user, it's easy to see how efficiencies and better services could be offered - esp. if some costs could be saved.

This may not be a popular opinion, but there we go......

Separately, I wonder how e.g. Birmingham or Manchester manage to deliver decent services with 1 council and bigger populations.

mire

Press conference today in Cork. Not really sure that the library service should really be our benchmark to be honest. This is much bigger than that.

Manchester does not have 'one Council', this is a complete nonsense; it has a multitude of Councils governing the whole city region. With Manchester City Council at the centre. No one would argue that the Manchester City Council is abolished.

Subcomandante Marcos

mire wrote: »

Press conference today in Cork. Not really sure that the library service should really be our benchmark to be honest. This is much bigger than that.

Manchester does not have 'one Council', this is a complete nonsense; it has a multitude of Councils governing the whole city region. With Manchester City Council at the centre. No one would argue that the Manchester City Council is abolished.

Greater Manchester has a population or 2.5 million, Cork County has a population of 500k.

It's not really a like for like comparison.

my friend

mire wrote: »

Cork City is being decommissioned; announcement very soon. This once proud city which has been governed as a city for over 830 years will be delivered into obscurity tomorrow at the hands of a Minister and his Civil Servants. In collusion with some Cork people too I might add.

What a sad day for Cork. Rebel city my hat.

Rebel? You never were rebels, in fact you killed our greatest rebel.

The rebel in Cork dates back to Perkin Warbeck an imposter who pulled the wool over the corkonions eyes pretending to be heir to the English throne while Henry VII was king of England.

Cork folk should be embarrassed by the Rebel tag, it's actually a reminder of their naivety and gullibility from Warbeck times

mire

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Greater Manchester has a population or 2.5 million, Cork County has a population of 500k.

It's not really a like for like comparison.

Precisely. It's often used as a reason to argue in favour of reducing local government in Ireland, when in fact it's completely irrelevant.

The principle, however, is relevant. Manchester, as England's second city, would never allow its city to be dissolved and roll over to London like Cork is just about to, with Dublin.

Reputable Rog

mire wrote: »

Precisely. It's often used as a reason to argue in favour of reducing local government in Ireland, when in fact it's completely irrelevant.

The principle, however, is relevant. Manchester, as England's second city, would never allow its city to be dissolved and roll over to London like Cork is just about to, with Dublin.

I think people in Birmingham might have something to say about your assertion of Manchester being the second city.

StonyIron

The problem with this is that Co Cork is a very large rural area half the size of Northern Ireland.

If you merge the city and county local government, you're going to actually most likely cause a focus on the city and its surrounds with the rural areas being an after thought.

It could also result in the opposite where the city just becomes a big county town and is let fall apart.

This removes accountability, makes local government more remote and is totally contrary to the ideas pushed by the Council of Europe and others who look for subsiduarity (decisions made as locally as possible where possible).

Ireland is ripping out bits of democracy in the name of efficiency.

We'll lose the cheap bit that gives us some degree of control : councillors and keep the expensive bit : bureaucracts and administrators.

You can be damn sure there'll be no administration changes, just fewer pesky councillors to get in the way of the executive.

This is probably about watering down the cities' increasingly left wing councils by diluting them with rural conservative votes.

Typical FG gerrymandering.

FF did similar by stretching Cork North Central into rural Cork to ensure the Northside left wing voting patterns were "balanced" as they were losing seats.

This merger is a bad decision and if it's allowed to happen we'll be regretting it in 20 years when Cork is a sprawling mess and we're finding all our rates being spent elsewhere.

If Cork people don't make this an election issue, they've only themselves to blame for the death of their city.

Email your local TDs

The parliament is actually largely rural and from what I can see Ireland has a weird hostility towards anything urban.

I cannot think of any country, anywhere in the world that would abolish cities local governments at the stroke of a pen like this. It's actually mind boggling strange stuff.

Also this is not like merging Dublin City with the county bits. Dublin is a very small county which is heavily urban.

It's more like replacing Dublin City and it's 3 County Councils and creating County Pale by merging them with a huge rural area.

I can't see that happening anytime soon. In fact there isn't even any sign of merging Dub L Rathdown & South County Dublin.

Welcome to one city Ireland!
(Galway you're next for the chop btw... Committee already being formed)

Balmed Out

my friend wrote: »

Rebel? You never were rebels, in fact you killed our greatest rebel.

The rebel in Cork dates back to Perkin Warbeck an imposter who pulled the wool over the corkonions eyes pretending to be heir to the English throne while Henry VII was king of England.

Cork folk should be embarrassed by the Rebel tag, it's actually a reminder of their naivety and gullibility from Warbeck times

I think you'll find the origin of the tag isn't the entire history of it.
have you studied your war of independence you may find cork had a particularly important role but don't let anything get in the way of any ignorant misguided prejudices and dislikes You have.