Cork City boundary extension

StonyIron

The issue I'm seeing is rise of protest vote in the cities and the government responding to abolish them.

Cities will always be more avant guard with politics and always more left leaning because they have a very different dynamic and very different social issues to rural areas.

That's just life and it is very important that it's represented too.

I can almost guarantee this will mean an amorphous mess of a city with sprawl going every direction as the country / city divide becomes irrelevant.

It's also a petty decision because Cork County Councillors won't allow the city to expand and are happier to just kill it rather than cede the urban areas outlying it to become part of a greater Cork metro area.

I never thought that Cork people would kill Cork and turn it into a country town, but there you go! Rural vs Urban Ireland dividing lines and begridgery laid bare.

I can't see how this is in any way good for anyone other than power hungry administrators and a bunch of naive business lobbies who think it'll be somehow efficient!

You could get regional efficiencies by pooling large aspects of council back office services and sharing tenders to ensure maximum bang for buck.

It's a shame though. Ireland already has pathetically powerless local government and we have bad local services because they're not accountable.

In most countries the city would have quite extensive devolved powers encompassing things like education, local policing, running and planning the public transit system.

In Ireland : they don't even have the power to collect the bins anymore.

This is going to just make everything much less accountable, turn the council into a remote quango and undermine local democracy.

There are times when you'd really have do wonder about Ireland's governmental systems...

mire

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I think people in Birmingham might have something to say about your assertion of Manchester being the second city.

I suspect they would. However, Manchester is England's second city - in terms of its status in economic and political terms - it operates above its third place population rank and has been a heavy hitter for decades. It is one of those confident and ambitious cities that disregards its neighbours and in a way, even London.

Reputable Rog

StonyIron wrote: »

The problem with this is that Co Cork is a very large rural area half the size of Northern Ireland.

If you merge the city and county local government, you're going to actually most likely cause a focus on the city and its surrounds with the rural areas being an after thought.

It could also result in the opposite where the city just becomes a big county town and is let fall apart.

This removes accountability, makes local government more remote and is totally contrary to the ideas pushed by the Council of Europe and others who look for subsiduarity (decisions made as locally as possible where possible).

Ireland is ripping out bits of democracy in the name of efficiency.

We'll lose the cheap bit that gives us some degree of control : councillors and keep the expensive bit : bureaucracts and administrators.

You can be damn sure there'll be no administration changes, just fewer pesky councillors to get in the way of the executive.

This is probably about watering down the cities' increasingly left wing councils by diluting them with rural conservative votes.

Typical FG gerrymandering.

FF did similar by stretching Cork North Central into rural Cork to ensure the Northside left wing voting patterns were "balanced" as they were losing seats.

This merger is a bad decision and if it's allowed to happen we'll be regretting it in 20 years when Cork is a sprawling mess and we're finding all our rates being spent elsewhere.

If Cork people don't make this an election issue, they've only themselves to blame for the death of their city.

Email your local TDs

The parliament is actually largely rural and from what I can see Ireland has a weird hostility towards anything urban.

I cannot think of any country, anywhere in the world that would abolish cities local governments at the stroke of a pen like this. It's actually mind boggling strange stuff.

Also this is not like merging Dublin City with the county bits. Dublin is a very small county which is heavily urban.

It's more like replacing Dublin City and it's 3 County Councils and creating County Pale by merging them with a huge rural area.

I can't see that happening anytime soon. In fact there isn't even any sign of merging Dub L Rathdown & South County Dublin.

Welcome to one city Ireland!
(Galway you're next for the chop btw... Committee already being formed)

There really is no alternative. No point in bankrupting one authority to appear another.
If anything this will make the city stronger , it gives on unlimited scope for expansion whilst also allowing the benefits the urban area brings being continuously be shared across the entire Cork Region.
Considering the size of Cork as a whole the population is small relative to this.
Comparing Cork with Greater Manchester is utter nonsense. 5 times the size with 20% of the population .

namloc1980

How many people are actually up in arms over this? Very few I suspect. Only a dozen or so individuals bothered making a submission to the review committee earlier in the year. This simply won't be an election issue.

StonyIron

Reputable Rog wrote: »

There really is no alternative. No point in bankrupting one authority to appear another.
If anything this will make the city stronger , it gives on unlimited scope for expansion whilst also allowing the benefits the urban area brings being continuously be shared across the entire Cork Region.
Considering the size of Cork as a whole the population is small relative to this.
Comparing Cork with Greater Manchester is utter nonsense. 5 times the size with 20% of the population .

It's a recipe for diluting accountability and causing major urban sprawl.

That's generally how Irish people like things though so, I'm sure it'll be popular.

There are plenty of alternatives. Nobody is prepared to look at any of them though.

We are abysmally bad at local government here. For years we didn't even have local elections...

StonyIron

namloc1980 wrote: »

How many people are actually up in arms over this? Very few I suspect. Only a dozen or so individuals bothered making a submission to the review committee earlier in the year. This simply won't be an election issue.

I would also doubt that other than a few academics that anyone was even aware of a public consultation process. I wouldn't take lack of submissions as an indication of anything.

the dark phantom

What a bunch of dumb fúcks. You can be sure a large amount of the money the city creates wont be spent in the city once the rural Cork politicians get involved. The city will suffer for the county's gain. Sadly most people won't care.

Ludo

the dark phantom wrote: »

What a bunch of dumb fúcks. You can be sure a large amount of the money the city creates wont be spent in the city once the rural Cork politicians get involved. The city will suffer for the county's gain. Sadly most people won't care.

I'm guessing it will actually be the other way round. The city is tiny currently and a LOT of income comes to the county from large areas which the city wanted to take over which lead to the proposed merger as the county did not want to simply give up these cash generating areas.

sKeith

the dark phantom wrote: »

What a bunch of dumb fúcks. You can be sure a large amount of the money the city creates wont be spent in the city once the rural Cork politicians get involved. The city will suffer for the county's gain. Sadly most people won't care.

The subsidising you speak of here is the same as what Dublin has been doing for the rest of the country, especially sparse counties, for as long as I can remember.

pwurple

I dunno, it makes more sense to me for cohesive planning that some areas are considered together. Take Douglas and wilton/bishopstown. How does it make any sense that they are part of the county council area like Clonakilty, instead of with the city council?

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

the dark phantom

sKeith wrote: »

The subsidising you speak of here is the same as what Dublin has been doing for the rest of the country, especially sparse counties, for as long as I can remember.

Can't disagree with that, Dublin's shíte transport and planning would be in some way a result of that too.

the dark phantom

Ludo wrote: »

I'm guessing it will actually be the other way round. The city is tiny currently and a LOT of income comes to the county from large areas which the city wanted to take over which lead to the proposed merger as the county did not want to simply give up these cash generating areas.

Cool. In my own opinion I just think it could be hard for the council to put through progressive proposals for the city if a large amount of the rural councillors go against the same proposals.

Larbre34

This is just a report, made to keep the dust off the bare wood of shelves with all the other reports. The dissent to the recommendation for merging by the two political scientists within the Committee will be all the ammunition the Government needs to studiously ignore it.

A merger would be a bad idea. The needs and motivations of Cork City and Cork County are very different. Apart from that, the physical size of the area involved would stretch a unified Council administration and lessen focus on specific important developments in each Authority.

The answer is to expand the City boundary to its natural limits, include the full projected N40 route and absorb Glanmire up to Blarney and down to Carraigrohane and make the City the focus for major commercial and population expansion, as the location is a planners dream. I say that as Dub and God knows we need as much pressure taken off the Capital as possible.

Besides which, the Councillors of both Authorities and all parties will never allow the merger.

salmocab

there was chap on the radio talking about this the other day, not sure who he was but he was arguing against it saying that if anything the city council should have an expanded area to take in some large suburbs that aren't currently part of the city. He made a lot of sense, for me a city should be run as an entity not as part of a large county.

Reputable Rog

http://www.environ.ie/en/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,42666,en.pdf

Its definetly on, in order to contain the extent of the new area, lands around and including the towns Charleville is being transferred to Limerick. Kanturk, Bantry, Castletownbere and Newmarket to Kerry ,Youghal to Waterford and Mitchelstown to Tipperary.

Reputable Rog

Larbre34 wrote: »

This is just a report, made to keep the dust off the bare wood of shelves with all the other reports. The dissent to the recommendation for merging by the two political scientists within the Committee will be all the ammunition the Government needs to studiously ignore it.

A merger would be a bad idea. The needs and motivations of Cork City and Cork County are very different. Apart from that, the physical size of the area involved would stretch a unified Council administration and lessen focus on specific important developments in each Authority.

The answer is to expand the City boundary to its natural limits, include the full projected N40 route and absorb Glanmire up to Blarney and down to Carraigrohane and make the City the focus for major commercial and population expansion, as the location is a planners dream. I say that as Dub and God knows we need as much pressure taken off the Capital as possible.

Besides which, the Councillors of both Authorities and all parties will never allow the merger.

How do you propose they stop it? Its a ministerial directive. The Cllrs in the County are in favour of it.

kooga

really to the ordinary citizen will it make one differnce ....................answer is no. do i still have to get up for work in the morning answer is yes!

54and56

Which is it?

This

StonyIron wrote: »

The problem with this is that Co Cork is a very large rural area half the size of Northern Ireland.

If you merge the city and county local government, you're going to actually most likely cause a focus on the city and its surrounds with the rural areas being an after thought.

or this

StonyIron wrote: »

If Cork people don't make this an election issue, they've only themselves to blame for the death of their city.

How can the merger of councils resulting in the rural areas losing out to the city result in the death of the city?

54and56

StonyIron wrote: »

I would also doubt that other than a few academics that anyone was even aware of a public consultation process. I wouldn't take lack of submissions as an indication of anything.

If it's something people actually care about why didn't they engage with the process?

This is classic bar stool fodder for the drinking classes. It'll give some people something else to have a moan about whilst the rest of society get on actually doing things.

I wonder how many times "they" will be blamed and "someone's got to do something" will be said (but not by the person saying it obviously ) and I can only imagine the creative types who will somehow pin the blame on "Dublin" whatever that means. :rolleyes:

mire

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Which is it?

This

or this

How can the merger of councils resulting in the rural areas losing out to the city result in the death of the city?

It is simple. Cork is big in local government terms. It has a diverse territory and economy. It has a large metropolitan area and a large county area. The economic, governing and social needs in these places are very different. A merged authority will serve neither properly. I see nothing wrong with having two distinct and separate bodies doing distinct and separate things.

moyners

Report out and available here:

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Administration/FileDownLoad,42666,en.pdf

Edit: I thought they'd left out the minority report but the appendices are out of sequence

54and56

mire wrote: »

It is simple. Cork is big in local government terms. It has a diverse territory and economy. It has a large metropolitan area and a large county area. The economic, governing and social needs in these places are very different. A merged authority will serve neither properly.

So 520,000 people (between the city and county http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/population/populationofeachprovincecountyandcity2011/) require the duplication of two councils to run them? Are you actually serious?

Yes the city has different needs to the county but then even within the county you'll have an equally relevant argument that rural areas like Drinagh have significantly different needs than Bandon or Kinsale. It's not beyond the gift of intelligent human beings to be able to address the needs of a range of different communities within a single council.

In the UK combined City and County councils are called Unitary Councils or are called Metropolitan Boroughs but effectively operate as Unitary Councils (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_borough) and they have been operating successfully in many areas which couldn't justify the duplication of both a city and county council since 1992, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_authorities_of_England and here is a list of those with more than 500,000 in population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population#More_than_500.2C000_inhabitants.

We're only 23 years behind

mire wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with having two distinct and separate bodies doing distinct and separate things.

Apart from increased taxes to fund two sets of councils rather than one and parish pump decision making? You're right, apart from that I see nothing wrong with having two councils. Heck, why not follow the logic through and have an elected county council, an elected city council, a half dozen elected town councils for Clon, BBandon, Kinsale, Skib, Bantry etc and fifty or so elected village councils for Drinagh, Ballinadee, Ballinaspittle etc etc all with local tax raising powers, healthcare provision, education, social services etc. What could possibly go wrong?

moyners

Full report available here: http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Administration/FileDownLoad,42666,en.pdf

Might be an idea to merge this thread with the one that was going already...

Edit:I thought they'd left out the minority report but the appendices are out of sequence

namloc1980

moyners wrote: »

Full report available here: http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Administration/FileDownLoad,42666,en.pdf

Might be an idea to merge this thread with the one that was going already...

Edit: I notice they've left out the Minority Report listed in the contents

Minority report is there for me anyway.

leahyl

Threads have been merged into one

StonyIron

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Which is it?

This

or this

How can the merger of councils resulting in the rural areas losing out to the city result in the death of the city?

By causing a lack of focus on either so you end up with the worst of both worlds. A council that's neither focused on rural affairs nor focused on urban affairs properly.

StonyIron

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Apart from increased taxes to fund two sets of councils rather than one and parish pump decision making? You're right, apart from that I see nothing wrong with having two councils. Heck, why not follow the logic through and have an elected county council, an elected city council, a half dozen elected town councils for Clon, BBandon, Kinsale, Skib, Bantry etc and fifty or so elected village councils for Drinagh, Ballinadee, Ballinaspittle etc etc all with local tax raising powers, healthcare provision, education, social services etc. What could possibly go wrong?

If you continue down that kind of argument though you just abolish local government entirely and run the whole thing from the Department of the Environment.

Most countries would actually have town councils for all of those towns and probably even for some of Cork's suburbs. Ireland's setup's very unusually lacking in local control over things.

moyners

namloc1980 wrote: »

Minority report is there for me anyway.

Yes, sorry it's there but out of sequence

mire

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

So 520,000 people (between the city and county http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/population/populationofeachprovincecountyandcity2011/) require the duplication of two councils to run them? Are you actually serious?

Yes the city has different needs to the county but then even within the county you'll have an equally relevant argument that rural areas like Drinagh have significantly different needs than Bandon or Kinsale. It's not beyond the gift of intelligent human beings to be able to address the needs of a range of different communities within a single council.

In the UK combined City and County councils are called Unitary Councils or are called Metropolitan Boroughs but effectively operate as Unitary Councils (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_borough) and they have been operating successfully in many areas which couldn't justify the duplication of both a city and county council since 1992, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_authorities_of_England and here is a list of those with more than 500,000 in population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population#More_than_500.2C000_inhabitants.

We're only 23 years behind

Apart from increased taxes to fund two sets of councils rather than one and parish pump decision making? You're right, apart from that I see nothing wrong with having two councils. Heck, why not follow the logic through and have an elected county council, an elected city council, a half dozen elected town councils for Clon, BBandon, Kinsale, Skib, Bantry etc and fifty or so elected village councils for Drinagh, Ballinadee, Ballinaspittle etc etc all with local tax raising powers, healthcare provision, education, social services etc. What could possibly go wrong?

Your argument about 'duplication' is fantasy, and is the same as suggesting that we should merge all County Councils and have no local government. Are Cork and Kerry County Councils 'duplicating services'? If so, should we not merge them, get rid of local government altogether. I see nothing wrong with having local government at a much smaller scale than we do now.

You suggest we need to raise taxes to fund two councils! Why would we need to do that? There are two Councils already.