Cork City boundary extension

Corkblowin

Reputable Rog wrote: »

What makes them experts ? Only one of these 'experts' you refer to has ever worked in a Local Authority .

The last place one would look for people with radical thinking, original thoughts or will challenge the status quo is a Local Authority.

kub

Reputable Rog wrote: »

At the end of the day a person in Newmarket or Baltimore is just as much entitled to services as someone from Bishopstown or Ballinlough.

What is that saying again? Something along the lines of 'the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few'.

StonyIron

Reputable Rog wrote: »

What makes them experts ? Only one of these 'experts' you refer to has ever worked in a Local Authority .
The rest of them sit scratching their holes and pontificating.
If they weren't in UCC they would be working for the Irish Times or the blow hole cycle on Marian Finucane every Sunday.
There is little point in bankrupting one local authority to appease another, the merger may not be ideal but in the absence of more devoloution to the regions it may the only way to accommodate the needs of both authorities and Cork as a whole.
At the end of the day a person in Newmarket or Baltimore is just as much entitled to services as someone from Bishopstown or Ballinlough.

Nobody said someone in Newmarket or Baltimore isn't entitled to services. The issue is that you're trying to slam a large urban area into very large rural area. Neither of them will end up properly serviced as a result.

It's not about "us" vs "them" or "urban" vs "rural". It's about having a local government capable of actually functioning and delivering services. Neither authority's going bankrupt or has any likelihood of bankruptcy either.

Also, what is this anti-academic nonsense?

Should we just bulldoze the universities too while were at it because they dare to critique something a sacred government committee says?

Am I living in Ireland or China?!

KCAccidental

Reputable Rog wrote: »

What makes them experts ?

Probably the years dedicated to study and peer reviewed research into the subject.

Reputable Rog

Experts in churning out unemployed planners or planners for export.

mire

Reputable Rog wrote: »

What makes them experts ? Only one of these 'experts' you refer to has ever worked in a Local Authority .
The rest of them sit scratching their holes and pontificating.
If they weren't in UCC they would be working for the Irish Times or the blow hole cycle on Marian Finucane every Sunday.
There is little point in bankrupting one local authority to appease another, the merger may not be ideal but in the absence of more devoloution to the regions it may the only way to accommodate the needs of both authorities and Cork as a whole.
At the end of the day a person in Newmarket or Baltimore is just as much entitled to services as someone from Bishopstown or Ballinlough.

Make sure you don't allow any facts get in the way of your opinions. Firstly, three of the experts mentioned have worked extensively in local government. Secondly, that is not a pre-requisite for commenting on the issue. Thirdly, only one of the three people recommending a merger worked in local government; I assume you have an issue with that? Fourthly, there is never a question of 'bankrupting one local authority'.

Reputable Rog

mire wrote: »

Make sure you don't allow any facts get in the way of your opinions. Firstly, three of the experts mentioned have worked extensively in local government. Secondly, that is not a pre-requisite for commenting on the issue. Thirdly, only one of the three people recommending a merger worked in local government; I assume you have an issue with that? Fourthly, there is never a question of 'bankrupting one local authority'.

Mr Smiddy said that his group had struggled to get practical answers to the many questions it had raised regarding the other option of a boundary extension for Cork city, with many proponents of such a position relying on theoretical models.The review group thus began to look at international academic research including studies from Europe, Australia and New Zealand. Mr Smiddy cited the findings of Australian academic Chris Aulich, who looked at mergers in Australia and New Zealand.Mr Smiddy said Prof Aulich had found local authority mergers in both countries had led to single authorities capable of “delivering enhanced levels of services to citizens arising from the pooling of knowledge and expertise”.From Saturdays Irish Pontificator.

StonyIron

The Auckland merger is barely 5 years old and is *hugely* controversial in NZ, particularly in rural areas which now feel they've no representation in the new "super city".

It's also a little half the size of County Cork in terms of area that it takes in.

The structure there also includes approximately 28 Local Boards which are effectively elected district councils within the bigger council. Nothing equivalent is proposed here. In fact we've already abolished all the existing town councils in Cork anyway a couple of years ago, and they're not long enough gone to even establish what the impact of that might be.

The City of Wellington and surrounds outright rejected a similar move this year and it has been parked permanently.

The other aspect to remember is Ireland has a vastly different urbanisation pattern. We're one of the least urbanised developed nations. NZ and Australia are both highly urbanised in comparison.

The Cork merger risks putting a relatively small city into a huge rural council. That is nothing even remotely like what Auckland did.

Reputable Rog

The most likely scenario I'm hearing this morning is a do nothing scenario. The city boundary extension is dead in the water and so its business as normal unless Kelly decides to create his political legacy before he is voted out by the good voters of Tipperary.

StonyIron

I'd rather do nothing than make a total mess that might cause damage for decades.

If anything this shows the issue needs a lot more debate and more open public consultation before it goes ahead.

I actually think we could probably do with looking at how the county is run generally.

For example, having something like West Cork, East Cork and Metro Cork with their own councils and a small regional authority over the top running things that work best shared and providing facilities for inter communal cooperative schemes and aspects of budget sharing might make a lot more sense. You don't need do strip out local democracy to do that and many things need to be done at local, not regional, level.

It's about ensuring the right things are moved up to regional authorities and that people retain local control and democratic accountability.

We need to really think about how to create a structure that works for Ireland, not adopt a badly implemented version (missing elements) from somewhere structured very differently to Ireland.

I don't think it can be done in the County Council model though. You're really looking at the need for a totally new form of regional authority, reassignment of responsibilities and total reform of the way the councils operate.

It's a problem that needs a much better solution than a simple slamming together of two very incompatible entities.

We are trying to do too much with the wrong tools.

The problems here are mostly about how public accounting and budgeting works, accountability, transparency, inappropriate structures for populations, lack of regional coordination (across county lines) etc etc

This government can have a legacy as a true reformer of local government if it does it right.

As it stands Enda could end up with the legacy of being the Taoiseach who abolished Waterford, Limerick and Cork and who attempted to abolish the Seanad.

Reform of systems means redesigning them, not just throwing them in a skip.

Reputable Rog

And where does North Cork fit in to your masterplan ?

StonyIron

Reputable Rog wrote: »

And where does North Cork fit in to your masterplan ?

I don't know because it's not a master plan, this is an Internet discussion forum and I'm not a dictator.

I was floating a general idea and suggested that it should be opened to a real teasing out.

My use of the words "For example, having something like..." were the hint.

killydocs

Lots of issues with this proposal. One major issue as i see it is the decision to go with three regions.
Why not one region for the greater Cork Harbour region, which I've been told has c. 250,000 people, and a second Cork Rural region?
Why create an imbalance where there are two rural regions able to outvote the urban area?

Why not just extend Cork City by bringing Douglas, Frankfield, Rochestown and other Cork County towns contiguous with the urban area?
This would give the City a population of 200,000 people without eating into the huge revenues generated by Cork harbour and the airport.

StonyIron

Possibly because it's about doing exactly that?

Ever consider the possibility that it's because cities are more antiestablishment.

One could see this as simple gerrymandering by diluting a very slightly more radical urban vote with a conservative rural one.

None of this massive and radical restructure has been given enough consideration.

I think they've already done damage to Limerick and Waterford - even worse in some ways as those cities actually staddle county borders and really needed boundary extensions into Kilkenny and Clare.

The whole thing is hamfisted and I can't understand why it's being rammed through without proper thought for the implications.

The urgent areas that need addressing are Leitrim and Roscommon as their councils have genuinely got serious viability issues.

I'd like to see regional interlinking of some of those very small population councils.

Also there's absolutely scope for a Dublin metro
Area.

The issue I have with the current approach is that you're attempting to use a rural County Council model to be a regional body including a city and creating a very ungovernable mess with conflicting interests.

That isn't appropriate.

kooga

as a city resident, and we are in decline, it won't make much difference as to which local authority i deal with.

In fact my public interaction is declining, my bin service has been privatised, my estate has not been taken in charge and my water...........well given that my estate is not taken in charge they cannot fit a meter. The cycle goes on and on. To conclude it won't make much of a difference.

the only downside i can possible think off is that more country folk will feel entitled to block my driveway when they go to pairc in rinn to watch liam kent CLG v Gaa rovers !

Reputable Rog

killydocs wrote: »

Lots of issues with this proposal. One major issue as i see it is the decision to go with three regions.
Why not one region for the greater Cork Harbour region, which I've been told has c. 250,000 people, and a second Cork Rural region?
Why create an imbalance where there are two rural regions able to outvote the urban area?

Why not just extend Cork City by bringing Douglas, Frankfield, Rochestown and other Cork County towns contiguous with the urban area?
This would give the City a population of 200,000 people without eating into the huge revenues generated by Cork harbour and the airport.

The County Council actually offered something similar to your idea, but the city wanted more.

leahyl

Guys, please keep the discussion in here civil, no personal insults about other posters or third parties

StonyIron

kooga wrote: »

as a city resident, and we are in decline, it won't make much difference as to which local authority i deal with.

In fact my public interaction is declining, my bin service has been privatised, my estate has not been taken in charge and my water...........well given that my estate is not taken in charge they cannot fit a meter. The cycle goes on and on. To conclude it won't make much of a difference.

the only downside i can possible think off is that more country folk will feel entitled to block my driveway when they go to pairc in rinn to watch liam kent CLG v Gaa rovers !

That's also a major issue with the Irish local government in general - they have had all of their traditional roles removed.

The City Council is doing a pretty solid job on the City Centre at the moment. Genuinely, it's in the best condition I've ever seen it in at the moment. I was actually quite impressed. It's looking a hell of a lot better than most of Galway and Dublin City Centres at the moment and it's mostly down to proper choice of paving, improved maintenance over the last few years and density of shops.

The County Council's also engaging in a lot more economic development issues than most other areas of Ireland are - and I think it's a welcome development. They've made some excellent initiatives, especially in areas like really strong and practical supports in areas like agri-business, food and so on and I think those kinds of initiatives could be something done on a more regional basis for the whole city and county.

There also is already quite a lot of cooperation between the two local authorities in a number of areas and I think that's something you could actually formalise under a proper regional authority without actually having one of the councils subsumed into the other.

You have to see cities as a bit like a shared public space. You wouldn't manage UCC's campus or Mahon Point shopping from a remote office that also runs a big rural area. They need very specific, on-the-ground, focused, accountable management. They also have very specific issues around social housing provision on a much bigger scale than rural areas and also very specific social problem issues that are just the nature of big urban areas. Those things risk being lost in a huge council.

Also, when you look at rural areas there are a whole range of very specific issues impacting remote communities that wouldn't register in the city at all and they risk being lost in a one-size-fits all mediocrity too.

I think towns need that level of management too and it has to be locally based.

What I would like to see is a smaller, neater regional authority over the whole top of the county and city. A strong city and harbour council and whatever logical units County Cork breaks into being used for the rural areas.

I'd really like to see a layer of local government for towns though too. Not a replacement of the old model using Town Councils, but something modern, low-cost and very community focused - almost just a formalised version of the Tidy Towns Committee with a mayor really. Just something to give them focus and a forum. I really think it should be applied to any town over about 3000 people, with maybe some scope for creating voluntary community councils (by election) in other towns / villages. They don't need huge legal power, but they should be able to make representations to the council, organise events, have a role in tourism development etc.

In Cork you'd be looking at something like Ballincollig, Carrigaline, Cobh, Midleton, Mallow, Youghal, Bandon, Fermoy, Mallow, Youghal, Bandon, Kinsale, Clonakilty and possibly one or two others.

With maybe volunteer town councils in smaller towns like Skibbereen, Castletownbear and so on.

I think for societies to function, you do need structures for civic activities and that's where town and village councils come in and how they work in most of Europe.

There are *much* better ways of structuring things. We need to think beyond City and County Councils as being the only model. The important things are accountability and provision of services, not creating huge entities that are making power more remote. That's exactly what Local Government shouldn't be.

I don't know why Ireland's so anti-local government. If it's done well, it's a really good way of delivering quality services.

One of the issues I think we should also be looking at is possibly giving local authorities some kind of role in policing, especially in cities. Most of the rest of Europe has local police who deal with minor law and order issues and have similar levels of power to the Garda Reservists.

It wouldn't be that hard to imagine a situation where Cork City might have a handful of street-based police officers with very limited powers who could just maintain a presence, not pull resources from the Gardai and basically just report / deal with minor social order issues, littering, parking and so on. That's how it works in most other countries and it usually works very well. That kind of local policing would be responsible to the council, not directly to the central government, so it would be able to focus on local issues without needing to consult with the commissioner in the Phoenix Park all the time. You're really just talking about the same kind of services that you'd get in any shopping centre with security guards.

I honestly just think soooo much more could be done here in this area, without massive cost implications and actually maybe even generating savings in some area if it reduced petty crime, made service provision more efficient and effective and linked up things like regional tenders and back office operations.

What's crazy about the current proposal is it just slams two possibly unreformed and inefficient bodies together and removes their identity, accountability and ability to function cohesively.

I would be in favour of total root and branch reform and radical restructuring of Irish local government, not just snipping chunks out of it.

flo8s967qjh0nd

Reputable Rog wrote: »

What makes them experts ? Only one of these 'experts' you refer to has ever worked in a Local Authority .
The rest of them sit scratching their holes and pontificating.

If that's the level of debate the pro-merger side can come up with then they've lost already. The years of study and research on this exact topic would probably make them experts.

kooga

Kendall Screeching Appetizer wrote: »

If that's the level of debate the pro-merger side can come up with then they've lost already. The years of study and research on this exact topic would probably make them experts.

would you be able to cite any peer review paper they have produced? or where i m ight find their research in an academic journal please

Do they have phds? to demonstrate their academic prowness or does the fact that their email address is [EMAIL="....@ucc.ie"]....@ucc.ie[/EMAIL] make them experts. I don't think so!

flo8s967qjh0nd

kooga wrote: »

would you be able to cite any peer review paper they have produced? or where i m ight find their research in an academic journal please

Do they have phds? to demonstrate their academic prowness or does the fact that their email address is [EMAIL="....@ucc.ie"]....@ucc.ie[/EMAIL] make them experts. I don't think so!

http://publish.ucc.ie/researchprofiles/B007/aquinlivan

http://publish.ucc.ie/researchprofiles/B007/treidy

http://research.ucc.ie/profiles/A019/dkeogh

kooga

excellent looking forward to reading about why there should not be a merger.

KCAccidental

kooga wrote: »

would you be able to cite any peer review paper they have produced? or where i m ight find their research in an academic journal please

Do they have phds? to demonstrate their academic prowness or does the fact that their email address is [EMAIL="....@ucc.ie"]....@ucc.ie[/EMAIL] make them experts. I don't think so!

Theresa Reidy has a Doctorate in Government & Politics

Dermot Keogh is Professor of History and Emeritus Jean Monnet Professor of European Integration Studies.

Aodh Quinlivan, the man who was kept off the advisory committee has a doctorate in Government, worked in Cork County Council for 7 years and his list of published pieces on local government is unmatched in Ireland.

http://publish.ucc.ie/researchprofiles/B007/aquinlivan

StonyIron

I don't know why people are rushing to attempt to discredit the academics!

It's really bizarre!

People are open to hearing contrary arguments! That's what debate is all about and robust debate is pretty normal in academic circles too.

If the pro-merger side want to layout some points, off you go: It's a totally open forum and you're every bit as free to write to the papers as anyone else is!

Reputable Rog

KCAccidental wrote: »

Theresa Reidy has a Doctorate in Government & Politics

Dermot Keogh is Professor of History and Emeritus Jean Monnet Professor of European Integration Studies.

Aodh Quinlivan, the man who was kept off the advisory committee has a doctorate in Government, worked in Cork County Council for 7 years and his list of published pieces on local government is unmatched in Ireland.

http://publish.ucc.ie/researchprofiles/B007/aquinlivan

I have read every Ford Owners Manual ever published, still doesn't make me an expert on Ford.
Publish all the papers they want.

leahyl

Ok, now that we've listed out the different qualifications of the various people involved in this issue, can we please go back to discussing the actual issue. No more discussing how much of an expert so and so is or isn't. Thanks

KCAccidental

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I have read every Ford Owners Manual ever published, still doesn't make me an expert on Ford.
Publish all the papers they want.

There's this thing called Peer-review in academia. It's a bit more vigourous than just reading a manual.

KCAccidental, enough, leave it be now please.

StonyIron

It would be nice to see a Government take reform seriously though for once though rather than just attempting stunts like this.

There's huge scope to make a lot of very positive changes, but nothing ever happens.

It's the same in the Oireachtas - there's urgent need to reform how the Seanad functions and also how the Dail functions as there's way too much executive power and insufficient debates due to the standing orders as they stand.

Sadly inertia and attempting to reinvent the wheel, instead of looking at best practice elsewhere and adapting it to Ireland, tends to be the norm.

I mean, take a look at the Eircode map for an example of an Irish administration solution to a problem: https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/640145445411549184/photo/1

Note the new region of Galway-Monaghan/Cavan (H) and the North-South Leinstie-Ulsterie thing (A) and a bit of (W) somehow also exists in (R)

This kind of thing is why I really worry about Ireland's government's ability to organise a drinking party in a brewery sometimes!

hufpc8w3adnk65

Lots of rubbish been posted in here thread locked whilst we get too the bottom of it