CE Stamping of Structural Steel

Drift

Gryire wrote: »

There are about 30+ fabricators already CE marking their steel.

Is there a list available anywhere?

I'm talking about a specific list of Irish fabricators who can supply CE marking with their fabrications (and additionally execution class restrictions on those suppliers if necessary.)

Gryire

Drift wrote: »

Is there a list available anywhere?

I'm talking about a specific list of Irish fabricators who can supply CE marking with their fabrications (and additionally execution class restrictions on those suppliers if necessary.)

There is no list as each notified body mantain their own list.

Most of the Irish Fabricatiors who are certified are either with SCCS or NSAI.

www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Company-Registration-Search.aspx

www.steelconstruction.org/directories/steel-construction-certification-scheme-sccs.html

Gryire

Drift wrote: »

It has definitely increased the steel costs on some of our projects of late 2014 / early 2015 but from what I'm seeing (albeit totally anecdotally) it seems a trickle down is beginning to occur. Medium sized fabricators appear to have or be in the process of obtaining the certification and small suppliers have at least heard of it now!!!

We'll get there eventually - but it's the typical Irish system of things happening in the years AFTER supposed mandatory implementation and it's left to the poor conscientious specifier to police the whole thing whilst being bitched at by the client for the project costs going up and the fabricator for what they see as "paperwork" getting in the way of their real job.

It was 'always' the job of the specifier to police compliance with the specification. No police = No compliance!

Drift

Gryire wrote: »

It was 'always' the job of the specifier to police compliance with the specification. No police = No compliance!

I couldn't disagree more. If a supplier is producing something for sale or supply in the Irish market the onus is on him to make sure it complies with the laws of the land. NOT the end user or the specifier. If you were buying or ordering a new car tomorrow would you expect to have to take apart the steering wheel to make sure the airbags are assembled correctly? Or would you hope/expect the car manufacturer to comply with their legal obligations?

No Police = No Compliance is a tremenduous problem with our culture. The idea that if there's no-one there to check that I'm doing the safe/correct thing then I won't bother. I'll just do it the quick, wrong way to save myself the hassle. If I took that approach at my job I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror!

I have no problem specifying the use of CE Marked Steel on my specifications but even if I didn't a fabricator should not legally supply me with steelwork that is not CE marked because that would be illegal.

Gryire

Drift wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. If a supplier is producing something for sale or supply in the Irish market the onus is on him to make sure it complies with the laws of the land. NOT the end user or the specifier. If you were buying or ordering a new car tomorrow would you expect to have to take apart the steering wheel to make sure the airbags are assembled correctly? Or would you hope/expect the car manufacturer to comply with their legal obligations?

No Police = No Compliance is a tremenduous problem with our culture. The idea that if there's no-one there to check that I'm doing the safe/correct thing then I won't bother. I'll just do it the quick, wrong way to save myself the hassle. If I took that approach at my job I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror!

I have no problem specifying the use of CE Marked Steel on my specifications but even if I didn't a fabricator should not legally supply me with steelwork that is not CE marked because that would be illegal.

If you are buying a new car you are the client. The car designer is responsible for ensuring that the car is manufactured in accordance with the designers specification.

There is a lot more to a specification than just asking for CE marked steel. If that is all that is in your specification than it not worth the paper it is written on, and a lot of specifications are in this category.

Drift

I don't design the smelting process, or the rolling/extruding process for the steel either. And yet when I specify a 203 x 203 UC46 in S275 I expect to get it! ... Along with appropriate documentation to prove its provenance! Anyway - you can rest assured that my specification is worth a lot more than the paper it's written on.

I don't like the idea of fabricators trying to abdicate themselves from their responsibilities. Like it or not the law says you can't sell non CE marked steel for specific uses and no amount of blaming the specification will get you out of it!

Gryire

Drift wrote: »

I don't design the smelting process, or the rolling/extruding process for the steel either. And yet when I specify a 203 x 203 UC46 in S275 I expect to get it! ... Along with appropriate documentation to prove its provenance! Anyway - you can rest assured that my specification is worth a lot more than the paper it's written on.

I don't like the idea of fabricators trying to abdicate themselves from their responsibilities. Like it or not the law says you can't sell non CE marked steel for specific uses and no amount of blaming the specification will get you out of it!

What steel subgrade do you require.
What size weld do you need.
What level of inspection do you require.
How do you want weld procedures to be qualified.
What type of quality plan do you require.
Etc.

Drift

Why would you think I wouldn't specify this and more?!

And on top of all of that I still require CE Certification! And it's still not my job to police compliance with the hENs!

Gryire

Drift wrote: »

Why would you think I wouldn't specify this and more?!

And on top of all of that I still require CE Certification! And it's still not my job to police compliance with the hENs!

I read specifications on a daily basis and the vast majority do not include this info.
No one said it is your job to police compliance with the hENs.
I said it is your job to ensure compliance with your specification. This does happen but only with certain engineering consultants.

Drift

Apologies - I took this to mean that you (as a fabricator I'm assuming) thought that it was my job as a designer/specifier to go around the country telling fabricators all about the hENs when they should know as much if not more about them than me.

Gryire wrote: »

It was 'always' the job of the specifier to police compliance with the specification.

I spend a disproportionate amount of time checking for compliance with my specifications. The smaller the project the harder it gets. I find on the big projects, big contractors and big fabricators are used and most of them are reasonably well up to speed.

On smaller projects (where understandably it is difficult to afford big fabricator and contractor rates) it can be excruciatingly difficult getting the simplest information across or back. It's incredibly frustrating when sometimes the letters C and E are news to the fabricator and contractor.

I realise that checking compliance with my specification includes checking that legal requirements are met but this should be a small simple part of the process because I hope that anyone working in the field is competent enough to obey the law. Then I should be able to quickly move on to the nitty gritty of my exact requirements and explain where necessary why I need certain things. With competent suppliers this process is a dialogue - with less competent ones it's policing!

Gryire

Drift wrote: »

Apologies - I took this to mean that you (as a fabricator I'm assuming) thought that it was my job as a designer/specifier to go around the country telling fabricators all about the hENs when they should know as much if not more about them than me.




I spend a disproportionate amount of time checking for compliance with my specifications. The smaller the project the harder it gets. I find on the big projects, big contractors and big fabricators are used and most of them are reasonably well up to speed.

On smaller projects (where understandably it is difficult to afford big fabricator and contractor rates) it can be excruciatingly difficult getting the simplest information across or back. It's incredibly frustrating when sometimes the letters C and E are news to the fabricator and contractor.

I realise that checking compliance with my specification includes checking that legal requirements are met but this should be a small simple part of the process because I hope that anyone working in the field is competent enough to obey the law. Then I should be able to quickly move on to the nitty gritty of my exact requirements and explain where necessary why I need certain things. With competent suppliers this process is a dialogue - with less competent ones it's policing!

The reason a lot of fabricators are not CE compliant is because a lot of engineers / builders / architects don't demand it. I wish they would demand it.

Also, the competent ones still have to compete in price with non-complant ones!

Drift

Gryire wrote: »

Also, the competent ones still have to compete in price with non-complant ones!

And the competent Engineers have to try to explain to their clients why their steelwork is more expensive that Johnny down the road who threw in a few bicycle frames and isn't the conservatory standing just grand!

martinn123

Drift wrote: »

And the competent Engineers have to try to explain to their clients why their steelwork is more expensive that Johnny down the road who threw in a few bicycle frames and isn't the conservatory standing just grand!

Who the heck, is building Conservatories with bicycle frames, ( please name and shame ), or at least send me a PM, of all the simplistic, over the top, inflammatory and misleading throw away comments on this Forum over the past years, this takes the biscuit.

Drift

NO-ONE is building conservatories with bicycle frames!!!!!!

I was exaggerating hugely in an attempt to give the reader a chuckle. Clearly I missed the mark.

I was undecided between bicycle frames and shopping trollies - would shopping trollies have been funnier?

lownhard

Drift wrote: »

NO-ONE is building conservatories with bicycle frames!!!!!!

I was exaggerating hugely in an attempt to give the reader a chuckle. Clearly I missed the mark.

I chuckled..

Gryire

Drift wrote: »

And the competent Engineers have to try to explain to their clients why their steelwork is more expensive that Johnny down the road who threw in a few bicycle frames and isn't the conservatory standing just grand!

Just tell him that the conservatory is not insurable and if it falls on the bikes then they won't be insured either and if building control call they may ask for the structure to be taken down.:eek:

sky6

I laughed also and got the point.

I worked on some of the biggest projects in the 60 and 70 in Ireland. Back then the Steel supplier guaranteed the Steel Quality While the Welders had to be certified to work on certain projects mainly by the insistence of the Insurance Companies. Also in some cases section of Welds were removed for Test and Inspection, To see that they met the standards. I've even carried out many such Tests both at the request of the company and also the Insurance Company.
I'm curious to know who called for these new standards. Are they aimed at the quality of Steel supplied or the quality of the Fabricated Manufacture. Including the standard and quality of the Welders carrying out such work.

From what I've read it seems like the proverbial sledgehammer to crack a nut. While I see it as positive step in large Fabricated structures. I fail to see any benefit in small projects, something like the use of an RSJ to hold up a few blocks over and ope. A Steel Door Frame Or a set of Farm Gates.
It just seems like overkill. Like some of the new Building Regs when there's no evidence to support that fabricated buildings or Houses have been consistently fallen down. Thankfully in my experience most Irish personnel have generally taken much more pride in their work.

gctest50

martinn123 wrote: »

Who the heck, is building Conservatories with bicycle frames, ( please name and shame ), or at least send me a PM, of all the simplistic, over the top, inflammatory and misleading throw away comments on this Forum over the past years, this takes the biscuit.

what's wrong with bicycle frames then ?

you could create an amazing conservatory roof thingy out of them

not cheap either some of them :

https://www.racycles.com/road/colnago/colnago-c59-mapei-frameset-1556

martinn123

Ah Lads, whats this National Anti-Conservatory day.

Just to be clear, all Conservatory Roofs are made from Aluminium, and
re-inforcing of windows is usually from the same material

As this thread is discussing Structural Steel, I don't think either Building Control, or anyone else will be too interested on your comments on Conservatories, bikes etc.

Now can I get back to trying to make a living in Conservatories without further adverse opinion, it's hard enough out there.;)

Gryire

martinn123 wrote: »

Ah Lads, whats this National Anti-Conservatory day.

Just to be clear, all Conservatory Roofs are made from Aluminium, and
re-inforcing of windows is usually from the same material

As this thread is discussing Structural Steel, I don't think either Building Control, or anyone else will be too interested on your comments on Conservatories, bikes etc.

Now can I get back to trying to make a living in Conservatories without further adverse opinion, it's hard enough out there.;)

I am afraid aluminum structures are included in the CE marking requirements. EN 1090-3 is dedicated to aluminium structures.

martinn123

Gryire wrote: »

I am afraid aluminum structures are included in the CE marking requirements. EN 1090-3 is dedicated to aluminium structures.

Why be afraid, Conservatories up to 25 SQM are exempt from Building Regulations,

Quazzie

martinn123 wrote: »

Why be afraid, Conservatories up to 25 SQM are exempt from Building Regulations,

Not exempt from Building regs, just from Planning permission application.


Also if they aren't constructed properly they will be deemed uninsurable.

sydthebeat

Not exempt from construction production regulations, which requires CE marking.

Regardless of exemption from building regulations.

Gryire

martinn123 wrote: »

Why be afraid, Conservatories up to 25 SQM are exempt from Building Regulations,

Construction Products Regulations are law. Nothing to do with building regs!

martinn123

Quazzie wrote: »

Not exempt from Building regs, just from Planning permission application.


Also if they aren't constructed properly they will be deemed uninsurable.

Point 1. Incorrect
Point 2 . Example please.

Drift

The construction products regulations are the law and apply to all harmonised construction products regardless of the size of the building in which they are used. (This means CE marking.)

BryanF

Drift wrote: »

The construction products regulations are the law and apply to all harmonised construction products regardless of the size of the building in which they are used. (This means CE marking.)

Should each piece of conservatory aluminium have a CE marking?

Gryire

BryanF wrote: »

Should each piece of conservatory aluminium have a CE marking?

Only if it is structural.

Drift

Depends on what you define by structural:

1. Windows require certification.
2. DPMs require it.

Also things like:

• Fire Alarms
• Radiators
• Pipes
• Paving Slabs
• Slates
• Insulation
• etc/

Drift

Apologies .. I just realised BryanF asked specifically about the aluminium in a conservatory!!!!!

Gryire

Drift wrote: »

Depends on what you define by structural:

1. Windows require certification.
2. DPMs require it.

Also things like:

• Fire Alarms
• Radiators
• Pipes
• Paving Slabs
• Slates
• Insulation
• etc/

The forum was really about the construction products regulations.

Drift

All of those items are covered by the Construction Products Regulations and they all require CE marking.

It's not just steel and concrete!

Gryire

Drift wrote: »

All of those items are covered by the Construction Products Regulations and they all require CE marking.

It's not just steel and concrete!

Fire Alarms
Radiators

Drift

Gryire wrote: »

Fire Alarms
Radiators

Yup!

Along with Sauna Stoves and Washbasins!!


http://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/european-standards/harmonised-standards/construction-products/index_en.htm

Gryire

There seems to be a lot more demand for CE marked steel lately. Think this was due to seminar held be egineers ireland a couple of weeks ago.

owenky1

Will plates be used for the likes of agricultural steel buildings to show compliance with
I.S. EN1090-1 ?

-snip-