Arsenal Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Notes in OP 24/08

Marty McFly

gosplan wrote: »

Perhaps but if we find ourselves out of the CL places which has happened to Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool, we'll have very little to offer.

The move by so many rising stats to France and people like Falcao and Di Maria going to Utd shows that there's one thing that really motivates top players.

But look this year we bought Ozil Sanchez and Chambers. 3 more like that next summer in the Striker, DMF and CB positions and we'll look really strong.

See that's my biggest gripe whilst yes I've been delighted with signings of Sanchez and Ozil we've all been saying for a few years what we needed most was a DM and CF and they've been the two areas we have ignored that is very worrying.

Sure even the signing of Welbeck wouldn't have happened unless Giroud had gotten injured meaning Wenger would have happily left us with Sanogo as our back up. Scary thought.

gosplan

Marty McFly wrote: »

See that's my biggest gripe whilst yes I've been delighted with signings of Sanchez and Ozil we've all been saying for a few years what we needed most was a DM and CF and they've been the two areas we have ignored that is very worrying.

Sure even the signing of Welbeck wouldn't have happened unless Giroud had gotten injured meaning Wenger would have happily left us with Sanogo as our back up. Scary thought.

Think we argued about those priorities all summer.

Without doubt a backup CB and a new RB were first two on the list.

Marty McFly

gosplan wrote: »

Think we argued about those priorities all summer.

Without doubt a backup CB and a new RB were first two on the list.

They were but Debuchy and Chambers we're wrapped up early and a CB was only touted if Verm was leaving by some.

But regardless everyone has known for years we've been weak in DM and CF and each year they've been passed over which is what I was getting at.

gosplan

Marty McFly wrote: »

They were but Debuchy and Chambers we're wrapped up early and a CB was only touted if Verm was leaving by some.

But regardless everyone has known for years we've been weak in DM and CF and each year they've been passed over which is what I was getting at.

Yup, and you're fully correct. The base of that midfield has been ignored for years.

Maybe this year you could say 'fine Wenger wanted other players' but the last player we were really happy about there was Flamini in his wonder season years ago.

That's very neglectful.

Colonialboy

Thought it was interesting last night to see Bayern (Pissaro) and Chelsea (Drogba) playing strikers who are in their mid 30's. similar to Utd (Owen)
They may only play a bit-part and we may argue about how good they are, but given the managers of these clubs (Pep,Fergie,Jose) are very successfull they must offer something. Coverage, experience, set an example to trainees, good to have in the club and training ground.

Reminds me of how Wenger always shifted on the attacking players as they aged and would never give long contracts.

Look at Dortmund who have played us off the park for a few seasons and are constantly losing their best players but still manage to perform at the top. Klopp has done outstanding with them.

I think the Wenger experiment/philosophy has failed and he wont admit it or change.
He hasnt managed to get us to be as good as the top teams in the PL or Europe.
He has manged to get us to be better than Everton,Spurs,Villa, Pool, Southampton,Swansea etc consistently.

Kirby

Drogba didn't play very well though, and missed some easy chances. He's definitely past his best. I wouldn't be using that as an example of good policy. If Remy or Costa had been on the end of the chances, Chelsea wouldn't have ended up with a 1-1 draw.

greendom

Colonialboy wrote: »

Thought it was interesting last night to see Bayern (Pissaro) and Chelsea (Drogba) playing strikers who are in their mid 30's. similar to Utd (Owen)
They may only play a bit-part and we may argue about how good they are, but given the managers of these clubs (Pep,Fergie,Jose) are very successfull they must offer something. Coverage, experience, set an example to trainees, good to have in the club and training ground.

Reminds me of how Wenger always shifted on the attacking players as they aged and would never give long contracts.

Look at Dortmund who have played us off the park for a few seasons and are constantly losing their best players but still manage to perform at the top. Klopp has done outstanding with them.

I think the Wenger experiment/philosophy has failed and he wont admit it or change.
He hasnt managed to get us to be as good as the top teams in the PL or Europe.
He has manged to get us to be better than Everton,Spurs,Villa, Pool, Southampton,Swansea etc consistently.

And I think that was more than satisfactory during the Emirates financing issue - now that is almost done and time to move up to the next level and at the moment it's looking like a struggle.

.jacksparrow.

We shouldn't be happy with the status quo because we may or may not drop out of the top 4.

How many more seasons is that acceptable?

I would love to give another manager a chance but I'm fully aware it's very risky.

It would want to be someone like klopp, new fresh ideas.

But I wouldn't be replacing Wenger too hasty, but at the same time shouldn't be afraid of change.

tayto lover

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

We shouldn't be happy with the status quo because we may or may not drop out of the top 4.

How many more seasons is that acceptable?

I would love to give another manager a chance but I'm fully aware it's very risky.

It would want to be someone like klopp, new fresh ideas.

But I wouldn't be replacing Wenger too hasty, but at the same time shouldn't be afraid of change.

I remember people saying "there'll never be another Bertie Mee".

Skylinehead

Colonialboy wrote: »

Thought it was interesting last night to see Bayern (Pissaro) and Chelsea (Drogba) playing strikers who are in their mid 30's. similar to Utd (Owen)
They may only play a bit-part and we may argue about how good they are, but given the managers of these clubs (Pep,Fergie,Jose) are very successfull they must offer something. Coverage, experience, set an example to trainees, good to have in the club and training ground.

Drogba was worse than useless yesterday, and Jose took far too long in taking him off. Bit of a tactical blunder actually....

Reminds me of how Wenger always shifted on the attacking players as they aged and would never give long contracts.

Bergkamp says hi.

Look at Dortmund who have played us off the park for a few seasons and are constantly losing their best players but still manage to perform at the top. Klopp has done outstanding with them.

Constantly? They've lost Kagawa, Gotze and Lewandowski over the last 3 years. While keeping great players like Gundogan, Subotic, Hummels, and adding to them with the likes of Immobile, Marco Reus, and they've even managed to get Kagawa back. The Dortmund as a selling club thing is incredibly untrue.

2ndcoming

Team for me on Sat would be:

Shez

Chambers Mert Kos Gibbs

Arteta Wilshere

Ox Ozil Sanchez

Welbeck

This would be based on employing Wilshere in something more like his England position rather than just giving him free reign to bomb forward. Regardless of what Wenger thinks long term, he can do that job better than Ozil, who can do the 10 job better than him. Needs must, it's a no-brainer. If we haven't scored by 60 I'd hook Welbeck/Ox for Poldi and push Sanchez up front/to the right, if we're two up and cruising at 60 I'd hook Ozil for Flamini and let Wilshere sit ahead of the other two.

I don't think Bellerin is quite ready and his confidence will prob be a bit rattled from the other night.

greendom

Skylinehead wrote: »

Drogba was worse than useless yesterday, and Jose took far too long in taking him off. Bit of a tactical blunder actually....


Bergkamp says hi.


Constantly? They've lost Kagawa, Gotze and Lewandowski over the last 3 years. While keeping great players like Gundogan, Subotic, Hummels, and adding to them with the likes of Immobile, Marco Reus, and they've even managed to get Kagawa back. The Dortmund as a selling club thing is incredibly untrue.

Yes I think someone else mentioned that there was some severe under-estimating of Dortmund's abilities prior to the game on Tuesday. We'd won there last season and every one was expecting an even easier game this time roudn. This doesn't stop the fact that we were awful on the night but Dortmund are a top top side.

GavRedKing

Skylinehead wrote: »

Drogba was worse than useless yesterday, and Jose took far too long in taking him off. Bit of a tactical blunder actually....

Yup, fact is Remy should have started and the outcome would have been a lot different.

Makes me very fearful if we lose Costa to a long term injury and we've to really protect Remy as Drogba is just so far short of fitness its not even funny, combine that with 36 year old legs, its not a pretty sight.

Ye can rest easy, his days of scoring agaisnt Arsenal are long gone by the looks of it.

greendom

greendom wrote: »

Yes I think someone else mentioned that there was some severe under-estimating of Dortmund's abilities prior to the game on Tuesday. We'd won there last season and every one was expecting an even easier game this time roudn. This doesn't stop the fact that we were awful on the night but Dortmund are a top top side.

I'm sick of getting embarrassed by top sides.

gosplan

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sick of getting embarrassed by top sides.

Me too and it's not even the fact that we lose. It's looking so pathetic and letting people like Skertl score twice in the first few minutes.

Colonialboy

Skylinehead wrote: »

Drogba was worse than useless yesterday, and Jose took far too long in taking him off. Bit of a tactical blunder actually....

Bergkamp says hi.

Constantly? They've lost Kagawa, Gotze and Lewandowski over the last 3 years. While keeping great players like Gundogan, Subotic, Hummels, and adding to them with the likes of Immobile, Marco Reus, and they've even managed to get Kagawa back. The Dortmund as a selling club thing is incredibly untrue.

Like I said in my post 'we may argue about how good they are' , my point is if the most successful managers in recent history, (Fergie,Pep,Jose) are willing to give older plays a bit role in the club/squad why isnt Wenger.

Bergkamp says hi ... Pires say bye..
Wengers well know for shifting on older players, its even a stated policy of his, 1 year contracts for over 30s or something like that.

Dortmund punch above their weight, they lose top players, and hang onto alot of players, just as Arsenal do, but they dont trot it out as an excuse when they underperform.

gosplan

Colonialboy wrote: »

Like I said in my post 'we may argue about how good they are' , my point is if the most successful managers in recent history, (Fergie,Pep,Jose) are willing to give older plays a bit role in the club/squad why isnt Wenger.

Bergkamp says hi ... Pires say bye..
Wengers well know for shifting on older players, its even a stated policy of his, 1 year contracts for over 30s or something like that.

Dortmund punch above their weight, they lose top players, and hang onto alot of players, just as Arsenal do, but they dont trot it out as an excuse when they underperform.

This is the thing. When asked who should take over from Wenger, everyone says Klopp and that's it.

I would have Jose and Klopp above him. After them I start worrying.

greendom

Colonialboy wrote: »

Like I said in my post 'we may argue about how good they are' , my point is if the most successful managers in recent history, (Fergie,Pep,Jose) are willing to give older plays a bit role in the club/squad why isnt Wenger.

Bergkamp says hi ... Pires say bye..
Wengers well know for shifting on older players, its even a stated policy of his, 1 year contracts for over 30s or something like that.

Dortmund punch above their weight, they lose top players, and hang onto alot of players, just as Arsenal do, but they dont trot it out as an excuse when they underperform.

It was but now we complain that Arteta is past it. Damned if he does....

.jacksparrow.

greendom wrote: »

It was but now we complain that Arteta is past it. Damned if he does....

No no. Wenger ain't getting away with it that easy.

Arteta is fine as a back up, I would have no problem.

But not as our number one DM.

Mr Blobby

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

No no. Wenger ain't getting away with it that easy.

Arteta is fine as a back up, I would have no problem.

But not as our number one DM.

Yeah i'd agree with this.

Colonialboy

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sick of getting embarrassed by top sides.

gosplan wrote: »

Me too and it's not even the fact that we lose. It's looking so pathetic and letting people like Skertl score twice in the first few minutes.

He said 'top sides'. Skertl plays for Liverpool.

Marty McFly

gosplan wrote: »

This is the thing. When asked who should take over from Wenger, everyone says Klopp and that's it.

I would have Jose and Klopp above him. After them I start worrying.

I wouldn't let that stop us I don't think Wengers time is up just yet but questions do need to be asked and answered.

But regards manager to take over yea it's a risky business but no one had heard of Wenger before he came to Arsenal can't be afraid of the unknown people are paid a lot of money to select the right manager.

Simeone is another name I'd throw forward.

Skylinehead

Colonialboy wrote: »

Like I said in my post 'we may argue about how good they are' , my point is if the most successful managers in recent history, (Fergie,Pep,Jose) are willing to give older plays a bit role in the club/squad why isnt Wenger.

We can argue about how good they are because it's a perfectly valid point, why would we want to play a crap 36 year old?

Bergkamp says hi ... Pires say bye..
Wengers well know for shifting on older players, its even a stated policy of his, 1 year contracts for over 30s or something like that.

It was 10 years ago, not any more.

Dortmund punch above their weight, they lose top players, and hang onto alot of players, just as Arsenal do, but they dont trot it out as an excuse when they underperform.

Dortmund most certainly do not punch above their weight, they're one of the biggest clubs in Germany and are in and around the top in Germany. What a surprise!

Colonialboy

Skylinehead wrote: »

We can argue about how good they are because it's a perfectly valid point, why would we want to play a crap 36 year old?


It was 10 years ago, not any more.


Dortmund most certainly do not punch above their weight, they're one of the biggest clubs in Germany and are in and around the top in Germany. What a surprise!

Ask Pepe, Fergie, Jose.. they can tell you why you might want to play a crap 36 year old. :P
If your squad is stretched due to injuries you might think its worth trying a 36 old. And when your a 20 year old striker from France just arrived to the Emirates and your training with one of the best strikers the PL has seen week in week out , you wont care if he is 36. Arsenals performances arent just down to the 90 mins you see on tv.

10 years .. your the one who went back in time and brought up Bergkamp. :rolleyes:

Great youve proven my point, thanks, you should have just given a thumbs up. ortmund have lost players and are still a Top team in Germany and played us off the park.

Irish Aris

Marty McFly wrote: »

I wouldn't let that stop us I don't think Wengers time is up just yet but questions do need to be asked and answered.

But regards manager to take over yea it's a risky business but no one had heard of Wenger before he came to Arsenal can't be afraid of the unknown people are paid a lot of money to select the right manager.

Simeone is another name I'd throw forward.

a good manager indeed, just a tad too temperamental for my liking. . .

gosplan

Marty McFly wrote: »

I wouldn't let that stop us I don't think Wengers time is up just yet but questions do need to be asked and answered.

But regards manager to take over yea it's a risky business but no one had heard of Wenger before he came to Arsenal can't be afraid of the unknown people are paid a lot of money to select the right manager.

Simeone is another name I'd throw forward.

Agree hugely with your first point.

For me, if we don't get 76+ points, then big questions need to be asked. I'd take mid 70's provided we stop capitulating against big teams.

I do think that in terms of Wenger's aims of transfers (3 players of exceptional quality), he did really well this summer.

He needs to prove that we're actually on a slow and steady rise as opposed to a flat status quo.

gosplan

And that's kind of the thing for me, we've been progressing in terms of comparative squad quality for a few years and it's showing in our results and consistency in the league.

And we're close.

If we could somehow just find that star striker and a good DMF.

God I wish we had signed Suarez that time!

Skylinehead

Colonialboy wrote: »

Ask Pepe, Fergie, Jose.. they can tell you why you might want to play a crap 36 year old. :P

I don't know, why would you?

10 years .. your the one who went back in time and brought up Bergkamp. :rolleyes:

It was an exception, but Wenger's bought 30+ year olds in since then.

Great youve proven my point, thanks, you should have just given a thumbs up. ortmund have lost players and are still a Top team in Germany and played us off the park.

Yes, they are. And we beat them last year. What about that?

.jacksparrow.

gosplan wrote: »

And that's kind of the thing for me, we've been progressing in terms of comparative squad quality for a few years and it's showing in our results and consistency in the league.

And we're close.

If we could somehow just find that star striker and a good DMF.

God I wish we had signed Suarez that time!

I don't buy into this points total stuff.

All that matters is where you finish in the league and 4th is our best friend.

Not good enough.

gosplan

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I don't buy into this points total stuff.

All that matters is where you finish in the league and 4th is our best friend.

Not good enough.

That makes no sense.

When Chelsea hire Jose and it all clicks, that has nothing to do with us. When Liverpool score 101 goals, that has nothing to do with us.

Last year we got 79 points. The year before that would have been 2nd.

If we made the same jump again, we would get second. If we went a bit further it would take an excellent season to beat us.

When teams like city are spending half a billion in a few years, you can't worry about them. All you can do is focus on your own team and put yourself in the best position.

gosplan

gosplan wrote: »

Agree hugely with your first point.

For me, if we don't get 76+ points, then big questions need to be asked. I'd take mid 70's provided we stop capitulating against big teams.

I do think that in terms of Wenger's aims of transfers (3 players of exceptional quality), he did really well this summer.

He needs to prove that we're actually on a slow and steady rise as opposed to a flat status quo.

We got 79 last season, 75/76 will be very tight for 4th let alone any argument about "progressing".

Hyzepher

I'd like to think that AW and the board sit down and look at the previous season and try and work out how to move up places. Based on last year the obvious areas that would help us were to improve goal scoring and add a little steel to the midfield.

If anything, adding a world class proven goalscorer can mask defensive issues somewhat as long as you are scoring and winning matches. When you fail to buy that type of player AND fail to buy in that other area then how can you expect to progress?

You can have all the talent in the world in midfield - even give up the chance to sign a world class player - but it isn't worth anything if you can't defend or cant score

.jacksparrow.

gosplan wrote: »

That makes no sense.

When Chelsea hire Jose and it all clicks, that has nothing to do with us. When Liverpool score 101 goals, that has nothing to do with us.

Last year we got 79 points. The year before that would have been 2nd.

If we made the same jump again, we would get second. If we went a bit further it would take an excellent season to beat us.

When teams like city are spending half a billion in a few years, you can't worry about them. All you can do is focus on your own team and put yourself in the best position.

All I care about is getting more points than the other teams, not what our points tally was last season or the season before

kronsington

I was just thinking there what things would be like if we hadn't scored late goals and v Palace and Everton.. This thread would really be in meltdown. On off the ball last night they made the point that while it's no use getting caught up I mob mentality, but every single one of us, all arsenal fans, all football fans can see where we need reinforcement: so we can't be wrong. I tentatively think we will get a result v Villa.. We have to really kick start our season.. Some poster here made a point about Ramsey in that he believed he may have started to believe his own hype, taken his eye off the ball and gotten a bit flash. Nothing solid to back this up, but I'm inclined to agree a bit. Remember last season Wenger was bemused when he heard of a modelling gig Tamsey had done. Scapegoating isn't much use either. The problem is collective in my opinion. Stems from the management but the teams collective mental fragility is the biggest issue for me

greendom

Am I stupid or hopelessly optimistic to think that after Tuesday the penny will have finally dropped and there is a realisation that we cannot give top level opponents the freedom of our half with just a couple of central defenders to keep their attack company.

wandatowell

Marty McFly wrote: »

Simeone is another name I'd throw forward.

If he did get the job then poor Grimandi would be packing his bags fairly soon after Arsene

Grimandi's assault on Simeone, missed by the referee, Hellmut Krug, came after the Argentine had tugged his shirt. It left his opponent needing six stitches to a cut near his eye.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/4774090/Grimandi-banned-for-Simeone-blow.html

wandatowell

wandatowell wrote: »

If he did get the job then poor Grimandi would be packing his bags fairly soon after Arsene

The fact he was so instrumental in signing Sanogo it may not be such a bad thing :pac:

farna_boy

kronsington wrote: »

I was just thinking there what things would be like if we hadn't scored late goals and v Palace and Everton.. This thread would really be in meltdown. On off the ball last night they made the point that while it's no use getting caught up I mob mentality, but every single one of us, all arsenal fans, all football fans can see where we need reinforcement: so we can't be wrong. I tentatively think we will get a result v Villa.. We have to really kick start our season.. Some poster here made a point about Ramsey in that he believed he may have started to believe his own hype, taken his eye off the ball and gotten a bit flash. Nothing solid to back this up, but I'm inclined to agree a bit. Remember last season Wenger was bemused when he heard of a modelling gig Tamsey had done. Scapegoating isn't much use either. The problem is collective in my opinion. Stems from the management but the teams collective mental fragility is the biggest issue for me

In fairness it wouldn't be something new for Ramsey. I remember a few years ago all he did everytime the ball came near him was try a fancy flick. It was totally infuriating to watch. It wasn't until he stopped do all that crap that he made the big improvement that we saw last season. Hopefully it's just another phase and he will cop himself on again.

dibs101

Just speaking of grimandi, completely forgot about when he punched simeone and when he elbowed guardiola in the face. Absolute legend, great goal by bobby at the end of the first clip. Off topic I know but think the thread could do with some lightening up.... COYG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1XeLFrMSKQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEGbRYhoqA4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

omega man

greendom wrote: »

Am I stupid or hopelessly optimistic to think that after Tuesday the penny will have finally dropped and there is a realisation that we cannot give top level opponents the freedom of our half with just a couple of central defenders to keep their attack company.

Ah bless.....

No you're certainly not stupid. Actually maybe we are all indeed stupid and wenger is actually a tactical genius. The only way we'd know for sure is a new manager with the same squad of players and see the difference. I suspect he'll see out his contract no matter what, even if we missed out on top 4 more than one season. It could be a long 3 years........

greendom

omega man wrote: »

Ah bless.....

No you're certainly not stupid. Actually maybe we are all indeed stupid and wenger is actually a tactical genius. The only way we'd know for sure is a new manager with the same squad of players and see the difference. I suspect he'll see out his contract no matter what, even if we missed out on top 4 more than one season. It could be a long 3 years........

The thing that really annoys me about Tuesday it wasn't as if all those players playing in more advanced positions could actually conjure up very much from an attacking perspective.

gosplan

It's Wenger's fault but it's not all tactics or squad.

Remember that time Eboue lost the plot and had to be subbed off after he came on as a sub? That wouldn't happen to other managers.

In the Vieira/Keane documentary, Vieira said that Wenger's key strength was that he trusts his players and gives his players full responsibility on the pitch. But then he also said this was his weakness.

Fabregas said when he left he discovered tactics. I think what he meant was that he discovered assigned roles and procedures for particular times during a match.

Wenger's just totally French. It's about expression on the pitch and individual flair. It kind of explains how we were never that good at defending.

O'Gara (to switch codes for a minute) was interesting when he spoke about coaching in France. He basically said that the French could be way better but they favour panache over effectiveness. He said that the coaches there refuse to break down a move into component parts, that you either so it off the cuff or it's not really playing. And from speaking to French people who look at the way England play, they just view it as anti-rugby.

And that also explains the problems a lot of players have with us. They have to be creative and mentally strong. I mean they're basically given guidelines as opposed to instruction and expected to just come up with the rest.

I think this might explain that it usually takes players some time to bed in like Ozil. He's been getting instructions all his life and now he has to just come up with it.

It also goes a long way to explaining our mental weakness. Wenger's ways mean that your head can go, just like Eboue. With clearly defined roles it's easier to keep your head and do the right thing at the time.

It's not ideal but you have to admit, it's an amazing principle to live by. My own opinion is that it's not effective but values are important and Wenger's one of a kind.

omega man

gosplan wrote: »

It's Wenger's fault but it's not all tactics or squad.

Remember that time Eboue lost the plot and had to be subbed off after he came on as a sub? That wouldn't happen to other managers.

In the Vieira/Keane documentary, Vieira said that Wenger's key strength was that he trusts his players and gives his players full responsibility on the pitch. But then he also said this was his weakness.

Fabregas said when he left he discovered tactics. I think what he meant was that he discovered assigned roles and procedures for particular times during a match.

Wenger's just totally French. It's about expression on the pitch and individual flair. It kind of explains how we were never that good at defending.

O'Gara (to switch codes for a minute) was interesting when he spoke about coaching in France. He basically said that the French could be way better but they favour panache over effectiveness. He said that the coaches there refuse to break down a move into component parts, that you either so it off the cuff or it's not really playing. And from speaking to French people who look at the way England play, they just view it as anti-rugby.

And that also explains the problems a lot of players have with us. They have to be creative and mentally strong. I mean they're basically given guidelines as opposed to instruction and expected to just come up with the rest.

I think this might explain that it usually takes players some time to bed in like Ozil. He's been getting instructions all his life and now he has to just come up with it.

It also goes a long way to explaining our mental weakness. Wenger's ways mean that your head can go, just like Eboue. With clearly defined roles it's easier to keep your head and do the right thing at the time.

It's not ideal but you have to admit, it's an amazing principle to live by. My own opinion is that it's not effective but values are important and Wenger's one of a kind.

Very good post.

Yes I suspect you're right in that he sends the team out with a certain tactical philosophy, individually and as a team, as opposed to a system type approach but once they're out there it's up to them to use their footballing brains and continuously adapt to the game.

For this to work he needs certain types of players ala the invincibles. He must give them 100% trust and they must trust him likewise. There's no room for a player who requires constant instructions or can't think on their feet so to speak. It's makes a lot of sense looking back over his arsenal time and even his Monaco tenure. He's been looking for that team ever since....

Jaafa

Wenger's just totally French. It's about expression on the pitch and individual flair. It kind of explains how we were never that good at defending.

I disagree with this, last year apart from those infamous matches we were pretty good. The year we got to the champions league final, we had an excellent defensive record there. Then of course there's the invincibles. I couldn't be bothered going back through each season but Im sure theres more where we did pretty well.

tayto lover

It's hard to know with Wenger to be honest.
When we're whipping teams people say that Wenger, the genius, got it spot on.
When we're getting a drubbing people say that Wenger hasn't a clue tactically.

What i see myself is that when we are being completely taken to the cleaners i.e. down our left side, Wenger does not seem to see it or just refuses to make changes. When there are big gaps between the defence and the midfield he doesn't seem to see it or he just ignores it.
I have often seen him take off a player who was playing well enough and leaving on someone who was rubbish.
Then we have this summer when he refused to buy a DM or replacement CB when everyone who has ever watched football seem to think we needed to buy.

wandatowell

dibs101 wrote: »

Just speaking of grimandi, completely forgot about when he punched simeone and when he elbowed guardiola in the face. Absolute legend, great goal by bobby at the end of the first clip. Off topic I know but think the thread could do with some lightening up.... COYG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1XeLFrMSKQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEGbRYhoqA4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Would love one or two dirty b@stards in the team.

Vieira/Bergkamp getting a dose of the mads and flinging back an elbow.

Tackles and red cards flying everywhere!!

Though now im on the subject, Alexis does looking like a right tough nut. cant see him taking any sh*t off anybody

Quazzie

gosplan wrote: »

It's Wenger's fault but it's not all tactics or squad.

Remember that time Eboue lost the plot and had to be subbed off after he came on as a sub? That wouldn't happen to other managers.

In the Vieira/Keane documentary, Vieira said that Wenger's key strength was that he trusts his players and gives his players full responsibility on the pitch. But then he also said this was his weakness.

Fabregas said when he left he discovered tactics. I think what he meant was that he discovered assigned roles and procedures for particular times during a match.

Wenger's just totally French. It's about expression on the pitch and individual flair. It kind of explains how we were never that good at defending.

O'Gara (to switch codes for a minute) was interesting when he spoke about coaching in France. He basically said that the French could be way better but they favour panache over effectiveness. He said that the coaches there refuse to break down a move into component parts, that you either so it off the cuff or it's not really playing. And from speaking to French people who look at the way England play, they just view it as anti-rugby.

And that also explains the problems a lot of players have with us. They have to be creative and mentally strong. I mean they're basically given guidelines as opposed to instruction and expected to just come up with the rest.

I think this might explain that it usually takes players some time to bed in like Ozil. He's been getting instructions all his life and now he has to just come up with it.

It also goes a long way to explaining our mental weakness. Wenger's ways mean that your head can go, just like Eboue. With clearly defined roles it's easier to keep your head and do the right thing at the time.

It's not ideal but you have to admit, it's an amazing principle to live by. My own opinion is that it's not effective but values are important and Wenger's one of a kind.

I agree with all of that except the last line. It's not amazing, it's careless, and he's been carried by the caliber of players that are/were at the club.

Spanish Johnny

I have been afraid to post here for the slating il get but anyway....this place is gone to pot since the beginning of the season with some of the worst type of reactionary hyperbole and sheep media mentality that was rare in this forum in the past.

We have played 5 competitive games. In that period Jack Wilshere, Olivier Giroud, Mesut Ozil, Mathieu Flamini and Mikel Arteta have been slated, cast off, disregarded and put up for sale by many on here. After 5 games. Hell even Chesney is headed towards the bench now with Mert. But wait...at the same time we have an unreal squad apparently yet we writing off 5 or 6 and now turning on the manager. Are some of you guys for real??

Jeez he has his faults lord we know that. It's a pity though we couldn't get more independent analytical thought on here (bar a few) rather than the reactionary twitter/media driven crap we are getting. Anyone that thinks Wenger is tactically clueless is simply the latter themselves...clueless and impervious to history, fact and ability to study those and make up their mind. Wenger while hugely influenced by attacking philosophy is not or has not been tactically clueless.

No Manager wins 3 EPL's, 5 FA Cups and goes 49 unbeaten if tactically clueless. He makes lots of mistakes...loads. Like every other manager. What makes me laugh most is calling him tactically clueless, always the same, predictable, etc. the very same people slating the 4-1-4-1 formation. It's 5 games in...he is trying this to maximise the teams potential. It is a tactical change. 5 games...maybe a lot of ye are addicted to Football Manager or something but this is real life. Maybe he will revert back when he thinks it has failed. Maybe it will succeed. This is football...none of this is preordained. For those of you who want instant gratification follow Cesc to the Kings Road.

W also shifted to 4-4-2 at two different points in big games last season mid game and guess what...we won! mourinho = master class....Wenger does it and we get out of jail. Anyone that things we are anything else than a work in progress and with expectations grander than that will be disappointed this year I think. Jesus I'm as disappointed as everyone else with Tuesday. This is the same team who were decimated with injury last season and pummelled Madrid 2-0 and should have put them out. A top quality side better than us. Yet we had people on here expecting the win.

We need to calm down here a bit and get some perspective 5 games into the season.

kronsington

Spanish Johnny wrote: »

I have been afraid to post here for the slating il get but anyway....this place is gone to pot since the beginning of the season with some of the worst type of reactionary hyperbole and sheep media mentality that was rare in this forum in the past.

We have played 5 competitive games. In that period Jack Wilshere, Olivier Giroud, Mesut Ozil, Mathieu Flamini and Mikel Arteta have been slated, cast off, disregarded and put up for sale by many on here. After 5 games. Hell even Chesney is headed towards the bench now with Mert. But wait...at the same time we have an unreal squad apparently yet we writing off 5 or 6 and now turning on the manager. Are some of you guys for real??

Jeez he has his faults lord we know that. It's a pity though we couldn't get more independent analytical thought on here (bar a few) rather than the reactionary twitter/media driven crap we are getting. Anyone that thinks Wenger is tactically clueless is simply the latter themselves...clueless and impervious to history, fact and ability to study those and make up their mind. Wenger while hugely influenced by attacking philosophy is not or has not been tactically clueless.

No Manager wins 3 EPL's, 5 FA Cups and goes 49 unbeaten if tactically clueless. He makes lots of mistakes...loads. Like every other manager. What makes me laugh most is calling him tactically clueless, always the same, predictable, etc. the very same people slating the 4-1-4-1 formation. It's 5 games in...he is trying this to maximise the teams potential. It is a tactical change. 5 games...maybe a lot of ye are addicted to Football Manager or something but this is real life. Maybe he will revert back when he thinks it has failed. Maybe it will succeed. This is football...none of this is preordained. For those of you who want instant gratification follow Cesc to the Kings Road.

W also shifted to 4-4-2 at two different points in big games last season mid game and guess what...we won! mourinho = master class....Wenger does it and we get out of jail. Anyone that things we are anything else than a work in progress and with expectations grander than that will be disappointed this year I think. Jesus I'm as disappointed as everyone else with Tuesday. This is the same team who were decimated with injury last season and pummelled Madrid 2-0 and should have put them out. A top quality side better than us. Yet we had people on here expecting the win.

We need to calm down here a bit and get some perspective 5 games into the season.

The core problems of the team have been there a lot longer than the 5 games you've repeatedly mentioned here, I.e mental weakness and failure to strengthen significantly in key areas. These are the major problems. I don't agree with those who say Wenger is inept tactically but for the most part I think most of the criticism this week has been reasoned and legitimate. Of course there's some hyperbole, the good and the bad, it's part and parcel of this glorious thread!

To write AW and the team off after 5 games is of course ridiculous. I just think most people are pissed off by the failure to tackle the glaringly obvious weaknesses that have been staring us in the face for a long time. We do really need to step it up now though, starting with a good win v Villa which I think we will get

I've been very consistent with my criticisms, I'm not being reactionary. Hell, I pretty much predicted the current injury mess at the back.