Arsenal Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Notes in OP 24/08

the untitled user

Marty McFly wrote: »

One could also say how many times last season did Giroud try flicks that didn't work? How many times were people getting frustrated time after time when flicks didn't work out? How many times were through balls tried but Giroud didn't have the pace to latch onto them? How many vital chances in big games did he miss in big games were chances are limited?

Well that's a stupid set of questions. How many passes does Xavi/Ozil/Cesc/etc. make in a game compared with the amount that result in goals?

Oh, land let me remind people, who missed a one on one in the Champions League final to put us 2 - 0 up?

Marty McFly wrote: »

A front three of consisting of Ox, Walcott, Sanchez, Campbell or Gnabry in different variations excites me and is full of pace and skill.

A front three consisting of largely the same type of player... who will look to occupy the same space and do roughly the same thing... As you might guess, I wouldn't agree with what you are saying.

Marty McFly wrote: »

On Giroud being our player of the season absolutely zilch .

We'll see. So much can happen between now and May! That's the fun of it

shano_88

Raf32 wrote: »

If Kos or Chambers were to get injured tomorrow, we would be in big trouble. Hopefully we can get a body in before next Saturday. Reid for me.

Definetly need someone and as soon as possible. Not sure about Reid though.

gosplan

gosplan wrote: »

All people are saying is that it's not that simple.

Drogba is 0.41, Benzema is 0.44

Neither good enough?

We just don't want Giroud as our principal goal threat which is what he was last year.

Edited to include: I should also say that I'm not out for any animosity despite rows we may have had.

Generally I think that if we're going to be filling the squad with Ozil and Sanchez level type players, then sooner or later the axe will fall on Giroud.

But I think he's done enough to earn a chance in a team that will play to his strengths rather than expose his weaknesses.

You could have stuck Drogba up top for us last year and with no crosses coming in and no-one making runs near him, he would have looked very ordinary.

I make Benzema 0.46 and Drogba 0.52. Both very different players in very different teams. Though.

My point is that if he's not going to be our top scorer for the next while then he shouldn't be the starting striker. I also don't think he's suited to the tactics that one would think we should be playing with Ozil and the like in midfield.

AdamD

His goal tally is only part of the issue really. Its his record against the top 6 that hurts us. I don't mind having Arteta and Giroud against the other 14 teams in the league, they're actually very effective in those games, but we need something different for the big games.

gosplan

Deleted User wrote: »

I make Benzema 0.46 and Drogba 0.52. Both very different players in very different teams. Though.

My point is that if he's not going to be our top scorer for the next while then he shouldn't be the starting striker. I also don't think he's suited to the tactics that one would think we should be playing with Ozil and the like in midfield.

I honestly think it's largely Wenger's fault.

For me it all comes back to the big man up top in a five man midfield. We had 5 central midfielders trying to play a tiki-taka game and Giroud like a fish out of water.

Jose when he got Drogba ensured that he had Duff, Robben, Cole and SWP for the wide positions - backup and rotation options. I mean if you're sticking a big man up top, you can't just lose the wing forwards.

Same thing happened with Ibramovic at Barca. No 6 foot plus bulky player is mobile enough for that.

Like I said, Giroud might not be the answer long term but IMO we had bigger priorities this season. I think he deserves a year playing with the right support.

If we get a DMF, then an Ageuro or Suarez is next on the list IMO.

Soups123

AdamD wrote: »

His goal tally is only part of the issue really. Its his record against the top 6 that hurts us. I don't mind having Arteta and Giroud against the other 14 teams in the league, they're actually very effective in those games, but we need something different for the big games.

Tbh I'm not convinced by Giroud but I'd call in to question the performance of most our squad against a top 6 team!

farna_boy

AdamD wrote: »

His goal tally is only part of the issue really. Its his record against the top 6 that hurts us. I don't mind having Arteta and Giroud against the other 14 teams in the league, they're actually very effective in those games, but we need something different for the big games.

The whole team was the problem against the top six. Blaming it on any one or two players is very naive and just papering over the obvious problems in the team. None of the big loses were solely the responsibility of Giroud (or even Arteta).

AdamD

They weren't soley responsible but early misses against City and Chelsea in particular could have resulted in entirely different games.

The tactical effect of those two players is massive. Big teams target Arteta with high pressing which pushes us very deep and Giroud's lack of pace means they get away with it. Players like Walcott and Sanchez should help guard against this but I'd like to remove the weaknesses rather than attempt to mask them. If we're getting high pressed our wingers will need to defend too, its difficult to do that and be expected to run the channels to make up for a slow striker.

Redzer7

Sad to see him go, good piece of business provided we get in a replacement though, No hard feelings, good luck TV5!!

gosplan

farna_boy wrote: »

The whole team was the problem against the top six. Blaming it on any one or two players is very naive and just papering over the obvious problems in the team. None of the big loses were solely the responsibility of Giroud (or even Arteta).

Our attack was so one-paced and utterly pedestrian that the big teams could just soak up the pressure and counter.

There was also the issue about focus and resolve as we just shipped goals at an embarrassing rate in two of the games.

But for me, yeah, it was a second rate tiki-taka with the wrong striker and an absence of the whole 'win the ball back quickly' side of things.

wandatowell

Those defeats hurt the team, cant see use getting turned over do easily this season.


COYG

tayto lover

wandatowell wrote: »

Those defeats hurt the team, cant see use getting turned over do easily this season.


COYG

It was more than just the team.
Wenger was tactically naive in some of those defeats especially the ones at Stamford Bridge and Anfield..

HazDanz

tayto lover wrote: »

It was more than just the team.
Wenger was tactically naive in some of those defeats especially the ones at Stamford Bridge and Anfield..

Wenger admitted as much after the Chelsea game which was unusual.

Not sure about Anfield.

By selling TV5 to Barca, we've pretty much guaranteed getting barca in the second round of UCL, (if we get that far!)

Marty McFly

the untitled user wrote: »

Well that's a stupid set of questions. How many passes does Xavi/Ozil/Cesc/etc. make in a game compared with the amount that result in goals?

Oh, land let me remind people, who missed a one on one in the Champions League final to put us 2 - 0 up?



A front three consisting of largely the same type of player... who will look to occupy the same space and do roughly the same thing... As you might guess, I wouldn't agree with what you are saying.



We'll see. So much can happen between now and May! That's the fun of it

So my questions which counteracted your questions, on how many flicks did Giroud provide for goals are stupid but yours are valid? Ok.

Hell will freeze over before Giroud is our player of the season. I've as much chance of winning it.

gosplan

I dunno, tactics and setup aside, you can't ignore that in the Chelsea and Liverpool away games, we had a serious mental problem.

Possibly in the Utd games too but they were too poor to do anything about it at the time.

The only comparable event was Brazil in the semis of the WC but that was probably the most pressure those players will ever be under and the knew they plainly weren't good enough.

The worry for me is that because it goes beyond tactics and formation (shipping 4 goals in 20 mins), it can't be solved by those things.

I think it might be about the way Wenger gives his players so much freedom on the pitch. When their heads go, there's no just resort back to the basics of my job because they're not defined enough. This is all speculation of course but I think it's why Eboue was subbed on and off that time and players like Chamakh and Gerv went so useless. I think to play Wenger's game you really need to be in the zone - there's no automaticity to it. You'd never see a Jose team do it for example because they're so well drilled.

the untitled user

gosplan wrote: »

I think it might be about the way Wenger gives his players so much freedom on the pitch. When their heads go, there's no just resort back to the basics of my job because they're not defined enough. This is all speculation of course but I think it's why Eboue was subbed on and off that time and players like Chamakh and Gerv went so useless. I think to play Wenger's game you really need to be in the zone - there's no automaticity to it. You'd never see a Jose team do it for example because they're so well drilled.

You're touching on something here that's bigger than just Arsenal. It's to do with how players are coached these days as kids, most of them are constantly drilled and told exactly what to do on and off the field from a very young age. It's getting so bad that they basically can't think for themselves, many young players literally panic when they encounter a scenario on the pitch that they haven't rehearsed in training.

This is a big problem for Wenger's approach in particular because his philosophy is all about developing the players as individuals, and letting them make the decisions on the pitch. It's the approach that made The Invincibles so successful, but at the same time it's what's undermining the recent generations of Arsenal players (i.e. those coached in early 00s), because they've literally been coached not to do it before they arrive at Arsenal!

My suspicions are the recent breakdowns we've seen in the team's mentality are linked to this. Wenger get's the tactics wrong, and the players literally have no response. It would also go some way to explain why the likes of Gervinho and Chamakh could never regain form neither.

Give Stillness and Speed a read if you haven't, Dennis Bergkamp goes into great detail about this through what he encountered during his work at Ajax. And he also ultimately blames Van Gaal for the introduction of this culture!

dinorebel

Sanchez is a great addition and will tear up the Premiership this season(hopefully) but I think Campbell and Chambers are the more significant signings IMO they have the potential to be top players for the next 8 to ten years.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

By selling TV5 to Barca, we've pretty much guaranteed getting barca in the second round of UCL, (if we get that far!)

Stop being so negative.

Just to be clear, nothing against Giroud. If we played something like a 424 with a proper DM alongside Ramsey in the 2 and Ozil, Sanchez, Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain as the 4 then I can't see anyone stopping it.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Stop being so negative.

Never said we'd lose :P

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Never said we'd lose :P

Oh I see, I have to be more subtle about it. :pac:

Look lads, when it comes down to it, I don't think Sanchez is enough for us to win the league and that's what I crave. At the same time I don't see us having a better than 50/50 chance of getting past the quarters in the CL. I'd love to be proven wrong. I've broken more bones and walls supporting Arsenal than any of yous. :pac:

gnfnrhead

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh I see, I have to be more subtle about it. :pac:

Look lads, when it comes down to it, I don't think Sanchez is enough for us to win the league and that's what I crave. At the same time I don't see us having a better than 50/50 chance of getting past the quarters in the CL. I'd love to be proven wrong. I've broken more bones and walls supporting Arsenal than any of yous. :pac:

We were close last season and that was with crippling injuries. We're not as far off as the media like to pretend. A top DM and I'm off to the bookies.

gnfnrhead

gnfnrhead wrote: »

We were close last season and that was with crippling injuries. We're not as far off as the media like to pretend. A top DM and I'm off to the bookies.

We weren't that close. I kept a tally going of points from corresponding fixtures from the season before, there wasn't a huge improvement. Trouble is we're probably more vulnerable to being "crippled" by injuries now than we were last year.

gnfnrhead

Deleted User wrote: »

We weren't that close. I kept a tally going of points from corresponding fixtures from the season before, there wasn't a huge improvement. Trouble is we're probably more vulnerable to being "crippled" by injuries now than we were last year.

We were 7 points off. It was 16 the season before. Not sure how you can say that isn't close.

salmocab

Last season the matches against the other top 4 teams is where we lost it, you would normally expect to win 2 or 3 of these games and draw 1 or 2, as these are the '6 pointer' matches an extra draw is not just 1 point gained but also 1 point off the team above, then a win is 3 extra and 3 off them which in the shake up makes the difference between champions and just qualifying for europe. 7 points off top is not a lot really 3 or 4 results might have been the difference and I think the way things are going we can certainly get those results this season.

gosplan

salmocab wrote: »

Last season the matches against the other top 4 teams is where we lost it, you would normally expect to win 2 or 3 of these games and draw 1 or 2, as these are the '6 pointer' matches an extra draw is not just 1 point gained but also 1 point off the team above, then a win is 3 extra and 3 off them which in the shake up makes the difference between champions and just qualifying for europe. 7 points off top is not a lot really 3 or 4 results might have been the difference and I think the way things are going we can certainly get those results this season.

If we got another 7 points, it would take a better than average winning season to beat us.

If we picked up some of those points against the top 2 teams, ten it would really have to be an excellent season to beat us.

.jacksparrow.

gnfnrhead wrote: »

We were close last season and that was with crippling injuries. We're not as far off as the media like to pretend. A top DM and I'm off to the bookies.

I really think were not getting that DM this transfer window.

tayto lover

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I really think were not getting that DM this transfer window.

That would be a terrible mistake for Wenger to make imo.
Flamini and Arteta are too slow but could be used sparingly against lesser opponents. People talking about Jack for that role is a non-starter for me as he is too small and easily dis-possessed.

To beat the big boys we need a big, fast no-nonsense brute to operate and command the space ahead of the back four.

.jacksparrow.

tayto lover wrote: »

That would be a terrible mistake for Wenger to make imo.
Flamini and Arteta are too slow but could be used sparingly against lesser opponents. People talking about Jack for that role is a non-starter for me as he is too small and easily dis-possessed.

To beat the big boys we need a big, fast no-nonsense brute to operate and command the space ahead of the back four.

Totally agree, but can see us getting a utility cb/dm.

Why else is arteta gonna be made captain, well looks that way.

We only have room for one more player in our squad, it won't be the big DM we have been screaming for since Gilberto left.

Irish Aris

Deleted User wrote: »

We weren't that close. I kept a tally going of points from corresponding fixtures from the season before, there wasn't a huge improvement. Trouble is we're probably more vulnerable to being "crippled" by injuries now than we were last year.

I have to say, I never bought into this "corresponding fixtures from the season before" thing. As we were different, most teams were different so this tells only part of the story (and not a very big one, me thinks).

I get your point though.
Maybe this year it won't be the one that we will win the league, but we could be close enough. 7 points last year wasn't a huge gap to begin with - a couple of home game wins instead of draws and we would have been telling a different story.

Injuries will be a big factor - as you said, defensively we could potentially have issues. With Vermaelen gone I would consider this even a bigger priority than DM.

Anyway, hope we can enjoy a nice season of football!!!

the untitled user

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I really think were not getting that DM this transfer window.

Well, technically we have, given that Wenger is looking to groom Chambers for that role. Given that Chambers can play there, I think the urgency is gone (i.e. we won't pay ridiculously over the odds in that position) but I still think Wenger is keen to get someone in, especially given that Flamini and Arteta are both the wrong side of 30.

.jacksparrow.

the untitled user wrote: »

Well, technically we have, given that Wenger is looking to groom Chambers for that role. Given that Chambers can play there, I think the urgency is gone (i.e. we won't pay ridiculously over the odds in that position) but I still think Wenger is keen to get someone in, especially given that Flamini and Arteta are both the wrong side of 30.

Agree but just don't think it will be this year, I reckon he sees another season in arteta.

fulmer1984

At the match today lads, ill try get some pics up later 😊

extra gravy

Very interesting article on Shad Forsythe and the fitness methods employed by the Germans

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/09/arsene-wenger-arsenal-new-fitness-coach-shad-forsythe-germany-world-cup

CatInABox

extra gravy wrote: »

Very interesting article on Shad Forsythe and the fitness methods employed by the Germans

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/09/arsene-wenger-arsenal-new-fitness-coach-shad-forsythe-germany-world-cup

Very interesting all right. Presumably, the issues that the German set up had with player buy in won't be as much of an issue as it's now at club level rather than national level (i.e. Shad is now wrking with them on a daily basis long term).

Still though, it seems to be a long term project. While I'd expect some results straight away, we perhaps won't see the full results for at least a year or two.

greendom

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Trouble is we're probably more vulnerable to being "crippled" by injuries now than we were last year.

How so ?

Mickeroo

greendom wrote: »

How so ?

We have only 6 players covering 4 positions at the back, the only one of those that's apparently in any way versatile enough to play more than one of those positions at the moment is a relatively unproven 19 year old who is seen as a midfielder by the manager.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of time to get a couple of players in but at this moment in time it's pretty fair to say we are worse off for cover in that part of the field for now.

In other news, praise Jebus there is a semi-competitive match on today involving Arsenal :pac:

tayto lover

I don't imagine we will see a very strong team selected today. City not playing any of the players who went to the U.S. either.
It would be foolish to risk many important players in a mickey mouse cup game.
I would like to see Chambers and Hayden as CB's though and Sanogo up front.

Alfred Borden

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't imagine we will see a very strong team selected today. City not playing any of the players who went to the U.S. either.
It would be foolish to risk many important players in a mickey mouse cup game.
I would like to see Chambers and Hayden as CB's though and Sanogo up front.

Hayden not in the squad anyways according to his twitter. If I see Miquel play ill cry :pac:

Mickeroo

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't imagine we will see a very strong team selected today. City not playing any of the players who went to the U.S. either.
It would be foolish to risk many important players in a mickey mouse cup game.
I would like to see Chambers and Hayden as CB's though and Sanogo up front.

Rumour is Sanchez will start up front on his own.

I'd say we'll see a reasonably strong team without risking anyone who isn't fully fit. Mickey mouse or no Wenger will want to make a statement today if possible.

Topbike77

Adios amigo, I wish him the best of luck at barca.

Jaafa

I'm happy enough for Wenger to use today's game as a chance to experiment with trying a new formation or to play players in new positions. It would be a nice morale boost to win but as we know with Man U last year winning the cup means little.

Quazzie

TV and Fabianski are two players who I was hoping would stay, in fairness though, both are too good to be bench warmers. I can see TV having a real impact at Barca. I think their style of play will suit him.

greendom

Mickeroo wrote: »

We have only 6 players covering 4 positions at the back, the only one of those that's apparently in any way versatile enough to play more than one of those positions at the moment is a relatively unproven 19 year old who is seen as a midfielder by the manager.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of time to get a couple of players in but at this moment in time it's pretty fair to say we are worse off for cover in that part of the field for now.

In other news, praise Jebus there is a semi-competitive match on today involving Arsenal :pac:

I think a centre-back will be brought in pretty quickly. It has been known for a while that TV is leaving so a back up must be in the offing.

tayto lover

greendom wrote: »

I think a centre-back will be brought in pretty quickly. It has been known for a while that TV is leaving so a back up must be in the offing.

Carvalho can play CB and DM i've read, so if that is true it's a no-brainer.

Gringo180

Just back from my ban so have missed alot, whats everybodies feelings on Verm leaving, I think him going to Barca was the best outcome and the reported 15 million fee was a great bit of business on our part considering he only had a year remaining on his contract. On another point we still haven't managed to sort out the most important weakness in our side the defensive midfield role, I feel if we dont get somebody to sit in front of the defence and break up play we will be found out again in the big games.

Irish Aris

team to play Man City: Szczesny, Debuchy, Koscielny, Chambers, Gibbs, Arteta, Wilshere, Ramsey, Alexis, Cazorla, Sanogo

Subs: Martinez, Monreal, Flamini, Campbell, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Rosicky, Giroud

A strong enough team I reckon, let's see how this goes!!!

Redzer7

Not confident one bit

Skylinehead

Flamini should have started.