Dettori

FIVE2_THREE

Frankie is headed to the states to ride at Saratoga. was He fired by the Qutari's ? He has looked like a lost sheep since Godolphin showed him the door.

rossom

Wesley Ward convinced him to come over to ride for him on the weekend as he was probably impressed with how he handled Undrafted in the July Cup

nuckeythompson

Just for the weekend based on what Im reading. Its very sad to see a man like him fall from grace. Also its no secret that he has been hit severely in the pocket since the godolphin departure and its one of the reasons his home is up for sale to downsize.

droidman123

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Frankie is headed to the states to ride at Saratoga. was He fired by the Qutari's ? He has looked like a lost sheep since Godolphin showed him the door.

Hope he stays in Saratoga, I could never stand the guy.good jockey,but his personality just does my head in,he thinks he is a witty,funny character but he isn't,he he just annoying.

FIVE2_THREE

nuckeythompson wrote: »

Just for the weekend based on what Im reading. Its very sad to see a man like him fall from grace. Also its no secret that he has been hit severely in the pocket since the godolphin departure and its one of the reasons his home is up for sale to downsize.

His situation with Al Shaqab has always been a confusing one. He was/is the stable rider but only if the horse was a non Hannon trained horse.Al Shaqab has Asyad and Jarada still entered in the Irish oaks at this stage. and both are none Hannon trained horses. one trained by Stoute and the other by Royer-Dupre.
It's hard to believe that they would let their stable rider go to the states when they have two entered in a group one.

nuckeythompson

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

His situation with Al Shaqab has always been a confusing one. He was/is the stable rider but only if the horse was a non Hannon trained horse.Al Shaqab has Asyad and Jarada still entered in the Irish oaks at this stage. and both are none Hannon trained horses. one trained by Stoute and the other by Royer-Dupre.
It's hard to believe that they would let their stable rider go to the states when they have two entered in a group one.

Interesting to see how this pans out. Could it be those runners are unlikely to run? or could he be out the door?

FIVE2_THREE

nuckeythompson wrote: »

Interesting to see how this pans out. Could it be those runners are unlikely to run? or could he be out the door?

Looking at their upcoming entries they have the Hannon trained Osaila cross entered in the 8:10 at Doncaster on the 17th with Frankie set to ride and the 2:30 at Newbury on the 18th.

hucklebuck

droidman123 wrote: »

Hope he stays in Saratoga, I could never stand the guy.good jockey,but his personality just does my head in,he thinks he is a witty,funny character but he isn't,he he just annoying.

Cant stand him and the hype around him. Sure 7 in a row is some feat but has done terrible since with the top horses. Loads of people quick to question Joey at 19, yet this muppet seems to have gone under the radar for the last number of years.

In terms of wit and entertainment I would put him in the Matty Bachelor camp, if yiz want to jump around and pull stupid faces become Lee Evans impersonators cause yiz are **** jockeys.

FIVE2_THREE

hucklebuck wrote: »

Cant stand him and the hype around him. Sure 7 in a row is some feat but has done terrible since with the top horses. Loads of people quick to question Joey at 19, yet this muppet seems to have gone under the radar for the last number of years.

In terms of wit and entertainment I would put him in the Matty Bachelor camp, if yiz want to jump around and pull stupid faces become Lee Evans impersonators cause yiz are **** jockeys.

Along those same lines I've been saying the same thing about Aidan for over a decade. People often talk about how many top horses He has but often forget the Saeed Bin Suroor has under performed year after year with his top stock.
If Saeed worked for anybody else He would have been fired 10 years ago.

ComplyOrDie

hucklebuck wrote: »

Cant stand him and the hype around him. Sure 7 in a row is some feat but has done terrible since with the top horses.

In fairness Hucklebuck what top horses are you talking about? Richard Hughes hardly set the world alight when he was working for the Prince and now that he's in a very consistent yard booting in the winners (A lot of confidence) he's on a list of decent jockeys (don’t mean to take away from RH, just using him as an example), Your ammunition and the trainers backing you have a major impact on how well you do.

nuckeythompson

droidman123 wrote: »

Hope he stays in Saratoga, I could never stand the guy.good jockey,but his personality just does my head in,he thinks he is a witty,funny character but he isn't,he he just annoying.

Love him or loathe him to be fair he is one of the few jockeys that can actually talk in front of a camera. I remember some media course in the UK where they wanted to send the likes of Ryan Moore etc as jockeys are notoriously bad in front of the camera. I would have said Frankie was great for promoting racing up until his cocaine issue

zpehtsfd

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

His situation with Al Shaqab has always been a confusing one. He was/is the stable rider but only if the horse was a non Hannon trained horse.

The owners obviously decided to let Hughsie continue to ride the Hannon horses because it was mid-season when Frankie got the contract. Frankie now has first choice on all their runners incl. Hannons.

Racing is full of bores and chancers and Frankie is a pleasant change from all of that. Can't believe someone compared him to Matty Bachelor. :eek: Frankie will be a huge loss to racing when he goes. IMO.

Gregk961

I've always been a fan to be honest. A jockey room full of Ryan Moore types and you may as well be dealing with actual robots (not taking away from ryan hes is an amazing jockey, just has the personality of a ham sandwich)

Dettori has definatly given out some poor rides in the last few years though seems to have lost his sparkle

FIVE2_THREE

zpehtsfd wrote: »

The owners obviously decided to let Hughsie continue to ride the Hannon horses because it was mid-season when Frankie got the contract. Frankie now has first choice on all their runners incl. Hannons.

Racing is full of bores and chancers and Frankie is a pleasant change from all of that. Can't believe someone compared him to Matty Bachelor. :eek: Frankie will be a huge loss to racing when he goes. IMO.

I see both sides. I can see why people call him overrated and I can see why people like him.in his early days people were putting him and King lester in the same sentence. But these days He has lost a lot of the air that once filled his sails.Looking at his accomplishments I think he hasn't lived up to expectations. winning only one Derby and being named champion jockey only three times despite ridding most of his career for one of the two superpowers of thoroughbred racing.

FIVE2_THREE

Gregk961 wrote: »

I've always been a fan to be honest. A jockey room full of Ryan Moore types and you may as well be dealing with actual robots (not taking away from ryan hes is an amazing jockey, just has the personality of a ham sandwich)

Dettori has definatly given out some poor rides in the last few years though seems to have lost his sparkle

Ryan gets a lot of grief for not being a media whore but Lester was the same way.He didn't talk much to the media and let his winning do the talking for him.

Pinesky

whatever about frankie , how long can Frank Spencer keep drawing his salary ?.

droidman123

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Ryan gets a lot of grief for not being a media whore but Lester was the same way.He didn't talk much to the media and let his winning do the talking for him.

someone once described lester of "having a face like a well kept graveyard". I take the point about the piggots and the moores of this world being somewhat dour, but there just something about dettori that annoys me, once I see him being interviewd on tv I reach for the remote control. there has been many great "characters" in racing over the years, but imo dettori is not one of them.

Andalucia

Crisford finished Dettori off, he thought Al Zarooni was the business, it was the start of the end for Dettori when they drafted in those super jocks de Sousa and Barcelona. This dented his confidence in a major way, When the confidence goes in these top jocks, its not a pretty sight.

Who in the name of God will give Crisford a horse to ruin, granted he was only a puppet with the ear of the Sheikh, but that Godolphin operation the past few years makes the Shark look a champion trainer.

As for Spencer, what an enigma that boy is. The most one dimensional jockey riding, almost certain to find all the trouble going in a race trying to come from last to first. Would prefer an apprentice claiming 10 lbs anytime over Spencer

paddyisreal

Super jockey. Over 200 group 1 wins and people question him. Very few jockeys in the same league as him.

Itziger

paddyisreal wrote: »

Super jockey. Over 200 group 1 wins and people question him. Very few jockeys in the same league as him.

But people are mostly saying, a) He's a bit of a jerk/media whore and /or b) He is now gone to the dogs. You could argue with the first..... Hard to argue with the second.

paddyisreal

As fallon said you dont become a bad jockey overnight its just the horses you are riding are not as good. Give me frankie over 90 percent of jockeys in a group one any day of the week

FIVE2_THREE

paddyisreal wrote: »

Super jockey. Over 200 group 1 wins and people question him. Very few jockeys in the same league as him.

And of those 200 Group 1 wins only ONE Derby and only ONE Irish Derby that's a stark record given who rode for most of his career. Frankie Dettori and Saeed Bin Suroor have drastically under performed with the top shelf stock they have been provided with in their careers. for some reason people overlook that OFTEN

FIVE2_THREE

paddyisreal wrote: »

As fallon said you dont become a bad jockey overnight its just the horses you are riding are not as good. Give me frankie over 90 percent of jockeys in a group one any day of the week

What is He 1 for 30 in the Derby ? any day of the week except the first Saturday in June right ? LOL

Ian Whelan

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

What is He 1 for 30 in the Derby ? any day of the week except the first Saturday in June right ? LOL

Tony McCoy has a similar record in the Grand National but there's no doubting his ability. 7 winners in 1 day at Royal Ascot is simply amazing. Dettori is an excellent jockey and seems like a genuinely nice guy. Willie Carson won 4 English Derbys and most would agree that Dettori is the better rider. Joseph O'Brien has won 2 English Derbys for heaven's sake so it's really not a good way to measure ability.

paddyisreal

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

And of those 200 Group 1 wins only ONE Derby and only ONE Irish Derby that's a stark record given who rode for most of his career. Frankie Dettori and Saeed Bin Suroor have drastically under performed with the top shelf stock they have been provided with in their careers. for some reason people overlook that OFTEN

you have a major hard on for the derbys and aob/job. The premier mile and half race in europe without doubt is the arc. How mant times have your heros won that ? Frankie did it three times. You must be on a windup.

FIVE2_THREE

Ian Whelan wrote: »

Tony McCoy has a similar record in the Grand National but there's no doubting his ability. 7 winners in 1 day at Royal Ascot is simply amazing. Dettori is an excellent jockey and seems like a genuinely nice guy. Willie Carson won 4 English Derbys and most would agree that Dettori is the better rider. Joseph O'Brien has won 2 English Derbys for heaven's sake so it's really not a good way to measure ability.

I disagree. JOB rides for Coolmore in what will be a short career and won 2. FD rode first call for Godolphin for 20 YEARS during those 20 years Godolphin was one of the two powerhouses in the world of flat racing. When Willie rode for Shadwell they were not a world power but He still won 2 for them. As far as Mc Coy goes I don't think his struggles with the grand national is on par with Dettori and His weak Derby record. Notice I mentioned Dettori's record in the Epsom Derby and the Irish Derby. Despite Mc Coy's record in the grand national there is still little doubt that He is the best in his code in the world. Have you ever looked at Dettori at any point in his career and said that He was indisputably the best flat jockey in the world ?

FIVE2_THREE

paddyisreal wrote: »

you have a major hard on for the derbys and aob/job. The premier mile and half race in europe without doubt is the arc. How mant times have your heros won that ? Frankie did it three times. You must be on a windup.

No, I judge Jockeys By Classic wins. because you only get one crack at it. there is a reason why Lester Piggot's 9 Derbies are always mentioned.

paddyisreal

So arcs dont matter ? Lol

FIVE2_THREE

paddyisreal wrote: »

So arcs dont matter ? Lol

Sure they do. and last I looked Lester won 3 including 2 in a row on the only horse to ever do it. Alleged. I sure hope you're not comparing Frankie to Lester.

ComplyOrDie

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

And of those 200 Group 1 wins only ONE Derby and only ONE Irish Derby that's a stark record given who rode for most of his career.

In fairness FIVE2_THREE if that’s how you define a Jockey then you need to open your eyes. Gordon Richards won nearly 5,000 races including 4/5 classics in one year and the Derby eluded him for 20 odd years. We understand he may not be your favourite jockey and he certainly isn’t mine but if you ride 200 G1 winners all around the world (especially for an outfit like the Blues) then you are closer to the top than to the bottom. What exactly has Barcelona/De souse and the others done since they took over? Won a ledger thats about it. I’d have Frankie before I’d have the two above any day of the week even if it were Derby day.

The Hurricane

Cant believe some of the negative comments here about in my opinion the best jockey of all time. If i had a decent racehorse Frankie would ride him everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Hes not a retained jockey by a big stable anymore hence the lack of quality rides. Hes a controversial character who's had his problems aired out in the media which everyone knows about. Hes one of the main reasons Flat racing is so popular and on the map. I've never seen anyone try so hard on a horse when they are in contention or creative taking a chance going the awkward way to get a gap and know when to go and when to not. When he went through the card in Ascot 3 or 4 of those horses were quality the rest were average his talent and ability as a jockey got them over the line. I don't think anyone else could do it to be honest I agree hes not got a great record in the derby but has he not won nearly every other classic there is in England America France Germany Italy etc ? The best horse he ever rode Lammtarra died the other day won the derby Walter Swinburne had the ride in derby , but he went on to win the King George and the Arch with Frankie on board. Hes ridden so many great horses in the past and of higher breeding quality. I was 19 when I walked into the bookies on a Saturday as a Galway student with 10 pounds. I walked out with just over 5k solely because of Frankie Dettori that's the most I ever won and I don't believe any other jockey will go through the card at a premium meeting like that again. I met him at the curragh racecourse said hello and had a brief chat he was rushing for the weights room and made a few stops getting photos taken with kids and their folks seemed like a genuine guy. I remember him winning after he was nearly killed in a plane crash how emotional he was and how grateful to the person who pulled him out, sometimes comes across a cocky but to do the job he does confidence is key. Best flat jockey in the world all things considered if hes riding a half decent horse.

FIVE2_THREE

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

In fairness FIVE2_THREE if that’s how you define a Jockey then you need to open your eyes. Gordon Richards won nearly 5,000 races including 4/5 classics in one year and the Derby eluded him for 20 odd years. We understand he may not be your favourite jockey and he certainly isn’t mine but if you ride 200 G1 winners all around the world (especially for an outfit like the Blues) then you are closer to the top than to the bottom. What exactly has Barcelona/De souse and the others done since they took over? Won a ledger thats about it. I’d have Frankie before I’d have the two above any day of the week even if it were Derby day.

I see your point BUT Gordon Richards was not ridding for one of the preeminent powerhouses of the sport for most of his career. I use the classics as a measuring point because everything must come together. the right horse, the right conditioning and the jockey must have the right nerve.Gordon Richards was an excellent jockey but he wasn't ridding nowhere near the quality of animal Godolphin had over the 20 years Frankie was employed there. I think Frankie is a quality jockey even at this point but people who praise him cant have it both ways. they can't mention the 200 group ones and the 7 wins at Royal ascot and forget about His underwhelming Derby record in both England and Ireland. Michelangelo may have had the Monalisa and the Sistine Chapel but I'm also sure he had a few that he tossed in the scrap heap also.You have to take the good with the not so good.

FIVE2_THREE

The Hurricane wrote: »

Cant believe some of the negative comments here about in my opinion the best jockey of all time. If i had a decent racehorse Frankie would ride him everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Hes not a retained jockey by a big stable anymore hence the lack of quality rides. Hes a controversial character who's had his problems aired out in the media which everyone knows about. Hes one of the main reasons Flat racing is so popular and on the map. I've never seen anyone try so hard on a horse when they are in contention or creative taking a chance going the awkward way to get a gap and know when to go and when to not. When he went through the card in Ascot 3 or 4 of those horses were quality the rest were average his talent and ability as a jockey got them over the line. I don't think anyone else could do it to be honest I agree hes not got a great record in the derby but has he not won nearly every other classic there is in England America France Germany Italy etc ? The best horse he ever rode Lammtarra died the other day won the derby Walter Swinburne had the ride in derby , but he went on to win the King George and the Arch with Frankie on board. Hes ridden so many great horses in the past and of higher breeding quality. I was 19 when I walked into the bookies on a Saturday as a Galway student with 10 pounds. I walked out with just over 5k solely because of Frankie Dettori that's the most I ever won and I don't believe any other jockey will go through the card at a premium meeting like that again. I met him at the curragh racecourse said hello and had a brief chat he was rushing for the weights room and made a few stops getting photos taken with kids and their folks seemed like a genuine guy. I remember him winning after he was nearly killed in a plane crash how emotional he was and how grateful to the person who pulled him out, sometimes comes across a cocky but to do the job he does confidence is key. Best flat jockey in the world all things considered if hes riding a half decent horse.

With all due respect. His Current employer Al Shaqab may not be Godolphin at this point but they are not a bottom barrel operation either. Frankie is ridding quality horses for them.

hucklebuck

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

In fairness Hucklebuck what top horses are you talking about? Richard Hughes hardly set the world alight when he was working for the Prince and now that he's in a very consistent yard booting in the winners (A lot of confidence) he's on a list of decent jockeys (don’t mean to take away from RH, just using him as an example), Your ammunition and the trainers backing you have a major impact on how well you do.

Apart from his pick of Godolphin horses for 16 years, Authorized, Ouija Board, Ravens Pass, Camelot and Treve?

Are you saying he is still riding to the same level he was 10 years ago? If he is surely he would be picking up good spares since Barzelona and Hannigan started riding for Godolphin.

Fallon is getting plenty of rides and he must be 7/8 years older, because he is still riding very well.

hucklebuck

Gregk961 wrote: »

Dettori has definatly given out some poor rides in the last few years though seems to have lost his sparkle

He is on the slide quite a while now imo.

hucklebuck

Ian Whelan wrote: »

Tony McCoy has a similar record in the Grand National but there's no doubting his ability. 7 winners in 1 day at Royal Ascot is simply amazing. Dettori is an excellent jockey and seems like a genuinely nice guy. Willie Carson won 4 English Derbys and most would agree that Dettori is the better rider. Joseph O'Brien has won 2 English Derbys for heaven's sake so it's really not a good way to measure ability.

You cant seriously be comparing a 4m4f race with 30 of the biggest fences around with 40 runners, where a lot of horses dont get the trip, fall, are interfered with

A 1m4f flat race that horses are bred for with probably no more than 15 runners and if the jockey has a good horse in the right place he has a very good chance of winning.

Cant believe you rubbished Joey either, he has done remarkably well for a young guy who is that tall.

nuckeythompson

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

No, I judge Jockeys By Classic wins. because you only get one crack at it. there is a reason why Lester Piggot's 9 Derbies are always mentioned.

thats poppycock. how can you judge the likes of frankie on lack of derby wins when he not been given the horses. As Piggot said 90% horse 10% jockey.

hucklebuck

The Hurricane wrote: »

Cant believe some of the negative comments here about in my opinion the best jockey of all time. If i had a decent racehorse Frankie would ride him everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Hes not a retained jockey by a big stable anymore hence the lack of quality rides. Hes a controversial character who's had his problems aired out in the media which everyone knows about. Hes one of the main reasons Flat racing is so popular and on the map. I've never seen anyone try so hard on a horse when they are in contention or creative taking a chance going the awkward way to get a gap and know when to go and when to not. When he went through the card in Ascot 3 or 4 of those horses were quality the rest were average his talent and ability as a jockey got them over the line. I don't think anyone else could do it to be honest I agree hes not got a great record in the derby but has he not won nearly every other classic there is in England America France Germany Italy etc ? The best horse he ever rode Lammtarra died the other day won the derby Walter Swinburne had the ride in derby , but he went on to win the King George and the Arch with Frankie on board. Hes ridden so many great horses in the past and of higher breeding quality. I was 19 when I walked into the bookies on a Saturday as a Galway student with 10 pounds. I walked out with just over 5k solely because of Frankie Dettori that's the most I ever won and I don't believe any other jockey will go through the card at a premium meeting like that again. I met him at the curragh racecourse said hello and had a brief chat he was rushing for the weights room and made a few stops getting photos taken with kids and their folks seemed like a genuine guy. I remember him winning after he was nearly killed in a plane crash how emotional he was and how grateful to the person who pulled him out, sometimes comes across a cocky but to do the job he does confidence is key. Best flat jockey in the world all things considered if hes riding a half decent horse.

Not a chance he is the best jockey ever, he had a chance to be but he has been on a slippery slope for quite a while now.

Mc Coy can carry a crap horse to victory, Frankie has been struggling for quite a while to win on decent horses.

People go on about him losing the Godolphin job like it happened 10 years ago but its only 2 years, he had them for 18 years and rode all over the world picking up some very good rides from other trainers in the process.

Plenty of jockies have problems that get aired yet can still win and get good rides and be performing as well as ever in their 40s

I thinking you are letting the 5k and the fact you have met him cloud your judgement.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Peintre Celebre

Hurricane you're letting that money you won from him blur your vision. To try and make a case for him being better than Kinane or Murtagh is futile, and that's just naming two

andyman

While I'm enjoying this debate, let's try calm down a little. A couple of posts have been deleted already and there's a couple more that are borderline.

By all means continue this debate, but let's not try get off track by petty little pot shots.

There's no doubt in my mind that Frankie was always well regarded as a jockey, however I just didn't see the same appeal. I would agree that if I had a choice between all the jockeys out there to ride my horse in any Group 1 that I'd pick someone like Ryan Moore ahead of him. If we're going back in time I'd pick Kinane or Murtagh as well.

FIVE2_THREE

nuckeythompson wrote: »

thats poppycock. how can you judge the likes of frankie on lack of derby wins when he not been given the horses. As Piggot said 90% horse 10% jockey.

He was given top shelf stock from Godolphin for 20 years. Coolmore takes a beating on here for their success but EVERY HORSE they have ever been successful with was purchased at auction. meaning any and everybody had a chance to buy him or her. Godolphin's finances tower those of Coolmores and in some cases they even bred their horses. so why does Godolphin and everybody associated with them get a pass for failing ? and Coolmore gets a beating for succeeding ? this is a result orientated business is it not ?

nuckeythompson

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

He was given top shelf stock from Godolphin for 20 years. Coolmore takes a beating on here for their success but EVERY HORSE they have ever been successful with was purchased at auction. meaning any and everybody had a chance to buy him or her. Godolphin's finances tower those of Coolmores and in some cases they even bred their horses. so why does Godolphin and everybody associated with them get a pass for failing ? and Coolmore gets a beating for succeeding ? this is a result orientated business is it not ?

The discussion is not about coolmore or godolphin or breeding, its about Dettori. Dettori was not given many great chances to win a derby due to the hand he was dealt. When he did win Godolphin let him take the ride on Authorized as they could not give him a derby winning horse.
take a look at his acheivements here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Dettori#Major_wins

FIVE2_THREE

nuckeythompson wrote: »

The discussion is not about coolmore or godolphin or breeding, its about Dettori. Dettori was not given many great chances to win a derby due to the hand he was dealt. When he did win Godolphin let him take the ride on Authorized as they could not give him a derby winning horse.
take a look at his acheivements here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Dettori#Major_wins

I'm well aware of what the topic is about I DID START IT. so you are you saying all of those horses Frankie rode for Godolphin in ether the Epsom or Irish Derbies never had a chance of winning ? being a bit of a revisionist are you not ?

nuckeythompson

Im not going back on anything. He didnt have horses as good as the the ones who won the derbys. He also has an Irish Derby to his name from 94. He has a stunning record most jockeys can only dream of. I think its fair to say Godolphin has a poor record in the derby

FIVE2_THREE

nuckeythompson wrote: »

Im not going back on anything. He didnt have horses as good as the the ones who won the derbys. He also has an Irish Derby to his name from 94. He has a stunning record most jockeys can only dream of. I think its fair to say Godolphin has a poor record in the derby

Define what you mean by "He didn't have horses good enough" He was on some of the finest stock in the world for 20 years. I've compiled a list of all of his Epsom Derby mounts. Hindsight is 20/20. it's easy to look back after the race and say a certain horse wasn't good enough but as the head rider for Godolphin he chose the best horse in his opinion.

Mounts Wins 2nds 3rds
19 1 1 4

2014-NO MOUNT
2013-NO MOUNT
2012- NO MOUNT
2011-11th On Ocean War
2010-3rd On Rewilding
2009-9th On Kite Wood
2008-7th On Rio de la Plata
2007-Won on Authorized
2006-9th on Linda's Lad**
2005-3rd On Dubawi
2004-7th on Snow Ridge (Rule of Law 2nd)
2003-8th on Graikos
2002-7th on Naheef (Moon Ballad 3rd)
2001-3rd on Tobougg
2000-NO MOUNT
1999-9th on Dubai Millenieum
1998-9th on Cape Verdi(City Honors 2nd)
1997-9th On Bold Demand
1996-3rd on Shantou
1995-2nd Tamure
1994-10th on Linney Head
1993-8th On Wolf Prince**
1992-16th on Pollen Count

All horses were Godolphin owned unless indicated

paddyisreal

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Hurricane you're letting that money you won from him blur your vision. To try and make a case for him being better than Kinane or Murtagh is futile, and that's just naming two

great jockeys but dettori in a different league. How many group ones has moore murtagh or kinane rode. I bet it aint anywhere near 200. Also he isn't finished , he might end up with another thirty yet. I would judge ryan moore when his career is over.

paddyisreal

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Define what you mean by "He didn't have horses good enough" He was on some of the finest stock in the world for 20 years. I've compiled a list of all of his Epsom Derby mounts. Hindsight is 20/20. it's easy to look back after the race and say a certain horse wasn't good enough but as the head rider for Godolphin he chose the best horse in his opinion.

Mounts Wins 2nds 3rds
19 1 1 4

2014-NO MOUNT
2013-NO MOUNT
2012- NO MOUNT
2011-11th On Ocean War
2010-3rd On Rewilding
2009-9th On Kite Wood
2008-7th On Rio de la Plata
2007-Won on Authorized
2006-9th on Linda's Lad**
2005-3rd On Dubawi
2004-7th on Snow Ridge (Rule of Law 2nd)
2003-8th on Graikos
2002-7th on Naheef (Moon Ballad 3rd)
2001-3rd on Tobougg
2000-NO MOUNT
1999-9th on Dubai Millenieum
1998-9th on Cape Verdi(City Honors 2nd)
1997-9th On Bold Demand
1996-3rd on Shantou
1995-2nd Tamure
1994-10th on Linney Head
1993-8th On Wolf Prince**
1992-16th on Pollen Count

All horses were Godolphin owned unless indicated

as before. The derby is not the be all and end all. He has won every top race in the world in different continents numerous times. Top class and highlighting the english and irish derby is just being pedantic

FIVE2_THREE

paddyisreal wrote: »

as before. The derby is not the be all and end all. He has won every top race in the world in different continents numerous times. Top class and highlighting the english and irish derby is just being pedantic

LESTER WOULD DISAGREE

Peintre Celebre

paddyisreal wrote: »

great jockeys but dettori in a different league. How many group ones has moore murtagh or kinane rode. I bet it aint anywhere near 200. Also he isn't finished , he might end up with another thirty yet. I would judge ryan moore when his career is over.

Ah come on. Do you watch racing or just read stats. Mick Kinane is so superior to Dettori it's incomparable


And I'm not sure of how many they've won definitely not 200 but neither of them had the backing of Godolphin for the guts of 20 years. Dettori will ride about 3 more gr.1's I'd imagine that number of 30 couldn't be more wrong. Also basing it on number of gr.1s won isn't necessarily the right indicator. It's like saying Darren Fletcher is better than Steven Gerrard because he's won premier league medals

paddyisreal

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Ah come on. Do you watch racing or just read stats. Mick Kinane is so superior to Dettori it's incomparable


And I'm not sure of how many they've won definitely not 200 but neither of them had the backing of Godolphin for the guts of 20 years. Dettori will ride about 3 more gr.1's I'd imagine that number of 30 couldn't be more wrong. Also basing it on number of gr.1s won isn't necessarily the right indicator. It's like saying Darren Fletcher is better than Steven Gerrard because he's won premier league medals

What is the right indicator then ? He has rode over 500 group race winners and is the best jockey in the last twenty years. That is based on facts and not just an opinion. He also has rode some of the best races I have seen . I would put kinane a clise second.