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***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

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    #2972
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    From what I read here very few will vote for any party which had any act or part in introducing these measures.

    I'm not seeing that in this thread anyway.


  • Options
    #2973
    Fr. Ned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭Fr. Ned


    Cloak and dagger....

    http://www.herald.ie/news/irish-water-refusing-to-reveal-its-signup-rates-30630712.html

    Open and transparent eh Enda????


  • Options
    #2974
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    We can't vote to abolish it. And unless the economy improves dramatically no government party at the time will abolish it.

    It was part of the agreement FF made as acceptance for the bailout.

    No, thankfully its not a matter for a vote as its a commercial body rather than a statutory one.

    Simply denying them revenue will lead to them becoming insolvent. Long before the election.


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    #2975
    papu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭papu


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    No, thankfully its not a matter for a vote as its a commercial body rather than a statutory one.

    Simply denying them revenue will lead to them becoming insolvent. Long before the election.

    ehhm... no

    http://www.water.ie/news/proposed-capital-investme/
    This brings funding up from current levels of €310m in 2014 to €410m in 2015 and 2016.

    The Plan involves a rolling programme so should there be a funding shortfall it can roll over into 2017 but every effort will be made to reduce the gap by avoiding/reducing cost through its asset management approach and by seeking to raise additional funding.


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    #2976
    hiFidelity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭hiFidelity


    Fr. Ned wrote: »
    Paddy Power wouldn't even give you odds on that...........

    please Google 'Irish Water prices among the highest in Europe'

    There already is an Irish Times article with this very title.

    Sorry I can't post links, too few posts on my account


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    #2977
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Ah grand so, they wont miss the money I and others arent giving to them.

    We all know a massive undershoot in customer revenue targets will dis-establish them quicker than they arrived. The legal system cannot cope with hundreds of thousands of cases, maybe over a million, and their agents dont have the resources to pursue them.


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    #2978
    papu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭papu


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Ah grand so, they wont miss the money I and others arent giving to them.

    We all know a massive undershoot in customer revenue targets will dis-establish them quicker than they arrived. The legal system cannot cope with hundreds of thousands of cases, maybe over a million, and their agents dont have the resources to pursue them.

    It will just lead bleeding more money from the tax payer.. good stuff


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    #2979
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Ah grand so, they wont miss the money I and others arent giving to them.

    We all know a massive undershoot in customer revenue targets will dis-establish them quicker than they arrived. The legal system cannot cope with hundreds of thousands of cases, maybe over a million, and their agents dont have the resources to pursue them.

    Fine, shut it down and reduce expenditure in welfare, education, health and increase taxes to make up our shortfall.


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    #2980
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    papu wrote: »
    It will just lead bleeding more money from the tax payer.. good stuff

    Dont see why, the designation of Irish Water doesnt allow for exchequer money on tap and the county councils are still doing precisely the same with water projects and repairs as they were before IW existed. In practical terms they could disappear again with scarcely a hiccup.


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    #2981
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    hiFidelity wrote: »
    please Google 'Irish Water prices among the highest in Europe'

    There already is an Irish Times article with this very title.

    Sorry I can't post links, too few posts on my account
    Actually there's very little information in those articles.

    On 31st July, the SV de P released a press statement claiming that the charges would be among the highest in Europe, even though the actual figures hadn't been released yet. In other words, they were guessing.

    They also provided very few comparative figures. If we're in the top 50%, then they're "among the highest in Europe".

    Does anyone have any actual comparative figures?


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    #2982
    papu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭papu


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Dont see why, the designation of Irish Water doesnt allow for exchequer money on tap and the county councils are still doing precisely the same with water projects and repairs as they were before IW existed. In practical terms they could disappear again with scarcely a hiccup.

    Did you miss the part where
    The Plan involves a rolling programme so should there be a funding shortfall it can roll over into 2017 but every effort will be made to reduce the gap by avoiding/reducing cost through its asset management approach and by seeking to raise additional funding.

    As for the part in Bold , this is just plain false.
    We had a leak , called the Council , they put us onto the the 1 contractor employed by IW in the whole county , took 3 weeks to fix our leak. There was a small stream through the front garden. The council are no longer on the job.


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    #2983
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Fine, shut it down and reduce expenditure in welfare, education, health and increase taxes to make up our shortfall.

    Nope.

    Irish water setup cost €180 million, so far.

    Max revenue in year one, €550 million or thereabouts.

    Exchequer revenues to end of Q3 2014, €700 million > target.

    I say again, in terms of the exchequer, the bailout, growth, recovery etc, Irish Water could (and should) disappear next year with practically no consequences except the savings on the elimination of a unnecessary quango.


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    #2984
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,023 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Ah grand so, they wont miss the money I and others arent giving to them.

    We all know a massive undershoot in customer revenue targets will dis-establish them quicker than they arrived. The legal system cannot cope with hundreds of thousands of cases, maybe over a million, and their agents dont have the resources to pursue them.

    If there are a million they will have to start with the first few thousand. Would you take the chance? It could be you. Other countries have managed OK, but there are always non-payers who have to be pursued. They could use this template.

    http://www.stwater.co.uk/households/about-your-account-and-bill/trouble-paying-your-bill/what-happens-if-i-dont-pay/what-happens-if-you-cant-pay

    If you fail to pay your bill or maintain any payment plan, we will take the following steps:

    We will attempt to contact you by telephone or letter, giving at least 7 more days to make payment.

    Failure to contact us to arrange to pay your bill during these 7 days, could result in us issuing a County Court Claim against you. Any Court costs incurred will be added to the outstanding balance on your account.

    If needed we will request the court to enter judgment against you. County Court Judgments can impact on your ability to gain credit (eg mortgages, loans) in the future. Once judgment has been entered we can make applications through the court to recover your debt. If you are employed, this may involve your employer being asked to make deductions from your wages. For homeowners, we can ask for a charge to be registered against your property which would need to be paid before you could remortgage or sell it.

    We may decide to send your account to a Debt Collection Agency. The agency will then collect any outstanding balance on our behalf.


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    #2985
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,433 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    VinLieger wrote: »
    The main reason that sways me back however is that i can't get away from the fact that this is a service that we will now be paying for twice.

    So I have a question to put to the thread.

    Hypothetically IF in the upcoming budget there were tax cuts that effectively amounted to how much water would have cost us previously when it was paid for by the councils through the main tax pot, would people consider that this is now a fair charge since this was how we previously paid for our water?

    Bear in mind this is not a question on whether you like IW or about the PPS number data protection issue. It's simply a question on how what would you think if the tax burden is reduced so it is not something we are effectively paying for twice anymore?

    For people who keep saying "we are paying twice".

    The total cost to provide water + wastewater = 1.2bn, we have over 1,000 treatment plants, I think.


    2013 Govt revenues = 58,866m

    2013 Govt expenditures = 70,371m

    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpubl.../#.VC09GvldWSo

    2013 GG deficit = 11,778m


    So we use taxes + borrowings to cover the 1.2bn cost.

    From 2015 onwards we will use tax + less borrowings + new charges to cover the cost.

    You won't be paying twice.

    We will be paying more in taxes + charges.

    We will be borrowing less.


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    #2986
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Nope.

    Irish water setup cost €180 million, so far.

    Max revenue in year one, €550 million or thereabouts.

    Exchequer revenues to end of Q3 2014, €700 million > target.

    I say again, in terms of the exchequer, the bailout, growth, recovery etc, Irish Water could (and should) disappear next year with practically no consequences except the savings on the elimination of a unnecessary quango.

    You missed the bit about our outgoings.


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    #2987
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    You missed the bit about our outgoings.

    Irish Water isnt vital to any of that. The quantum of rebalancing that the troika partners have conceded by allowing the refinancing of high cost bailout loans with low cost market bonds way exceeds the maximum effect of irish water to the exchequer. IW is frankly irrelevant in the grand scheme, not sure why any party would hang themselves at the next election because of them.


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    #2988
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    If there are a million they will have to start with the first few thousand. Would you take the chance? It could be you.

    Ive already taken the chance. The signup pack is gone in the shredder. I know how to disable and bypass the meter and the stopcock is no hassle.


  • Options
    #2989
    papu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭papu


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Irish Water isnt vital to any of that. The quantum of rebalancing that the troika partners have conceded by allowing the refinancing of high cost bailout loans with low cost market bonds way exceeds the maximum effect of irish water to the exchequer. IW is frankly irrelevant in the grand scheme, not sure why any party would hang themselves at the next election because of them.

    Water meters are part of the ECB/EU/IMF agreement and the Water Framework Directive. Pay IW , Pay the Council who cares , you're going to have to pay , but sure , burn a billion euro of tax payers money for some kind of social justice , the country's only 200Billy in the hole..


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    #2990
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Ive already taken the chance. The signup pack is gone in the shredder. I know how to disable and bypass the meter and the stopcock is no hassle.

    None of that matters.


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    #2991
    hju6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭hju6


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    If there are a million they will have to start with the first few thousand. Would you take the chance? It could be you
    [/I]

    I win the the Lottery twice a week , so it' will be me :rolleyes:


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    #2992
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    papu wrote: »
    Water meters are part of the ECB/EU/IMF agreement and the Water Framework Directive. Pay IW , Pay the Council who cares , you're going to have to pay , but sure , burn a billion euro of tax payers money for some kind of social justice , the country's only 200Billy in the hole..

    Well then it hardly matters either way does it? A restoration of social justice is not mutually exclusive with getting out of hock. People do not accept the way its being done, IW is a focus of that fury, so our representatives must go to europe and represent that view. If this Govt wont, then eventually some Govt will, perhaps not the sort of Govt the EU will be fond of, but that will be their own doing.

    The recovery is happening not because of EU, but in spite of it, if we have to do more on our own then that can only be a good thing based on how we've been treated so far.


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    #2993
    hju6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭hju6


    Geuze wrote: »
    For people who keep saying "we are paying twice".

    The total cost to provide water + wastewater = 1.2bn, we have over 1,000 treatment plants, I think.


    2013 Govt revenues = 58,866m

    2013 Govt expenditures = 70,371m

    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpubl.../#.VC09GvldWSo

    2013 GG deficit = 11,778m


    So we use taxes + borrowings to cover the 1.2bn cost.

    From 2015 onwards we will use tax + less borrowings + new charges to cover the cost.

    You won't be paying twice.

    We will be paying more in taxes + charges.

    We will be borrowing less.

    We will be paying twice, and paying interest on other peoples debt too


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    #2994
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    None of that matters.

    Not to you, but it makes me feel less of a mug in my own country, having already been extorted for almost €50,000 per annum in income taxes, levies and stealth charges. Im done contributing.


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    #2995
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    It was an empty action.


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    #2996
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,023 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Well then it hardly matters either way does it? A restoration of social justice is not mutually exclusive with getting out of hock. People do not accept the way its being done, IW is a focus of that fury, so our representatives must go to europe and represent that view. If this Govt wont, then eventually some Govt will, perhaps not the sort of Govt the EU will be fond of, but that will be their own doing.

    The recovery is happening not because of EU, but in spite of it, if we have to do more on our own then that can only be a good thing based on how we've been treated so far.

    Is it really a move towards social justice to start going back to 1977. Water is just the latest item, before this bin charges were introduced and Motor/Road tax was restored. Would it really be fairer to pay for everything essentially from income tax and VAT and borrowings while wealthy retired individuals with large houses paid no property tax, no bin charges, no water charges and no road tax?


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    #2997
    daza2014
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭daza2014


    Can anyone point me to articles/posts specific to what a tenant's rights are in terms of not paying the water charges? If house owners are sending back the forms unopened to Irish Water and there are a large portion of house owners not willing to pay, where are a tenants rights in doing the same? Genuine query as I will be moving house soon, and I want to find info on how to discuss this with landlords/agencies. As a citizen, surely it is my right to protest the charge if I so wish, I'm just wondering what powers agencies and landlords can enact to enforce payment...I assume they can't hand your PPS Number or details over to Irish Water at least?


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    #2998
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,023 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    daza2014 wrote: »
    Can anyone point me to articles/posts specific to what a tenant's rights are in terms of not paying the water charges? If house owners are sending back the forms unopened to Irish Water and there are a large portion of house owners not willing to pay, where are a tenants rights in doing the same? Genuine query as I will be moving house soon, and I want to find info on how to discuss this with landlords/agencies. As a citizen, surely it is my right to protest the charge if I so wish, I'm just wondering what powers agencies and landlords can enact to enforce payment...I assume they can't hand your PPS Number or details over to Irish Water at least?

    Too complicated for me. Better to contact IW and certainly agree the arrangement with the landlord. Could be similar to ESB.


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    #2999
    papu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭papu


    daza2014 wrote: »
    Can anyone point me to articles/posts specific to what a tenant's rights are in terms of not paying the water charges? If house owners are sending back the forms unopened to Irish Water and there are a large portion of house owners not willing to pay, where are a tenants rights in doing the same? Genuine query as I will be moving house soon, and I want to find info on how to discuss this with landlords/agencies. As a citizen, surely it is my right to protest the charge if I so wish, I'm just wondering what powers agencies and landlords can enact to enforce payment...I assume they can't hand your PPS Number or details over to Irish Water at least?

    Can I protest my Tv license and Bins please?


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    #3000
    hju6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭hju6


    daza2014 wrote: »
    Can anyone point me to articles/posts specific to what a tenant's rights are in terms of not paying the water charges? If house owners are sending back the forms unopened to Irish Water and there are a large portion of house owners not willing to pay, where are a tenants rights in doing the same? Genuine query as I will be moving house soon, and I want to find info on how to discuss this with landlords/agencies. As a citizen, surely it is my right to protest the charge if I so wish, I'm just wondering what powers agencies and landlords can enact to enforce payment...I assume they can't hand your PPS Number or details over to Irish Water at least?

    No they cannot, IW also have no right to your Pps no either.


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    #3001
    hju6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭hju6


    papu wrote: »
    Can I protest my Tv license and Bins please?

    Yes and yes


This discussion has been closed.
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