***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

KERSPLAT!

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

Do you think that poll is representative of the Irish people?

Dont know to be sure, but its certainly representative of the people ive spoken too!

I haven't even received my pack yet to return!

UCDVet

Not sure if this has been covered before - but does anyone know who is liable for the water charges in the case of a broken/leaking pipe/dripping sink/running toilet in the case of a landlord/tenant?

For example - I rent. I don't own the apartment, nor the sink/toilet/facets/pipes in the wall. Let's say I come home from work and realize the toilet that was flushed at 7am never stopped refilling with water, because it is defective in some way. Now, I'd call up the landlord and he'd be obliged to fix it. Based on past experiences this would probably take 2-3 weeks.

Under this new Irish Water scheme - who is liable for the water wasted?

SaveOurLyric

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

yet.

No yet about it, private utility. Cant be done.

Recondite49

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's getting a little tired. People who disagree with you and support a system based on paying for what you use instead of paying for an overgenerous welfare system do not automatically support FG. I'm pretty sure an admin has already stated that if anyone has a shred of evidence to support a claim that there are government shills here then they will take it very seriously and investigate it. So far you haven't posted anything to back up your claims.

There's been plenty of answers that were not evasive, put downs, scaremongering or shaming but in true far left fashion you have ignored that which does not suit you. The legal nonsense that has been spouted by the anti-IW side has been completely disassembled on the Legal Discussion forum with posters from there also posting here. The violent and thuggish behaviour by the "protesters" has been condemned by only a few anti-water charge posters with most saying the Gardaí are responsable merely by their presence.

If you want to debate the issues then do so but give up the tired nonsense of trying to imply everyone who disagrees with you is a blue shirt or government shill. It's lazy and ineffective.

I would appreciate it then if you could put forward a cohesive argument as to why you think it's fair and proportionate to expect everyone to pay a flat charge for water.

If you could do it without implying that those people who refuse to pay are quasi-Marxists or innately dishonest that would be much appreciated.

The reason there's probably been so much impatience is that people aren't reading the threads and the "pro" crowd's arguments have been denbunked pretty much in the first five minutes, namely:

- Ireland agreed to introduce charges for water as part of the conditions for the bailout (largely irrelevant, most posters are disputing how the charges are to be levied i.e they should come from income tax rather than a flat charge to everyone.)

- Too many people are on welfare (irrelevant to the point at hand except insofar as people on benefits would be most severely affected by a flat charge.

- People who say you should attack the workers installing your meter are thugs. (I agree no one should attack anyone, just return the form unopened and refuse to pay).

- Not everyone who disagrees with you is a government stoolpigeon. (Yes indeed, I disagree with those who are for the charge and couldn't care less why they're posting, the case can be argued on its own merits).

- Water can't be free, you have to pay for it somehow. (Again, failing to address the point these funds should come from income tax.

- Those who are against the charge don't have any ideas where the money should come from (err... income tax again?)

Ball's in your court chief.

Phoebas

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I do remember those people, problem was the government allowed revenue to go into peoples wages, welfare to collect those charges regardless of someones view.

Cant do that with water charges!

Or with gas or electric, but the compliance rate for those utilities is quite high. I expect it'll ultimately be similar with IW.

The PPSN/allowance issue will help IW because people with meters won't want to risk having to pay double the amount by failing to register for the allowances.

UCDVet

Phoebas wrote: »

Or with gas or electric, but the compliance rate for those utilities is quite high. I expect it'll ultimately be similar with IW.

The PPSN/allowance issue will help IW because people with meters won't want to risk having to pay double the amount by failing to register for the allowances.

Honest question - I've heard that Irish Water will *not* be able to disconnect water service if someone fails to pay. Is that also the case with gas/electric in Ireland?

Phoebas

Phoebas wrote: »

Or with gas or electric, but the compliance rate for those utilities is quite high. I expect it'll ultimately be similar with IW.

The PPSN/allowance issue will help IW because people with meters won't want to risk having to pay double the amount by failing to register for the allowances.

You can live without Gas or Electricity, cant live without water.

People know they were already paying for Water, people know this isn't about paying for better services its paying for bondholder debts.

The compliance rate for household tax/property tax was low, that's why revenue got the powers they did.

I don't expect the compliance rate to be high at all for water charges.

Essien

Phoebas wrote: »

How many forms have been returned unopened?

A couple of weeks ago I read that it was 600,000, and that was posted on Facebook by an unnamed "insider" so there's no way anybody just made it up.

Phoebas

UCDVet wrote: »

Honest question - I've heard that Irish Water will *not* be able to disconnect water service if someone fails to pay. Is that also the case with gas/electric in Ireland?

I'm not sure what the rules are for gas and electric. I think they can cut you off but I'd say its a very rare occurrence.

IW can reduce the pressure but can't fully cut you off - but the water that trickles through your pipes is still water you have to pay for.

Little CuChulainn

Recondite49 wrote: »

I would appreciate it then if you could put forward a cohesive argument as to why you think it's fair and proportionate to expect everyone to pay a flat charge for water.

If you could do it without implying that those people who refuse to pay are quasi-Marxists or innately dishonest that would be much appreciated.

The reason there's probably been so much impatience is that people aren't reading the threads and the "pro" crowd's arguments have been denbunked pretty much in the first five minutes, namely:

- Ireland agreed to introduce charges for water as part of the conditions for the bailout (largely irrelevant, most posters are disputing how the charges are to be levied i.e they should come from income tax rather than a flat charge to everyone.)

- Too many people are on welfare (irrelevant to the point at hand except insofar as people on benefits would be most severely affected by a flat charge.

- People who say you should attack the workers installing your meter are thugs. (I agree no one should attack anyone, just return the form unopened and refuse to pay).

- Not everyone who disagrees with you is a government stoolpigeon. (Yes indeed, I disagree with those who are for the charge and couldn't care less why they're posting, the case can be argued on its own merits).

- Water can't be free, you have to pay for it somehow. (Again, failing to address the point these funds should come from income tax.

- Those who are against the charge don't have any ideas where the money should come from (err... income tax again?)

Ball's in your court chief.

I think it's ironic you point out that the "pro" side aren't reading the posts because my answer is in the post you quoted. Moving to a more consumption based system of taxation and charges will be more popular than a simple levy on income. Many people are tired of their income going to support an overburdened and exploited welfare system and inefficient government.

You might think it's fair to tax my income and use it to pay for the water of someone who has never worked a day in their life. I do not. Call it selfish if you want. I'd rather pay for my own and let them do the same. In return I will expect a reduction in the taxation on my income to take account of the fact that tax income is no longer funding water services. And on that point, I think the management of the water system by a national company instead of locally by councils will be much more efficient and cost effective. And while IW have a responsibility to remain self funding and profitable, they are not set up with profit as their goal and this is what differentiates them from a private company in my own view.

Phoebas

Phoebas wrote: »

I'm not sure what the rules are for gas and electric. I think they can cut you off but I'd say its a very rare occurrence.

IW can reduce the pressure but can't fully cut you off - but the water that trickles through your pipes is still water you have to pay for.

The Commission for Energy Regulation has just published a document which shows that there were 5,895 gas disconnections and 10,122 electricity disconnections.

Domestic disconnections have declined in both gas and in electricity in 2013
compared to 2012, by 15.86 per cent and 30.86 per cent, respectively.

http://www.thejournal.ie/domestic-gas-energy-disconnections-1477037-May2014/

Phoebas

Essien wrote: »

A couple of weeks ago I read that it was 600,000, and that was posted on Facebook by an unnamed "insider" so there's no way anybody just made it up.

In a few days time, someone posting in the Journal will be saying that they heard from someone on Boards that the number is 600,000.

It'll become almost like the truth.

Phoebas

Deleted User wrote: »

The Commission for Energy Regulation has just published a document which shows that there were 5,895 gas disconnections and 10,122 electricity disconnections.

Domestic disconnections have declined in both gas and in electricity in 2013
compared to 2012, by 15.86 per cent and 30.86 per cent, respectively.

http://www.thejournal.ie/domestic-gas-energy-disconnections-1477037-May2014/

Yeah - they're pretty small numbers. I expect the water restrictions to be higher, but they'll probably leave it a year or so before they restrict anyone.

Phoebas

Phoebas wrote: »

In a few days time, someone posting in the Journal will be saying that they heard from someone on Boards that the number is 600,000.

It'll become almost like the truth.

Online polls,
Pictures,
Videos of protests.

Id say there is a growing number of people unwilling or unable to pay these charges.

This picture really tells the story.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=30m5ov8&s=8

Phoebas

Deleted User wrote: »

You can live without Gas or Electricity, cant live without water.

All the more reason to ensure a good supply.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Online polls,
Pictures,
Videos of protests.

Id say there is a growing number of people unwilling or unable to pay these charges.

This picture really tells the story.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=30m5ov8&s=8

Once upon a time ..........

Phoebas

Deleted User wrote: »

This picture really tells the story.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=30m5ov8&s=8

If it does, it tells the story of maybe a couple of hundred undelivered forms. Which is pretty much a non story.

Phoebas

Phoebas wrote: »

If it does, it tells the story of maybe a couple of hundred undelivered forms. Which is pretty much a non story.

If you want to ignore the online evidence of non compliance, why not go out and conduct your own poll.

Cantona's Collars

Phoebas wrote: »

All the more reason to ensure a good supply.

But any time IW have been asked about providing a good supply they say that it's not their job,if not - who's job is it? They are the ones charging for it.

Phoebas

Deleted User wrote: »

If you want to ignore the online evidence of non compliance, why not go ut and conduct your own poll.

Ok. I'll head out now, conduct a poll and report back to you later.

Phoebas

zerks wrote: »

But any time IW have been asked about providing a good supply they say that it's not their job,if not - who's job is it? They are the ones charging for it.

That seems like an odd thing to say.
IW said that it wasn't their job to supply water?

(are you just playing with words here?)

Essien

Deleted User wrote: »

If you want to ignore the online evidence of non compliance, why not go ut and conduct your own poll.

I wouldn't argue that there's non compliance, that's pretty evident. The problem is that it's merely a vocal minority, lets see what the majority says in the next general election. Edit: NTM the actual number of fully completed IW forms before the end of the month.

It'll be interesting to see over half the population of Ireland marching in Dublin next weekend.

Banjo String

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

yet.

Best not to hand over your PPS Number. Just in case

Recondite49

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I think it's ironic you point out that the "pro" side aren't reading the posts because my answer is in the post you quoted. Moving to a more consumption based system of taxation and charges will be more popular than a simple levy on income. Many people are tired of their income going to support an overburdened and exploited welfare system and inefficient government.

You might think it's fair to tax my income and use it to pay for the water of someone who has never worked a day in their life. I do not. Call it selfish if you want. I'd rather pay for my own and let them do the same. In return I will expect a reduction in the taxation on my income to take account of the fact that tax income is no longer funding water services. And on that point, I think the management of the water system by a national company instead of locally by councils will be much more efficient and cost effective. And while IW have a responsibility to remain self funding and profitable, they are not set up with profit as their goal and this is what differentiates them from a private company in my own view.

..And you really think your tax will go down proportionately once these charges are introduced? By your own reasoning you'll be paying for the same thing twice.

I saw what you said and addressed it in my last post to you however this point has come up several times. These charges are in addition to, and not instead of your income tax - allow us to claim the off tax then maybe we can talk again.

UCDVet

Banjo String wrote: »

Best not to hand over your PPS Number. Just in case

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to welfare.ie - we shouldn't give IW our PPS.

Q8. Who can ask me for my PPS Number?

A8. You can only be asked for your PPS Number by one of the agencies listed in the Register of Users or by an authorised agent of one of these bodies.

Here is the register (http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Personal-Public-Service-Number-Register-of-Users.aspx). Irish Water is not on the list.

Phoebas

UCDVet wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to welfare.ie - we shouldn't give IW our PPS.



Here is the register (http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Personal-Public-Service-Number-Register-of-Users.aspx). Irish Water is not on the list.

It is on the list. Under 'Others'.

Daith

Phoebas wrote: »

It is on the list. Under 'Others'.

221 pages in and still being asked.....

Cantona's Collars

Spotted the ad for IW on tv,the line in it "we MAY need your pps number" is interesting,they "may need" it.Does this imply that it's actually not essential on the form.

Anyhow,within days of meters being fitted in my area,we had a rep call door to door asking how many adults & kids lived at the addresses.

UCDVet

Phoebas wrote: »

It is on the list. Under 'Others'.

Bloody hell - I did a ctrl+f on 'Water' and found no matches. Didn't realize it wasn't one document. The first ~18 categories listed *are* all in the one page - but the last 5 aren't.

Thank you for setting me straight.

Idbatterim

All this "blue shirt" guff you can be sure ttat they are the party with people who are most likely to be paying the actual scandalous tax here I.e the marginal rate. I work with about 40 other nationalities, I have traveled a lot and when you come back here, you think all of those shouting loudest here about the unfair system, should get out of Ireland for a few days, get some perspective. The way this country functions is simply off the wall and I'm done with compassion...