***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

FREETV

According to people in the know and those at the very top of Secret Societies, this Country or indeed this World is not even run by humans!
Weird, I know but I am just quoting what I have heard.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit.


The puppets in the Dail couldn't give a s**t about the middle income or the lower income families and individuals.
It is a cushy number for them with easy money, power with the opportunity of an extra corrupt sly income potential and huge pensions for life.
Politics and Politicians in general are entirely focused on their own needs.
They all have their own agendas at heart.
They sell out to the highest bidders and tell you that the decisions that they make for you on your own behalf are for your own good and welfare.
The so called treated water isn't fit for human consumption.
It destroys healthy cells in your body.

They are as we all know in league with the evil Elite who look down their noses at us all and laugh all the way to the bank.


If you pay for water a second time then you are backward and your own worst enemy.
They will not improve the water quality/piping and will just rob you blind!
More taxes will be brought in if you bend over again and let your wallet and bank accounts be pillaged!
They will then privatise Irish Water and increase the water charges!
They are robbing you to look after their private Elite interests and receiving backhanders as a result.
Vote completely for Independent candidates next time around and nobody else or you will fall once again for the same lies!!!
Those in power are only in it for themselves.

Stand up for your rights as a species, march and protest on Saturday, organise lifts, mini bus hire, car pools etc and stand up and be counted.
Refuse to pay and do not give in to the liars in suits!
They are greedy back stabbing, two faced, lying B******s and never gave you a choice about whether or not you wanted Irish Water to be setup and be siphoned financially for a basic human need and right but instead enforce their will on you.

If you sit back and give in to them your quality of life will dwindle further as water charges are another means of making the rich wealthier, the poor poorer and divide society even more!
Go with your gut instincts and think a little bit about your futures and whether you want these water charges to be enforced against your will forever.
You owe it to yourselves as Citizens to put your foot down, say no and demand your wishes to be heard and be given a voice.
Elite Hegemony is what it is all about!
https://www.facebook.com/ProtestsMeetingsMarchesIreland

Take away their power, empower yourselves, stop living in the dark ages, waken up, take some time to march and gather at the Garden of Rememberance in Dublin this Saturday and indeed outside Dail Eireann during weekdays!
Stick up for yourselves, your friends and relatives.
Make history!
Europe said "give the Irish cheese" EU Aid.
The water will not run dry here but your Bank Account will be adversely effected and it is the money required for the little things which one needs to survive which will be realised if you do not take direct action.
Make the message clear NO to Water Charges and never vote for Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fail and encourage others to do the same in the next General Election as it will be the same story again with any of these Parties in Power whether it be a Coalition or one Governing Party.

Little CuChulainn

donegaLroad wrote: »

If you went to Topaz and filled up without paying, you could argue that you were within your rights.

Can you explain your reasoning here?

dxhound2005

firemansam4 wrote: »

I have to wonder why they are forcing the installation of water meters on residents who clearly don't want water meters installed. This is bringing the worse publicity on the whole debacle. Surely IW should just leave any residents who don't want a meter installed alone instead of causing so much confrontation.

The next step obviously is for the residents to put up a sign "Postman, no water bill here" (That could be postwoman as well). Since when did residents have the right to pick and choose what laws they will obey? What defines residents, all, some or just a few from an area? And by what process have they clearly decided that they don't meters installed? It is by no means clear to me. What I see on the videos is groups of agitators who could be local residents but just as easily could be from miles away. Do residents who want a meter have any rights?

Just as a sort of an aside. Say water charges, property tax, bin charges and road/motor tax are still in place in 2024. Would it be sensible for a new government to abolish the lot and make up the lost revenue from income tax and VAT. Or more likely by increasing borrowing. That is what won the election for FF in 1977. Was it a good idea then, how has it worked out since? Would it really be a good idea in the future?

Little CuChulainn

There's one other thing that seems strange about the anti IW arguments. On one hand they say you shouldn't have to pay for water and on the other hand they say we already pay it from our tax. It seems a little contradictory.

Eponymous

Article and video on Irish Times website this morning: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/water-charges-concern-at-excessive-garda-force-1.1955232

It continues to interest me how protesters can shout "peaceful protest", while at the same time ignore the instructions of Gardaí and attempt to push back barriers around works which are there to ensure a save working area. Also, is this thing of raising ones arms a spillover from the Ferguson protests. Are the protesters worried about being shot?

Where I live, there have been very few protests, but many posts in local facebook groups about lone protesters in some estate or another needing support. Surely if only one person in a large estate sees fit to protest then it tells you all you need to know about the feelings of his/her neighbours and parachuting in protesters from other areas merely serves to inflate the claims that the residents are against water charges?

Geuze

Banjo String wrote: »

I

Where is the money previously allocated to water now been redirected to, what will that now be paying For?

What will come down in lieu of the water now being paid for directly? Will our vat rate drop, will motor tax be reduced? Income tax?

Govt spending grants to councils for water will fall.

Govt spending will fall, being replaced by water charges.

The fiscal deficit will fall.

Other taxes, i.e. income taxes may be cut, slightly.

Banjo String

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There's one other thing that seems strange about the anti IW arguments. On one hand they say you shouldn't have to pay for water and on the other hand they say we already pay it from our tax. It seems a little contradictory.

Shouldn't have to pay again.

Where is the funds, allocated to water now being diverted to?
When will we see the reduction in motor tax, vat or income tax that previously paid for it?

What's contradictory about that?

Geuze

Banjo String wrote: »

Shouldn't have to pay again.

Where is the funds, allocated to water now being diverted to?
When will we see the reduction in motor tax, vat or income tax that previously paid for it?

What's contradictory about that?

We aren't paying twice.

Govt spending grants to councils for water will fall.

Govt spending will fall, being replaced by water charges.

The fiscal deficit will fall.

Other taxes, i.e. income taxes may be cut, slightly.

Geuze

Banjo String wrote: »

Shouldn't have to pay again.

Where is the funds, allocated to water now being diverted to?
When will we see the reduction in motor tax, vat or income tax that previously paid for it?

For people who keep saying "we are paying twice".

The total cost to provide water + wastewater = 1.2bn, we have over 1,000 treatment plants, I think.


2013 Govt revenues = 58,866m

2013 Govt expenditures = 70,371m

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpubl.../#.VC09GvldWSo

2013 GG deficit = 11,778m


So we use taxes + borrowings to cover the 1.2bn cost.

From 2015 onwards we will use tax + less borrowings + new charges to cover the cost.

You won't be paying twice.

We will be paying more in taxes + charges.

We will be borrowing less.

Banjo String

So why not deduct at source Geuze?

They already got 52% of my income in taxes before they are asking for water charges now.

Little CuChulainn

Banjo String wrote: »

Shouldn't have to pay again.

Where is the funds, allocated to water now being diverted to?
When will we see the reduction in motor tax, vat or income tax that previously paid for it?

What's contradictory about that?

No, not again. People have been saying we shouldn't have to pay for a human right. I imagine these people have a fundamental misunderstanding of economics or do not pay income tax from which funds would be taken. In either case, they are under the same umbrella as the people saying we shouldn't have to pay twice. It comes across as a little contradictory is all.

Hijpo

Don't get baited by weak minded arguments from the pro side. They are simple attempts to get you sucked back into debates, where you might mention something that has a high chance of happening (like privatisation) then they ask for proof or ask you for a loan of your crystal ball etc
Or arguing the rights and limits to protesting where they take a minority and paint all protests with the same brush even though there are about 10 videos out of hundreds of protests that are happening up and down the country.

Don't be baited.

Little CuChulainn

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/water-charges-concern-at-excessive-garda-force-1.1955232

"The Guards are supposed to be looking after us. I know they have a job, but why are they protecting them?"

The tyres on two Irish Water vans were slashed during the morning.

I guess that answers the question.

Hijpo

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/water-charges-concern-at-excessive-garda-force-1.1955232





I guess that answers the question.

Minorities again eh?

A van got damaged, lets immediately point the finger at all the protesters and shove all of them around. Men, women and children.

Little CuChulainn

Hijpo wrote: »

Minorities again eh?

A van got damaged, lets immediately point the finger at all the protesters and shove all of them around. Men, women and children.

If you want.

Geuze

Banjo String wrote: »

So why not deduct at source Geuze?

They already got 52% of my income in taxes before they are asking for water charges now.

By deduct at source, do you mean increase income taxes?

Eponymous

Hijpo wrote: »

Minorities again eh?

A van got damaged, lets immediately point the finger at all the protesters and shove all of them around. Men, women and children.

You can't argue that a protest is lawful and peaceful when there are unlawful and not very peaceful things happening.

Do you believe that calling a worker "Nazi scum" as reported in the Irish Times today is a peaceful act? How do you feel about the intimidation of workers? Is that peaceful?

What I find interesting about the videos of Gardaí pushing people is that they don't ever start at a point where the cause of the Gardaí resorting to physically handling protesters occurs. Or someone showing a bruise or scrape received but not the incident.

If, as you say, the protests shown are in the minority and therefore there must be hundreds of peaceful protests, why aren't there videos of those up on YouTube or wherever. Yes, they might be boring to watch, but at least you'd have evidence to back up your claims.

Geuze

Banjo String wrote: »

They already got 52% of my income in taxes before they are asking for water charges now.

Nobody in Irl pays 52% of their income in income taxes.

52% is the marginal tax rate on income over 32,800 / 41,800.


I pay 52% on the margin, but maybe 25-30% average tax rate.

Banjo String

Geuze wrote: »

By deduct at source, do you mean increase income taxes?

Well, they could I suppose. Or why not leave the USC rate (that was supposedly only temporary anyway) alone for a while, and use a portion of it to pay for it as a flat charge.

That's what they're doing anyway with these capped/assessed charges proposed atm.

Geuze

Banjo String wrote: »

Well, they could I suppose. Or why not leave the USC rate (that was supposedly only temporary anyway) alone for a while, and use a portion of it to pay for it as a flat charge.

That's what they're doing anyway with these capped/assessed charges proposed atm.

The State needs to spend less / collect more revenues, so as to reduce the deficit.

Leaving the USC alone won't really bring in more revenue.

Hijpo

Eponymous wrote: »

You can't argue that a protest is lawful and peaceful when there are unlawful and not very peaceful things happening.

Do you believe that calling a worker "Nazi scum" as reported in the Irish Times today is a peaceful act? How do you feel about the intimidation of workers? Is that peaceful?

What I find interesting about the videos of Gardaí pushing people is that they don't ever start at a point where the cause of the Gardaí resorting to physically handling protesters occurs. Or someone showing a bruise or scrape received but not the incident.

If, as you say, the protests shown are in the minority and therefore there must be hundreds of peaceful protests, why aren't there videos of those up on YouTube or wherever. Yes, they might be boring to watch, but at least you'd have evidence to back up your claims.

Probably taking a leaf out of our government funded national broadcasters book and only showing things of importance in the country like a backbencher getting his car stuck on a barrier but certainly not the extent of opposition to meters and charges.

Banjo String

Geuze wrote: »

Nobody in Irl pays 52% of their income in income taxes.

52% is the marginal tax rate on income over 32,800 / 41,800.


I pay 52% on the margin, but maybe 25-30% average tax rate.

Please reread my post. I didn't say I paid 52% income tax. I said they already get 52% of my income in taxes.

I probably should have put in the word 'various' before taxes.

Hijpo

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

If you want.

Its not what I want, its what the pro brigade expect.

Hijpo

Geuze wrote: »

The State needs to spend less / collect more revenues, so as to reduce the deficit.

Leaving the USC alone won't really bring in more revenue.

What happens when they reduce that tax take from higher earners?

Eponymous

Banjo String wrote: »

Well, they could I suppose. Or why not leave the USC rate (that was supposedly only temporary anyway) alone for a while, and use a portion of it to pay for it as a flat charge.

That's what they're doing anyway with these capped/assessed charges proposed atm.

The problem with just increasing the income tax rates or leaving USC there and using a portion of it, is that then not everybody pays, as not everybody pays income tax and USC.

I would be in favour of increasing income taxes to cover it, IF it was accompanied by a similar reduction in the Job Seeker Allowance or whatever it is they call the Dole nowadays.

_Kaiser_

Eponymous wrote: »

Where I live, there have been very few protests, but many posts in local facebook groups about lone protesters in some estate or another needing support. Surely if only one person in a large estate sees fit to protest then it tells you all you need to know about the feelings of his/her neighbours and parachuting in protesters from other areas merely serves to inflate the claims that the residents are against water charges?

I don't know about that..

Generally speaking, the Irish people are great about bitching over such things in the pub, online or in one-to-one situations but rarely do so in a way that is effective or visible outside this.

I'd say most people are simply resigned to the idea that this government/IW will get the money from them one way or another - as happened with the HHC and PT where Revenue ultimately acted as "the heavies" by deducting at source or witholding tax compliance certs. While Revenue have (yet!) no power to do so in this case, it's not helped by the complete farce that is the communication around this whole thing.

This shouldn't however be taken as people agreeing with it.

ROCKMAN

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I don't know about that..

Generally speaking, the Irish people are great about bitching over such things in the pub, online or in one-to-one situations but rarely do so in a way that is effective or visible outside this.

I'd say most people are simply resigned to the idea that this government/IW will get the money from them one way or another - as happened with the HHC and PT where Revenue ultimately acted as "the heavies" by deducting at source or witholding tax compliance certs. It's not helped by the complete farce that is the communication around this whole thing.

This shouldn't however be taken as people agreeing with it.

totally agree ,

But will be interesting to see what type of numbers attend the protest been organise for this Saturday,
What kind of numbers do people expect to see ?
What type of numbers if any would make the Government sit up and take notice ?
10K ..20K...30K or more ??
With a general election on the horizon could a mass turnout make the government review their stance.

Banjo String

ROCKMAN wrote: »

totally agree ,

But will be interesting to see what type of numbers attend the protest been organise for this Saturday,
What kind of numbers do people expect to see ?
What type of numbers if any would make the Government sit up and take notice ?
10K ..20K...30K or more ??
With a general election on the horizon could a mass turnout make the government review their stance.

Well, if we go by an RTE produced article, via Revenue, as of March this year,

The Revenue Commissioners has said it will pursue hundreds of thousands of individuals who have yet to pay the Household Charge for 2011.

The €100 charge was introduced as an interim measure ahead of the Local Property Tax in 2013.

Revenue records suggest 460,000  householders who have subsequently paid the Local Property Tax have yet to pay the Household Charge.

Chair of the Revenue Commission Josephine Feehily told the Public Accounts Committee the final figure was expected to fall between 400,000 and 500,000 properties.

http://m.rte.ie/news/2014/0220/505536-revenue/

The actual size of the protest will be irrelevant I reckon. To many, it's easier to protest by refusing to engage.

I imagine that the same numbers simply refusing to fill in and send back application packs will pretty much make the whole thing fall.

I see a campaign has gotten underway now calling for people to fill in the forms now.

But with the wrong information, they reckon it will be much more effective tying up Irish Waters resources deciphering spurious from genuine.

I do not condone either btw.

Hijpo

Banjo String wrote: »

Well, if we go by an RTE produced article, via Revenue, as of March this year,


http://m.rte.ie/news/2014/0220/505536-revenue/

The actual size of the protest will be irrelevant I reckon. To many, it's easier to protest by refusing to engage.

I imagine that the same numbers simply refusing to fill in and send back application packs will pretty much make the whole thing fall.

I see a campaign has gotten underway now calling for people to fill in the forms now.

But with the wrong information, they reckon it will be much more effective tying up Irish Waters resources deciphering spurious from genuine.

I do not condone either btw.

Figures from the government funded national broadcaster will always dilute the actual figures anyway. Providing the pro brigade with the stats they need to portray any protest as a failure.

ROCKMAN

Banjo String wrote: »

Well, if we go by an RTE produced article, via Revenue, as of March this year,


http://m.rte.ie/news/2014/0220/505536-revenue/

The actual size of the protest will be irrelevant I reckon. To many, it's easier to protest by refusing to engage.

I imagine that the same numbers simply refusing to fill in and send back application packs will pretty much make the whole thing fall.

I see a campaign has gotten underway now calling for people to fill in the forms now.

But with the wrong information, they reckon it will be much more effective tying up Irish Waters resources deciphering spurious from genuine.

I do not condone either btw.

Think i'll take the credit for this idea...Sad I know but I need my 15 minutes....:D

ROCKMAN wrote: »

There an idea no sure it would work but might be worth exploring...
Fill in the forms using local FG/LABOUR TD'S name and put their office/address down in the section for different billing address.

Ps Also would tie/ slow down Irish Water, Instead of just binning letters mark No Consent...No Contract without having to open them.. They would have to open them all and check the contents .Nightmare if its done on mass.