***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Banjo String

Hijpo wrote: »

Figures from the government funded national broadcaster will always dilute the actual figures anyway. Providing the pro brigade with the stats they need to portray any protest as a failure.

Yeah, I'll not argue with compliance figures for the lpt, but very few people had an option to comply or not.

Pay, or have it deducted by force from Revenue, or have tax clearance certificate withheld etc.

Many people are aware that you simply don't mess with Revenue.

However, Irish Water do not have Revenue to fall back on in this case, if the same amount of people refuse to engage with IW, (and remember, many exempt from the hhc, aren't exempt from water charges, tenants in social housing, tenants in private landlords housing) won't escape this charge.

With that in mind, (and the charges much more than €100) the numbers could be well in excess of 460k.

If that's the case, it will be simply unenforceable.

dxhound2005

Banjo String wrote: »

Yeah, I'll not argue with compliance figures for the lpt, but very few people had an option to comply or not.

Pay, or have it deducted by force from Revenue, or have tax clearance certificate withheld etc.

Many people are aware that you simply don't mess with Revenue.

However, Irish Water do not have Revenue to fall back on in this case, if the same amount of people refuse to engage with IW, (and remember, many exempt from the hhc, aren't exempt from water charges, tenants in social housing, tenants in private landlords housing) won't escape this charge.

With that in mind, (and the charges much more than €100) the numbers could be well in excess of 460k.

If that's the case, it will be simply unenforceable.

There's that little word If again.

Little CuChulainn

Banjo String wrote: »

Yeah, I'll not argue with compliance figures for the lpt, but very few people had an option to comply or not.

Pay, or have it deducted by force from Revenue, or have tax clearance certificate withheld etc.

Many people are aware that you simply don't mess with Revenue.

However, Irish Water do not have Revenue to fall back on in this case, if the same amount of people refuse to engage with IW, (and remember, many exempt from the hhc, aren't exempt from water charges, tenants in social housing, tenants in private landlords housing) won't escape this charge.

With that in mind, (and the charges much more than €100) the numbers could be well in excess of 460k.

If that's the case, it will be simply unenforceable.

Not really. There will be one or two test cases then when that's sorted they will likely go pretty fast. The only questions the judge will need to ask are do you live there and did you pay your bill.

_Kaiser_

Banjo String wrote: »

Yeah, I'll not argue with compliance figures for the lpt, but very few people had an option to comply or not.

Pay, or have it deducted by force from Revenue, or have tax clearance certificate withheld etc.

Many people are aware that you simply don't mess with Revenue.

However, Irish Water do not have Revenue to fall back on in this case, if the same amount of people refuse to engage with IW, (and remember, many exempt from the hhc, aren't exempt from water charges, tenants in social housing, tenants in private landlords housing) won't escape this charge.

With that in mind, (and the charges much more than €100) the numbers could be well in excess of 460k.

If that's the case, it will be simply unenforceable.

Yet... I do wonder why the whole IW setup was quietly moved under the Department of Finance during the cabinet reshuffle. Could be to enable them to allow Revenue to act as enforcers again if needed, or in anticipation of privatisation.

Don't forget that just because the "rules" don't allow Revenue to deduct at source now, it doesn't mean this can't change rapidly if so needed - we've seen on several occasions that Enda's crew are quite willing to pull all-nighters if needed to ram stuff through when they want to.

firemansam4

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The next step obviously is for the residents to put up a sign "Postman, no water bill here" (That could be postwoman as well). Since when did residents have the right to pick and choose what laws they will obey? What defines residents, all, some or just a few from an area? And by what process have they clearly decided that they don't meters installed? It is by no means clear to me. What I see on the videos is groups of agitators who could be local residents but just as easily could be from miles away. Do residents who want a meter have any rights?

Just as a sort of an aside. Say water charges, property tax, bin charges and road/motor tax are still in place in 2024. Would it be sensible for a new government to abolish the lot and make up the lost revenue from income tax and VAT. Or more likely by increasing borrowing. That is what won the election for FF in 1977. Was it a good idea then, how has it worked out since? Would it really be a good idea in the future?

Look i dont condone some of the protesting going on and im not totally against the idea of some sort of water tax. But i just think the whole way they have gone about it is all wrong. what is wrong with just not installing meters in peoples houses that dont want them installed? They will still be billed a flat charge at the end of the day. It will take away a lot of the confrontation IW are getting because of this at the moment.

Like i said in previous posts I think the whole way this has been done is a waste of money and a far simpler flat tax should have been brought in something like the LPT.

On your second point about a new government getting in and cutting everything putting the country back into deficit - im in total agrement with you on that point.

donegaLroad

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Can you explain your reasoning here?

Topaz was purchased with an Anglo loan from which there was a percentage write-down after Anglo was nationalised.. any haircut on an Anglo loan is at the expense of the taxpayer.

Leroy42

Whatever the numbers that turn out on Saturday, its hard to judge as many people don't want to be seen to siding with unions, SF or whatever (I mean in a general march type of thing).

The main protest will be the amount of people who either don't return the forms or don't pay the charges.

I think the real protests will come in January when the bills hit the doorsteps. My parents, for eg, hadn't looked at the meter or anything. I went to check it yesterday and found out that no meter had actually been installed (the hole in the ground with the cover plate was there).

The inherent unfairness built into the system will then become clear. 2 people sharing a flat and one has to pay 176 while the other 102? No metered can only pay up to a certain amount but cannot get any advantage for conserving water? People with a meter installed now have 9 months to get a leak fixed otherwsie they face extoriate costs, while those without a meter can disregard any leaks?

Banjo String

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Not really. There will be one or two test cases then when that's sorted they will likely go pretty fast. The only questions the judge will need to ask are do you live there and did you pay your bill.

Well the Govt could ignore the actions of half a million people I suppose.

I don't think they'd last very long afterwards though.

Qualitymark

I am utterly offended by the bullying tone of the whole Irish Water setup. My government is entitled to my PPS number, but not a company, and certainly not a company that promises to share this information with others, including others outside the country.
And what's this with the allowances for two people living in a house - the second person gets a smaller allowance? So if a woman imports a husband into her home, he's expected to wash himself less, drink less, and use less water in his dishwashing and clothes washing? Looney tunes!
And the split of allowances for separated parents - the kids' allowance has to go to one parent or the other: so the kids won't be allowed to shower during the four days they're with Dad, only the three days they're with Mam?
How do they set these things up in sane countries?

Grandpa Hassan

Qualitymark wrote: »

I am utterly offended by the bullying tone of the whole Irish Water setup. My government is entitled to my PPS number, but not a company, and certainly not a company that promises to share this information with others, including others outside the country.
And what's this with the allowances for two people living in a house - the second person gets a smaller allowance? So if a woman imports a husband into her home, he's expected to wash himself less, drink less, and use less water in his dishwashing and clothes washing? Looney tunes!
And the split of allowances for separated parents - the kids' allowance has to go to one parent or the other: so the kids won't be allowed to shower during the four days they're with Dad, only the three days they're with Mam?
How do they set these things up in sane countries?

In London they make it much simpler. You get a meter, or you have a flat fee based on number of bedrooms. That's it. And the charge is much more than Ireland (and Thames water is the 2nd cheapest in the country)

http://www.thameswater.co.uk/your-account/568.htm

None of this allowances stuff. To be fair to Irish Water, they are trying to give some benefit to people in certain more vulnerable situations. You cant possibly expect them to accomodate every single circumstance such as you have described

Geuze

Banjo String wrote: »

Please reread my post. I didn't say I paid 52% income tax. I said they already get 52% of my income in taxes.

I probably should have put in the word 'various' before taxes.

It would be possible, through extremely difficult, to calculate your total tax paid.

You would have to record the VAT and excise paid on each and very transaction throughout a year.

Nigh on impossible, I'd have thought.

FREETV

There are people with real balls and who are talking sensibly on this page.
https://www.facebook.com/WeWontPayTheWaterCharges
Don't give in to the EU and Private Corporate Body subservient bullies in power in Ireland and do not vote for Fianna Fail, Labour or Fine Gael ever again!

These two faced liars in power are corrupt and they will automatically get their huge pensions after they are kicked out of power so they do not care about the vulnerable and the elderly!
Consider attending the gathering at the Garden Of Rememberance in Dublin this Saturday too.
Some inspiration to get you riled up below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xmckWVPRaI

Barely There

FREETV wrote: »

There are people with real balls and who are talking sensibly on this page.

No, they don't have balls, they're talking balls.

Easy mistake to make.

FREETV

People with backbones on that Facebook page who will not give in to tyranny!

FREETV

Speaking of balls. The middle finger should be given to those in power and that should be the sign of victory!

Full throttle ahead with the protests.
Balls to the Wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_3TlrZLpQ0

_Kaiser_

FREETV wrote: »

Speaking of balls. The middle finger should be given to those in power and that should be the sign of victory!

Full throttle ahead with the protests.
Balls to the Wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_3TlrZLpQ0

Just some constructive feedback...

I object to the way this whole farce has been handled, the bully-boy tactics, the piss-poor communication, and the fact that they clearly haven't thought most of this out.

BUT... the way you're posting here would hardly inspire me (as average joe law-abiding citizen) to get involved.

Tone down the rhetoric a little and you might make more of an impact on people.

DamagedTrax

FREETV wrote: »

Speaking of balls. The middle finger should be given to those in power and that should be the sign of victory!

Full throttle ahead with the protests.
Balls to the Wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_3TlrZLpQ0

utterly terrible choice of music

but i do agree with your sentiment.

FREETV

It isn't thought out just like everthing else because a lot of those in the Dail are thick ignorant fat lazy, greedy, selfcentred Gombeens and fools always rush in.
It is literally a pretentious Puppet Theatre Mad House!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGHsxMqpL0c

DamagedTrax

FREETV wrote: »

It isn't thought out just like everthing else because a lot of those in the Dail are thick ignorant fat lazy, greedy, selfcentred Gombeens and fools always rush in.
It is literally a pretentious Puppet Theatre Mad House!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGHsxMqpL0c

we'll be protesting your street soon if you keep up this 80's metal shenanigans! :eek:

FREETV

DamagedTrax wrote: »

utterly terrible choice of music

but i do agree with your sentiment.

I like/likes my/me Metal as the Metalhead character in the Aviva advert states!

It is time for a peaceful revolution!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S68_spOUvdo

DamagedTrax

ffs with your JP :rolleyes:

we'll all know who you are on saturday.. just look out for a long haired lad in skinny jeans and a bandanna hangin out his back pocket and a sleavless 'treason' tour shirt on :pac:

Banjo String

More ministers starting to distance themselves from the whole thing..........

The spectacle of Cabinet Ministers suddenly distancing themselves from Irish Water after the former minister with responsibility for the semi-State utility criticised the unpopular organisation has been striking.

Fergus O’Dowd, who was sent to the back benches in the reshuffle, uttered negative remarks that appeared to open the floodgates this morning, with senior members of Government taking turns to knock the company.

The tough-talking Minister for Foreign Affairs Charlie Flanagan targeted Irish Water’s customer relations. The company needed to be “more customer friendly” and improve the extent to which it engaged with the public, he said.

With byelections in the key constituencies of Dublin South West and Roscommon South Leitrim just days away, anti-water charge campaigners will undoubtedly be in their element.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/analysis-ministers-distance-themselves-from-irish-water-1.1954914

FREETV

Real music for real men and not that talentless sugar coated explicit pop/pap crap played on radio stations polluting the minds of young people worldwide, sexualising young people and designed to breakup the family unit and cause more social problems.

Another great belated Christmas present for Irish Citizens in January from Irish Water in the form of a water bill if you sit on your hands and we all take the rude awakening in the rear!
Designed to cripple the lower incomed people and the elderly at a time when the Country will be freezing cold and heating expenses will be a real priority!

Controlling the masses literally.

Barely There

FREETV wrote: »

Another great belated Christmas present for Irish Citizens in January from Irish Water in the form of a water bill if you sit on your hands and we all take the rude awakening in the rear!
Designed to cripple the lower incomed people and the elderly at a time when the Country will be freezing cold and heating expenses will be a real priority!

How can you take it in the rear if you're sitting on your hands?

geeksauce

FREETV wrote: »

There are people with real balls and who are talking sensibly on this page.
https://www.facebook.com/WeWontPayTheWaterCharges
Don't give in to the EU and Private Corporate Body subservient bullies in power in Ireland and do not vote for Fianna Fail, Labour or Fine Gael ever again!

These two faced liars in power are corrupt and they will automatically get their huge pensions after they are kicked out of power so they do not care about the vulnerable and the elderly!
Consider attending the gathering at the Garden Of Rememberance in Dublin this Saturday too.
Some inspiration to get you riled up below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xmckWVPRaI

And who should people vote for instead? Sinn Fein? Hardly now!! I generally think people should be entitled to vote for whomever they desire. Are the others that may come to power after the current lot going to waive their huge pensions?

geeksauce

Barely There wrote: »

How can you take it in the rear if you're sitting on your hands?

Maybe it would be in a chair like Daniel Craig sat on in one of the bond films and was tortured with the rope

DamagedTrax

FREETV wrote: »

Real music for real men and not that talentless sugar coated explicit pop/pap crap played on radio stations polluting the minds of young people worldwide, sexualising young people and designed to breakup the family unit and cause more social problems.

i agree, dont get me wrong, i grew up on earache stuff :cool: (carcass, napalm death, bolt thrower etc).. its just funny seeing those videos again

Cantona's Collars

It took Matt Cooper over a month to get somebody from IW on his show & even then it was as if she was reading from a script.
The Lunchtime Show on Newstalk invited them on & they declined,even the host was pissed off with their evasiveness.

A company that wants our money but won't go on the national airways to answer valid questions.

FREETV

Barely There wrote: »

How can you take it in the rear if you're sitting on your hands?

I meant that people need to get off their butts, be proactive, protest and vote for Independents or Sinn Fein even in the next General Election and boycott the rest of the lowdown, shady, power hungry, Elite subservient lot.
The phrase much of a muchness springs to mind as the other three Parties all have the same agendas.

The taking it in the rear starts later in January if people decide to pay for water and it will effect everybody's quality of life in general except the wealthy of course with lots of expendable/disposable incomes.

Phoebas

zerks wrote: »

It took Matt Cooper over a month to get somebody from IW on his show & even then it was as if she was reading from a script.

So it took a while, but eventually they got someone on, right?

zerks wrote: »

A company that wants our money but won't go on the national airways to answer valid questions.

But you just said that they did go on Matt Cooper's show.