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***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

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    #3932
    papu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭papu


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And where did the state get the money?

    EU, IMF.


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    #3933
    jameshayes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And where did the state get the money?
    papu wrote: »
    EU, IMF.

    The money came from the EU & IMF deal to cover the deficit, in order to 'right the ship' the government has to try to balance the budget - it will not happen immediately, not even in the short term.. but what is better, asking people to pay for a commodity or to keep sinking further and further into debt?

    If they don't get the money from water, where do you suggest they next make cuts? The hospitals? Garda? Less staff in the dole office?


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    #3934
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    jameshayes wrote: »
    The money came from the EU & IMF deal to cover the deficit, in order to 'right the ship' the government has to try to balance the budget - it will not happen immediately, not even in the short term.. but what is better, asking people to pay for a commodity or to keep sinking further and further into debt?

    If they don't get the money from water, where do you suggest they next make cuts? The hospitals? Garda? Less staff in the dole office?

    The deficit was not caused by what it took to maintain the water service.
    FG/Lab promised to reform the PS, if they had done that and got rid inefficiencies and increased the pitiful levels of productivity in Local Authorities there was no need to set up a costly and unneccesary quango to deliver what was already being delivered.
    We are now paying for both...the inefficient LA's and a new super expensive quango.
    Did somebody mention deficit? :rolleyes:


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    #3935
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    geeksauce wrote: »
    Outed as a snob? I don't get you, I have no issue with you calling me a snob Damaged none whatsoever.

    strange, most would hide themselves in shame at the downright classism you displayed... but there's no accounting for the ross o'carroll kellys of this world.


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    #3936
    geeksauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 826 ✭✭✭geeksauce


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    strange, most would hide themselves in shame at the downright classism you displayed... but there's no accounting for the ross o'carroll kellys of this world.

    Hide themselves in shame? Why exactly would one do that? You called me a snob and I was supposed to get upset about that? Why exactly would I care if you think I am a snob?


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    #3937
    jameshayes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The deficit was not caused by what it took to maintain the water service.
    FG/Lab promised to reform the PS, if they had done that and got rid inefficiencies and increased the pitiful levels of productivity in Local Authorities there was no need to set up a costly and unneccesary quango to deliver what was already being delivered.
    We are now paying for both...the inefficient LA's and a new super expensive quango.
    Did somebody mention deficit? :rolleyes:

    I did not say the deficit came from maintaining the water service alone, but yes - you are correct, it was a factor.

    FG/Lab can promise's are worth SFA, like any one in politics, words are cheap. There were a number of recommendations on how to improve the GDP and the gov are acting on some of these. The water tax was in the pipeline for a long time before this, but it is a solution to some of the problem. - there is some good info here about GDP and other stats if you have not seen it before, http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/indicators - I can send on more info if required.

    IW was a necessity, the water system in Ireland was and is a joke, this company will work to fix the problem and hopefully will be successful.


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    #3938
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    jameshayes wrote: »

    IW was a necessity, the water system in Ireland was and is a joke, this company will work to fix the problem and hopefully will be successful.

    Why was it a joke? It had problems and infrastructure was neglected...but a joke? I think you are buying into the spin a bit here.


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    #3939
    geeksauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 826 ✭✭✭geeksauce


    jameshayes wrote: »
    IW was a necessity, the water system in Ireland was and is a joke, this company will work to fix the problem and hopefully will be successful.

    I don't think IW was a necessity, the amount of money thrown at them just to set it up is scandalous and I would guess that there will be more things coming out about the money being spent on the set up of IW that will only further infuriate the public. The money spent on IW could easily have been used to repair the shoddy infrastructure currently in place, I think IW is a completely unnecessary company.


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    #3940
    jameshayes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Why was it a joke? It had problems and infrastructure was neglected...but a joke? I think you are buying into the spin a bit here.

    How was it not a joke, any engineer in Ireland will tell you that it was a farce, old equipment, poor infrastructure, poor water quality. Sure look at some down the country on boil notice, poxy brown water coming from taps!?


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    #3941
    KERSPLAT!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,152 ✭✭✭✭KERSPLAT!


    MOD

    Geeksauce and Damagedtrax, if ye two want to continue your flirting can ye take it to PM, it's getting very boring at this stage. Give it a rest.


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    #3942
    jameshayes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    geeksauce wrote: »
    I don't think IW was a necessity, the amount of money thrown at them just to set it up is scandalous and I would guess that there will be more things coming out about the money being spent on the set up of IW that will only further infuriate the public. The money spent on IW could easily have been used to repair the shoddy infrastructure currently in place, I think IW is a completely unnecessary company.

    Like what? bonuses? If you want to hire good people, you need to pay them well - which includes a bonus. Its a basic part of PRP.


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    #3943
    geeksauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 826 ✭✭✭geeksauce


    jameshayes wrote: »
    How was it not a joke, any engineer in Ireland will tell you that it was a farce, old equipment, poor infrastructure, poor water quality. Sure look at some down the country on boil notice, poxy brown water coming from taps!?

    It was in a crap state alright, but that was largely due to massive underinvestment in the systems in place. Yet all of a sudden there is a pile of money found somewhere to set up a company that will invest in the repair of our water systems. Makes no sense, taking the money that was spent setting up IW and investing it in our water systems would make a lot more sense.


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    #3944
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    jameshayes wrote: »
    How was it not a joke, any engineer in Ireland will tell you that it was a farce, old equipment, poor infrastructure, poor water quality. Sure look at some down the country on boil notice, poxy brown water coming from taps!?

    There was neglected infrastructure, no denial there. But that can be fixed with investment. Something that FG/FF/Greens/Lab all neglected to do when there was money there.
    Those on boil notice are exceptions to the rule that the majority got potable water when they turned on their taps.


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    #3945
    donegaLroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    Is it true that Siemens offered to install the water meters free of charge but the government turned down the offer?


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    #3946
    Vanessa2003
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭Vanessa2003


    Just a Quick question if I already pay LPT and they know how many people live in my house already, why don t them do some job themselfs and find out (it's not rocket science) rather then I pay for water I can not drink + register myself (as I will pay anyways ) and what Water Company do nothing ......
    If I don t register will I realy pay 400 + € just for not giving Water Company our PPS numbers ??
    Thanking you


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    #3947
    jameshayes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    geeksauce wrote: »
    It was in a crap state alright, but that was largely due to massive underinvestment in the systems in place. Yet all of a sudden there is a pile of money found somewhere to set up a company that will invest in the repair of our water systems. Makes no sense, taking the money that was spent setting up IW and investing it in our water systems would make a lot more sense.

    The money was never there to make massive investments - the country have not had a positive GDP in a long time, we are pushing ourselves further into debt in order to get out of it, or in laymans terms, speculate to accumulate.


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    #3948
    geeksauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 826 ✭✭✭geeksauce


    jameshayes wrote: »
    The money was never there to make massive investments - the country have not had a positive GDP in a long time, we are pushing ourselves further into debt in order to get out of it, or in laymans terms, speculate to accumulate.

    The country was apparently awash with money a few years ago, yet there was still insufficient investment in the water system, the fact people are on boil notices is disgraceful. I am in a hard water area and used to have to replace appliances regularly, kettles, showers, washing machines etc. I now have a water softener installed cost me €700 and I have to buy salt every few weeks for it all because the water being supplied to my house is substandard.

    The amount of money wasted on IW is insane, this money should have been used to repair the shoddy water infrastructure that's the bottom line.


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    #3949
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    geeksauce wrote: »
    The amount of money wasted on IW is insane, this money should have been used to repair the shoddy water infrastructure that's the bottom line.

    It would have amounted to 9 months of infrastructure work (based on the €240m spent last year).

    Not much tbh.

    In the long term, a centralised authority stands a better chance of improving infrastructure than 30+ councils.


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    #3950
    geeksauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 826 ✭✭✭geeksauce


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    It would have amounted to 9 months of infrastructure work (based on the €240m spent last year).

    Not much tbh.

    In the long term, a centralised authority stands a better chance of improving infrastructure than 30+ councils.

    Probably so, but if some of the resources poured into IW were invested in the 30 councils, or the few Regional Authorities there would have been improvement without the need to set up IW.


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    #3951
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    geeksauce wrote: »
    Probably so, but if some of the resources poured into IW were invested in the 30 councils, or the few Regional Authorities there would have been improvement without the need to set up IW.

    That can't be stated with any certainty.
    And again, its too short term.
    So the IW €180m startup cash is gone..... Spent amongst the counties, exhausted in less than a year.
    Then what?


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    #3952
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    That can't be stated with any certainty.
    And again, its too short term.
    So the IW €180m startup cash is gone..... Spent amongst the counties, exhausted in less than a year.
    Then what?

    You make sure they work...eg: reform as you promised to do.


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    #3953
    geeksauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 826 ✭✭✭geeksauce


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    That can't be stated with any certainty.
    And again, its too short term.
    So the IW €180m startup cash is gone..... Spent amongst the counties, exhausted in less than a year.
    Then what?

    Then the revenue raised through domestic charges covers costs going forward. No fear of privatising our water system and charges.


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    #3954
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    donegaLroad wrote: »
    Is it true that Siemens offered to install the water meters free of charge but the government turned down the offer?

    They made some kind of offer like that alright.
    They wanted to do it for free so much that they didn't apply to do it for money when the tender came around. The folk over at Siemens are altruistic to a fault.


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    #3955
    CB19Kevo
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭CB19Kevo


    My own opinion is that the water meters should be installed and control handed back to local authorities with a national authority that controls water quality and is involved in planning of infrastructure as well as central management.
    The meters should be used for research purposes and charging if use is over a set amount beyond what is reasonable.

    The reason i say they should be installed is we are in mid process and now that the job has started it should be finished.
    Also having unlimited supply of water without payment really is a bit ridiculous just as is being expected to pay for reasonable levels.

    In a country with so much rain and such a small population i don't think the current system can be justified,Not when there is 40% or more loss due to old or badly designed infrastructure.

    The whole situation is a mess,Rushed ahead without enough consultation.


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    #3956
    cajonlardo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭cajonlardo


    "Asked why it hadn't pursued the Siemens offer the Department of the Environment didn't supply an explanation, but said it had chosen the Irish Water option after 12 months of discussions with stakeholders as "the optimal organisational form for water services delivery in Ireland".

    I can't post urls but of you google Siemens cheaper water meters you will get some facts

    Hogan didn't want Siemens involved.


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    #3957
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    cajonlardo wrote: »
    Hogan didn't want Siemens involved.
    Siemens didn't compete for the tender.


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    #3958
    cajonlardo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭cajonlardo


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Siemens didn't compete for the tender.

    Siemens offered to supply the meters free.

    Hogan & other F.G awarded the contract elsewhere and it cost the taxpayer upwards of €350 million.

    Are either of those statements wrong?


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    #3959
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,002 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    cajonlardo wrote: »
    Siemens offered to supply the meters free.

    Hogan & other F.G awarded the contract elsewhere and it cost the taxpayer upwards of €350 million.

    Are either of those statements wrong?

    You need proof to back up a claim like that, link please


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    #3960
    cajonlardo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭cajonlardo


    VinLieger wrote: »
    You need proof to back up a claim like that, link please

    What part of " I can't post links" do you need help with?

    I supplied a quote and an exact phrase to google.

    Its not like this has not been WIDELY reported


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    #3961
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    cajonlardo wrote: »
    Siemens offered to supply the meters free.

    Hogan & other F.G awarded the contract elsewhere and it cost the taxpayer upwards of €350 million.

    Are either of those statements wrong?
    The first is wrong - it wasn't free. They wanted their money back.
    Siemens proposed funding the fitting of water meters through an investment to be paid back through savings made in the multibillion-euro cost of providing water services once the meters were installed.


This discussion has been closed.
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