***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

RobertKK

end of the road wrote: »

we don't need water charges to "make people think about water" if they don't all ready they won't now. people only use what they need, the leaving on of taps is the only abuse of water but it was necessary to keep the pipes from freezing as there is no and never will be a cost effective way of fixing them. the water charges aren't about water conservation and thats the end of it so stop the deluded tripe. it will be sold off eventually and the new paracite owners will triple the prices every year and nothing will change apart from money made being stolen from the people to fund private shareholders

It is about conserving as well as raising money.

Some people shower too much, have big full baths to swim/bathe in. Use a dishwater too much, flush a toilet for one pee, leave on a tap while brushing teeth, wash clothes that aren't dirty but have been worn very little.
There are loads of ways in which is wasted.

People should pay for their water, they pay for overpriced alcohol and other things that are far less precious than water.

BoJack Horseman

Caliden wrote: »

The government knows they ****ed up with the water charges and are now trying to sweeten the deal with the charge being tax deductible.

Attempting to appease the masses with what can only be likened to a bribe.

We love being bribed with our own money.

Irish people have been falling for that for decades.

Its why the social welfare system has a €400bn unfunded mandate.

listermint

mickydoomsux wrote: »

He's on the ground in the south of the country.

They are well paid for what they are doing (labouring basically) because the company acknowledges that they'll get hassle.

Got you so he is an Irish Water Employee then, with an Irish Water Vehicle and not any of the under paid subcontractors of whom i exactly indicated in my original post. GMC Sierra

Phoebas

Caliden wrote: »

Attempting to appease the masses with what can only be likened to a bribe.

Damned if they do; damned if they don't.

mickydoomsux

listermint wrote: »

Got you so he is an Irish Water Employee then, with an Irish Water Vehicle ....

Where can he go to claim his Irish Water Vehicle?

listermint

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Where can he go to claim his Irish Water Vehicle?

So he is not a direct employee? You are being deliberately obtuse. Considering i was talking about the underpaid subcontractors.

dxhound2005

listermint wrote: »

You keep rolling this line out, but those other workers you are so keen on standing firm by and letting them have peaceful installations are on Zero Hour Contracts and below Irish Wage. They are Sub Contractors of Sub Contractors. but you are happy to have Irish Water rip them off also.

Bit of an antithesis to your perceived solidarity to these 'working men' ain't it ?

The ones I saw all had the gear belonging to this company and it was their vehicles.

http://www.cnl.ie/

I had a short conversation with two of them. Just about making room to take my car out this morning and then to check the meter was running later when they asked me to turn on the tap. First one had a Cork accent, second one Donegal although I didn't ask. The first one said they are getting awful abuse in some places. I could take it from that, that no locals are being deployed because the Dundalk paramilitaries might recognise them and take reprisals.

If you have any evidence about zero hour contracts etc in relation to this company please share.

Technoprisoner

RobertKK wrote: »

It is about conserving as well as raising money.

Some people shower too much, have big full baths to swim/bathe in. Use a dishwater too much, flush a toilet for one pee, leave on a tap while brushing teeth, wash clothes that aren't dirty but have been worn very little.
There are loads of ways in which is wasted.

People should pay for their water, they pay for overpriced alcohol and other things that are far less precious than water.

people are already paying for the water through tax

RobertKK

Technoprisoner wrote: »

people are already paying for the water through tax

They are not, I never got a tax refund for paying for my own water.

BoJack Horseman

Technoprisoner wrote: »

people are already paying for the water through tax

The couple hundred million now not coming from central government for water services will just be spent elsewhere.

Which is something I'd imagine anyone supporting SF or the SP/AAA would support.

smash

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Right, but you've made two claims that from what I can see that video doesn't address.

Claim 1: That 500m is enough to upgrade our entire water infrastructure.

Claim 2: That spending 500m to upgrade our infrastructure (full or partial) will save more water than metering will.

The video claims that by spending the 500m in fixing the leaks and upgrading old pipes more water will be saved than any cost saving measure brought about by water tax will.

Grandpa Hassan

Technoprisoner wrote: »

people are already paying for the water through tax

Not any more. That's now being used for other things

Danonino.

Just to say there are a lot of people qouting numbers of the unemployed or those that are eligible for the household package/fuel allowance etc that are wrong.

These people are ignoring the fact that only one in a household can avail of the house package and it also isn't available to anyone living with another that doesnt qualify.

For example if two people are housesharing, one is working the other is not, the numbers being quoted by some take the unemployed person into account yet they don't qualify for the household package or fuel allowance and I'm 99% sure this will include the proposed €100 cut.

That's only one example, there are plenty more, and plenty more examples where one will appear on the register but NOT qualify for any extra... em.. handouts for want of a better word. Just wanted to say that qouting the number of folk unemployed does not equal the number that can avail or will avail of the free handouts etc.

Also cries for the welfare to be reduced are misguided, welfare is a trap. As someone who has worked at €15 an hour 35 hours a week, at minimum wage, has been on jobseekers and x&o's I know what its like to be on under €190 a week and it sure doesn't feel like a free ride or easy. In fact its a trudge through each week wondering how you can step out of it. I also know how easily one can forget this when receiving a steady income and how someone who has never been on such a low income can find it hard to understand. Many say after their expenses (loans/car/home/bills etc) they are at a low income but they easily forget they have the things they are paying for or a far better quality of life than those relying solely on welfare for example.

Instead of cutting welfare, those on it need to be monitored and (importantly) chased up to step out of it. Mandatory service work should be implemented where those unemployed and able must work a set amount of hours a week doing community tasks, road sweeping/painting/charity work etc. Mandatory job assistance meetings and regular checks that they are actively seeking work need to be doubled. Assistance in finding work needs to not be as optional and applications to jobs need to be monitored. I understand what this would be costly and take time to introduce but its a change I think is needed badly.

Simply cutting welfare will not make those unemployed say 'jaysus I better get a job cause I'm unable to survive' it will just dig them deeper into living week to week and feeling hopeless. Now don't get me wrong, there are plenty of lazy folk, or worse, those abusing the system or making money from being nothing more than criminals but to assume all people on jobseekers (for example) are sucking those working dry and laughing which a few comments seem to suggest shows very little compassion or empathy for very many people.

I'm with many on here who see how water charges have been conducted NOT water charges themselves as the straw that broke the camels back. These proposed allowances and increase to the household package only blur the issue and pit the working against the unemployed which is never a good thing.

Iwasfrozen

smash wrote: »

The video claims that by spending the 500m in fixing the leaks and upgrading old pipes more water will be saved than any cost saving measure brought about by water tax will.

The video claims but where is the proof for both those claims?

Irish Steve

Water meters are no different in concept than the introduction of the NCT testing system, it was "required" by Europe (or the IMF/Troika) and resisted for as long as possible by local politics, because there was no way that it was "acceptable", even if desperately needed to get some of the heaps of scrap off the road, and eventually, the line was "shure, we had no choice, we're part of Europe now, and we had to be in "their" system, so it was sweetened with scrappage allowances, and over a relatively short period of time, the worst of the scrap was off the road, and it did make a difference.

IW will be no different, but the theory is that because it's outside of political influence and control, if they say "repair this water main", then it will be done, and properly funded, rather than long fingered so that some other "pet" scheme can get higher priority, which has too often been the case when the local authorities were "managing" water.

Water has been a political football since I can't remember when, and no one has had the courage to stand up and say that providing water without some sort of usage factor charge was unsustainable. Now, Europe (Troika/IMF) has given the politicians an out, they have/had no choice, and water charges are coming in. the fact that the significant parts of the rest of the world pay water/waste water charges should tell us something.

Water, and the related waste disposal, which is being conveniently ignored by most people here, costs, big time, and it's become exponentially more expensive in recent times as a result of anti pollution regulations that also have come from Europe. I know, my father managed a waste water treatment facility for 100,000 people in the UK, and I did holiday work doing things like take trade effluent samples so they could work out what the commercial waste disposal fees were going to be, and this was 40 years ago, so charges are nothing new.

What's wrong with the way this is being done is that it's yet another overpaid, over bonused overstaffed semi state that's taken the dead wood that the County Councils were only too happy to see moved on, as it's the only way they could get rid of the non performing people.

I've spent the better part of 15 YEARS beating my head against a wall trying to get Meath County Council to resolve some fundamental design issues with a sewer that was responsible for €120K flooding damage in 2002. I'm now waiting for IW to respond to an E-mail that was sent to them on the same issue, as they are now responsible for the infrastructure that's responsible for the problem. I'm not going to hold my breath, I suspect that they will be as equally unresponsive as MCC have been.

Another issue that's been ignored is the quality of the water being delivered. The fact that it's drinkable does NOT mean that it's acceptable, 18 months after we moved in here, I had to spend nearly €250 repairing our hot water system, as it had been furred up by limescale, and that sort of expense was then required on a regular basis to keep it working, until we fitted a water softener in 2000, which solved the problems of the lime scale, but it's now going to cost me even more than the regular bags of salt to keep the softener working, I will now have to pay a surcharge to IW because I want an acceptable quality of water, as they apparently won't be resolving excessive hardness issues in their supply.

I can only hope that if it's outside the EU directive quality, they will be forced to either improve it, or reduce the charge to the areas that they are supplying sub standard quality to. Some chance of that though, given the shambles of how this has been set up.

As for Politics, which is underlying all of this

FF. After what they did to the country, NO WAY, not for a very long time. Way too many self serving people who only looked after No 1 to the detriment of the rest of us
FG. are starting to look like a blue version of FF, they've not delivered on way too many fundamental changes that were needed and proposed at the last election.
Labour, Don't trust them, not with the way that the unions control too much of the critical aspects of the infrastructure
Independents, Way too many single issue people with no real understanding or plan on how the country should be run
SF. Don't start me on that option,

What's left? Nothing, and that's the scary thing, there is no party that has an acceptable and reasonable agenda for making Ireland what it could be, and doing so on behalf of the people, rather than looking after their own narrow and personal agendas.

Budget soon, that's going to be interesting to watch. Lots of people running scared about their chances at the next election. Pity they won't be facing the same pressures that the huge number of people out of work are facing, why are politicians so special, if they don't get the vote, that's no different than someone losing their job because the company they worked for has failed, or closed, or moved to a cheaper economy, so why do politicians get special treatment when they lose.

Back to IW, We're stuck with it, what's needed is for the relevant people at the top to grasp the nettle and make the changes that are needed to make IW an acceptable operation. That means No bonuses until they are up, working and delivering on things like leak reduction, it means having a charging structure that's realistic in terms of the sums a normal family has to pay for the water they need, it means having acceptable quality of water, it means getting value for money from the money that should be ring fenced for sorting out decades of under investment and neglect. If that happens, maybe IW will be an acceptable organisation.

end of the road

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What's wrong with privatizing Irish Water? A private company will have the capital to upgrade our infrastructure.

yeah, because thats what happened in the UK when the water was sold off/privatized, oh, wait. the paracitic private companies continuously screw the people take the money home and deliver little to nothing in return. they may have the capital to fix the infrastructure, but they won't. the idea that privatization of public services/state infrastructure = good service is just not true. so the question should be whats right with it?

end of the road

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ireland's water infrastructure is a disgrace. A private company wouldn't get away with that and would actually have the capital needed to upgrade our infrastructure the government lacks.

they get away with it on a daily basis in a certain country

end of the road

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I wouldn't have allowed Ireland to get into the situation of having a €13/€14 primary deficit by pandering to every lefty whim. Then Europe would have had no leverage over me to take on the bank debt.

how does that work. why should we take on the bank debt thats not our debt because of the government supposibly "pandering to every lefty whim." . the only reason the EU had leverage over us to take on the bank debt was because we were an easy target that could be bullied into taking it on.

end of the road

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

True, but one came before the other.

Ireland faced imminent default & a severe run on the banks.

FF's vast overspend & revenue collapse necessitated the bailout.
The French, German & even US finance heads held our imminent default over us to ldverage us also taking on the unnecessary Anglo debt.

To our ruination.

Tight fisical control would have left Ireland in a position to tell the EU & Tim Geitner to get stuffed.

exactly. we were blackmailed and bullied into taking it on rather then telling these vermin French German & US finance heads to take a hike

smash

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The video claims but where is the proof for both those claims?

Did you watch the video? The guy from Dublin county council had all the facts and figures on what percentage will be saved. He even quotes uk figures and others.

end of the road

RobertKK wrote: »

It is about conserving as well as raising money.

no it isn't. conserving doesn't even come into it, conserve and you will be charged more, as stated by irish water as they need to make a proffit. its about raising money and building a company to look after the water infrastructure. conservation doesn't even come into it, only in the minds of the deluded.

RobertKK wrote: »

Some people shower too much, have big full baths to swim/bathe in. Use a dishwater too much, flush a toilet for one pee, leave on a tap while brushing teeth, wash clothes that aren't dirty but have been worn very little.

nobody "showers to much" your supposed to shower a lot. people are entitled to have a bath using their water. nobody uses a dishwasher to much, they use it to do the job it was intended to do, wash dishes. people only wash clothes when dirty, its what your supposed to do. toilet needs to be flushed unless you want diseased ridden buildings and people.

RobertKK wrote: »

People should pay for their water, they pay for overpriced alcohol and other things that are far less precious than water.

no they shouldn't, because "they pay for overpriced alcohol and other things that are far less precious than water" is no reason to pay for water. and alcohol isn't overpriced in this country apart from the pubs who rip off people, refuse travelers and other groups they don't like all the while whining about having no customers.

Iwasfrozen

end of the road wrote: »

yeah, because thats what happened in the UK when the water was sold off/privatized, oh, wait. the paracitic private companies continuously screw the people take the money home and deliver little to nothing in return. they may have the capital to fix the infrastructure, but they won't. the idea that privatization of public services/state infrastructure = good service is just not true. so the question should be whats right with it?

Do you have anything more substantial than anecdotal evidence?

RobertKK

end of the road wrote: »

no it isn't. conserving doesn't even come into it, conserve and you will be charged more, as stated by irish water as they need to make a proffit. its about raising money and building a company to look after the water infrastructure. conservation doesn't even come into it, only in the minds of the deluded.



nobody "showers to much" your supposed to shower a lot. people are entitled to have a bath using their water. nobody uses a dishwasher to much, they use it to do the job it was intended to do, wash dishes. people only wash clothes when dirty, its what your supposed to do. toilet needs to be flushed unless you want diseased ridden buildings and people.



no they shouldn't, because "they pay for overpriced alcohol and other things that are far less precious than water" is no reason to pay for water. and alcohol isn't overpriced in this country apart from the pubs who rip off people, refuse travelers and other groups they don't like all the while whining about having no customers.

So there isn't talk about taking water from the Shannon for Dublin?
No need to conserve water?

Yes some people think you need to shower twice a day, when we were children it was a bath once a week, there was no showers, we didn't die with basic hygiene inbetween.
It is no surprise with all the cleaning that people are probably weaker than ever and more allergic to things than ever before, you need some dirt to build up immunity, there are people who take cleaning themselves to extreme and are in fact making themselves more vunerable.
A pee in the toilet and not flushed before another pee is added will not disease a building and people.
Flush for a number two, for one pee it is a waste of water.
I don't even bother with a dishwasher, I use a basin in the sink and it saves a lot of water compared to a dishwasher.
There are people who put on a wash and don't fill the washing machine and so doing waste water by not waiting for a full wash.

You have no solutions on how to conserve water as you seem to totally discount the need to conserve, people with Irish water will have an allowance before they pay extra.
It is time we had water and sewage equality and everyone paying rather than some paying with others claiming they paid for it with their taxes when they haven't.
Tell me why have people with private wells/group water schemes and septic tanks have not received a tax refund for saving the state money given we are supposedly paying tax for your water and sewage facilities.

Danonino.

RobertKK wrote: »

So there isn't talk about taking water from the Shannon for Dublin?
No need to conserve water?

Snip....

• Dublin City and County has a population of 1,273,069.

• 1.8 million people currently live in the Greater Dublin Area, a region comprising Dublin and the counties of Meath, Kildare and Wicklow. This figure is set to grow to 2.2 million by 2031.

• The GDA accounts for 39% of the State’s population.



The need to move water where it is needed is not the same as having to conserve water that is in short supply in my opinion. The fact that 39% of our population is densely packed into one area is a problem separate to water conservation.

Iwasfrozen

Danonino. wrote: »

• Dublin City and County has a population of 1,273,069.

• 1.8 million people currently live in the Greater Dublin Area, a region comprising Dublin and the counties of Meath, Kildare and Wicklow. This figure is set to grow to 2.2 million by 2031.

• The GDA accounts for 39% of the State’s population.



The need to move water where it is needed is not the same as having to conserve water that is in short supply in my opinion. The fact that 39% of our population is densely packed into one area is a problem separate to water conservation.

Dublin is not densely populated. It's pretty normal by European standards. The rest of the country is under populated.

Services would be easier to provide if a higher percentage of the country lived in the GDA.

gladrags

Prime Time tonight 22:35

Topic

"Has the Anti Water Protests Succeeded"

VinLieger

God I might actually watch it to see all the deluded crusties after todays news thinking they have actually made something happen when in reality the budget stuff was decided weeks if not months ago

Danonino.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Dublin is not densely populated. It's pretty normal by European standards. The rest of the country is under populated.

Services would be easier to provide if a higher percentage of the country lived in the GDA.

Didn't think of it like that I did mean compared to the rest of Ireland not to other countries but point taken.

gladrags

VinLieger wrote: »

God I might actually watch it to see all the deluded crusties after todays news thinking they have actually made something happen when in reality the budget stuff was decided weeks if not months ago

How do you know?

Did Joan Phone Home?

mucksavage1985

i checked my water meter and we have used 325 litres in 13 days. on average that is 25 litres per day for a couple living in the house. So on average that equates to 9125 litres for the year. So by my calculation we won't reach the allowance given. So will our water cost us anything for the year? As far as i know we will not be billed.