***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Mumm_ra

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Mumm_ra wrote: »

Do you remember signing a contract for your water and waste water services pre Irish Water?

Didn't get an allowance/bill before so no need - is there a point here?

Barely There

chasm wrote: »

Head of Customer Operations with Irish Water Paul O’ Donoghue stated this back in September on Ocean FM:

"...its not a contract per se, in fact the fact of being a customer for irish water services is established under statute, so there's law there that indicates that if you are receiving your services in a particular fashion you are customer of irish water so this application form is not in, in of itself a contract, it doesnt need to be"

http://oceanfm.ie/2014/09/04/irish-water-application-packs-arrive-to-households-in-the-northwest/

If you look up the relevant legislation you will see that what he said is correct.

You don't sign a contract for your tv license either - you still have to pay for one if you have a tv though.

Little CuChulainn

Mumm_ra wrote: »

Thanks that is helpful so why are people so adverse to completing a form that means nothing

As should be obvious from this thread it's because they know sweet FA about the law and fear their pps number gives access to their soul.

dxhound2005

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

As should be obvious from this thread it's because they know sweet FA about the law and fear their pps number gives access to their soul.

It's no wonder people have to wait to get through to IW when you have Freemen ringing up wasting their time explaining the law about a cooling off period. And then trying to get them to agree to some imaginary right to withdraw from their "contract".

Hijpo

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It's no wonder people have to wait to get through to IW when you have Freemen ringing up wasting their time explaining the law about a cooling off period. And then trying to get them to agree to some imaginary right to withdraw from their "contract".

Back to the tactic of sticking people in the shameful minorities to soften their cough I see.

_Kaiser_

OK, let's simplify this a bit and step back from all the Freeman/PPS usage/Contact stuff for a minute...

The bottom line is this..

Irish Water has already shown itself to be incompetent, run by incompetent wasteful hangers-on, and incapable of getting it's straightforward (if you believe the pro-camp here) message across without making a mess of it - this week's drama around Landlords v Tenant responsibilties is just the last example.

Whether the pro-side like it or not, IW was set (until Tuesday anyway) to double or triple charge us for a service we already pay for.
Only because of the march last weekend did Enda and co panic and throw in tax credits in an attempt to soften the blow while simultaneously clapping themselves on the back over people being on average €8 a week "better off" :rolleyes:

However, once/if IW do get their "customer" database you can be sure of a few things...

1. The prices will only go up. It has feck all to do with conservation either - it's already been stated and agreed that IW can increase prices if revenue fell as a result of people watching their usage. Look at the post-08 Motor Tax situation for precedent - people went out and bought low-emission BMWs so they hiked those rates 2 years ago as well.

2. The infrastructure won't significantly change. You have people who haven't been able to drink the water that comes out of the tap for years, or have to soften or otherwise treat the water so it doesn't wreck their appliances - and these people are STILL expected to sign up and cough up unless they're on an "approved" boil notice list?

Ultimately the work will still be the responsibility of the same people who've been looking after it till now - the only place the extra money will go is into the pockets of the executives and bonuses for the staff for doing a job that didn't need to be done.

3. This whole exercise has been designed as a revenue exercise to appease the EU/IMF, not fix our water supplies. It's the normal Irish approach of doing something without ACTUALLY doing something about the real problems, and setting it up as a job creation scheme for the connected. Once they have their database, and we get past GE 2016, you can be certain that IW (if it still exists) will be privatised and sold to someone like O'Brien (FG have a track-record in this after all and the likely result of the GE is probably a FF/FG coalition because Paddy and Mary won't objectively consider anything else - not that there's much to choose from of course!)

4. The vast majority of people who have a problem with all this are ordinary people who have already been stretched enough by FG/LAB's cronyism and incompetence to say nothing of FF's legacy.

Most people don't give a fook about Freeman shyte, or PPS numbers - but they realise that if they hand over this information (cynically positioned as an "application pack") then they are only sealing the fate of water provisioning in Ireland as well as adding another bill to their list while getting nothing back for it (8 quid a week and a 100 Euro tax credit - if you're working - won't go very far).

More than that - people have FINALLY had enough of Enda and Co's cynical cash grabs. FG and LAB were elected on a campaign of promised reform, transparency and a "new way" of doing business. Instead it's been "business as usual" at the top - indeed, you could say that FG/LAB are actually WORSE as at least with FF, you know what you're getting!

Irish Water is simply the last straw for many people - and about time too really!

tallus

Excellent post Kaiser

Little CuChulainn

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK, let's simplify this a bit and step back from all the Freeman/PPS usage/Contact stuff for a minute...

The bottom line is this..

Irish Water has already shown itself to be incompetent, run by incompetent wasteful hangers-on, and incapable of getting it's straightforward (if you believe the pro-camp here) message across without making a mess of it - this week's drama around Landlords v Tenant responsibilties is just the last example.

Whether the pro-side like it or not, IW was set (until Tuesday anyway) to double or triple charge us for a service we already pay for.
Only because of the march last weekend did Enda and co panic and throw in tax credits in an attempt to soften the blow while simultaneously clapping themselves on the back over people being on average €8 a week "better off" :rolleyes:

However, once/if IW do get their "customer" database you can be sure of a few things...

1. The prices will only go up. It has feck all to do with conservation either - it's already been stated and agreed that IW can increase prices if revenue fell as a result of people watching their usage. Look at the post-08 Motor Tax situation for precedent - people went out and bought low-emission BMWs so they hiked those rates 2 years ago as well.

2. The infrastructure won't significantly change. You have people who haven't been able to drink the water that comes out of the tap for years, or have to soften or otherwise treat the water so it doesn't wreck their appliances - and these people are STILL expected to sign up and cough up unless they're on an "approved" boil notice list?

Ultimately the work will still be the responsibility of the same people who've been looking after it till now - the only place the extra money will go is into the pockets of the executives and bonuses for the staff for doing a job that didn't need to be done.

3. This whole exercise has been designed as a revenue exercise to appease the EU/IMF, not fix our water supplies. It's the normal Irish approach of doing something without ACTUALLY doing something about the real problems, and setting it up as a job creation scheme for the connected. Once they have their database, and we get past GE 2016, you can be certain that IW (if it still exists) will be privatised and sold to someone like O'Brien (FG have a track-record in this after all and the likely result of the GE is probably a FF/FG coalition because Paddy and Mary won't objectively consider anything else - not that there's much to choose from of course!)

4. The vast majority of people who have a problem with all this are ordinary people who have already been stretched enough by FG/LAB's cronyism and incompetence to say nothing of FF's legacy.

Most people don't give a fook about Freeman shyte, or PPS numbers - but they realise that if they hand over this information (cynically positioned as an "application pack") then they are only sealing the fate of water provisioning in Ireland as well as adding another bill to their list while getting nothing back for it (8 quid a week and a 100 Euro tax credit - if you're working - won't go very far).

More than that - people have FINALLY had enough of Enda and Co's cynical cash grabs. FG and LAB were elected on a campaign of promised reform, transparency and a "new way" of doing business. Instead it's been "business as usual" at the top - indeed, you could say that FG/LAB are actually WORSE as at least with FF, you know what you're getting!

Irish Water is simply the last straw for many people - and about time too really!

It's a bit silly comparing it to motor tax. The figure for motor tax can be set arbitrarily. Irish Water have to cover the cost of supply and become self funding.

Banjo String

It's spreading like wildfire . This might put an end to the 'typical Dublin knacker' stereotyping.

Irish water is doomed I think.

Thousands of people are set to take to the streets across Ireland tomorrow in a series of water charges protests.

As the Government came under renewed pressure yesterday over Irish Water, protest groups in Cork, Tipperary, and Clare called for a huge turnout at the various rallies.

One of the largest is expected to take place in Cork City.

It is being organised by the We Won’t Pay campaign, which was initiated by the Anti-Austerity Alliance after a public meeting attended by some 500 people in the city last week.

They have called on people to refuse to pay the water charges, and said any concessions in the budget will be more than cancelled out by water charges.

Bins will be provided to allow people to dump their Irish Water application packs. The protest starts on Winthrop St at 2pm.

Irish Water application packs are also expected to be dumped or burned at a protest march in Clonmel at 12pm tomorrow, organised in association with the South Tipp Against Water Charges movement.

“They can bill you as much as they want but you don’t have to pay them,” a spokesman said.

In south-east Clare, residents are leading protests against the installation of water meters ahead of a march in Ennis tomorrow.

Subcontractors acting on behalf of Irish Water were prevented or delayed from installing water meters in Killaloe, Parteen, and Meelock in Co Clare, as well as a number of housing estates in the Westbury housing development in Limerick.

Maurice Walsh, who lives in Clarisford, Killaloe, said the installation work was halted after residents requested contracts and consent forms.

According to Irish Water, public consent or a signed contract is not required.

David Houlihan, who stood in front of a digger to prevent water meter installation in Parteen earlier this week, said that, with all but two of the 20 houses in the estate against water meters, the stand-off was good humoured and the contractors left the estate at 10am without installing any meters.

Contractors were also prevented from installing meters in up to four estates in Westbury.

“People are already paying for water through general taxation,” said Mr Houlihan. “We don’t need to pay again. Where has the €1bn that was being spent providing a public water supply gone? It is time for people to take a stand against austerity taxes.” .

The Clare Says No to Water Charges group is expecting a large crowd at its protest, which starts at 1pm tomorrow from the O’Connell Monument.

Spokesman Paul Whitmore, who attended the demonstration in Dublin last week, said anger against water charges is increasing.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/water-charge-protests-begin-to-swell-to-a-flood-291775.html

Maybe Maryanne84 will set up and organise a counter-protest for south tipp.

_Kaiser_

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's a bit silly comparing it to motor tax. The figure for motor tax can be set arbitrarily. Irish Water have to cover the cost of supply and become self funding.

That's what you're picking out?

OK to clarify then...
The last government announced that they would be introducing a new tax system based on emissions (CO2) rather than engine size (CC). The stated aim they said was to reduce harmful emissions and get us all thinking about our usage. To incentivise people they introduced a scrappage scheme as well. They DID NOT come out and admit that this was just another way to boost VRT and VAT on new car sales and jobs for SIMI members.

(Seeing the parallels yet?)

Of course the plan worked too well.. car manufacturers adapted and everyone went out and bought shiny new BMW 520d's on the lowest tax band.

Result: Revenues fell, and the new government hiked the rates - just proving the lie about emissions/usage (or conservation in this context if you will)

The same will happen here. IW is a revenue exercise, a tax by another name (cloaked in conservationism and the notion of "fairness") - and it's certainly not about fixing our water supplies.

Edited to add: You also realise that a portion of Motor Tax includes Water Charges right? - from here:

On 19 December 1996, on the eve of general elections, the Minister for the Environment Brendan Howlin from the Labour Party of the Rainbow Government of Fine Gael–Labour Party–Democratic Left announced that the water charge was going to be replaced by a new system in which motor tax collected in each area would be the source for local council funding.

.. there's even a few familiar names in there too!

Little CuChulainn

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

That's what you're picking out?

OK to clarify then...
The last government announced that they would be introducing a new tax system based on emissions (CO2) rather than engine size (CC). The stated aim they said was to reduce harmful emissions and get us all thinking about our usage. To incentivise people they introduced a scrappage scheme as well. They DID NOT come out and admit that this was just another way to boost VRT and VAT on new car sales and jobs for SIMI members.

(Seeing the parallels yet?)

Of course the plan worked too well.. car manufacturers adapted and everyone went out and bought shiny new BMW 520d's on the lowest tax band.

Result: Revenues fell, and the new government hiked the rates - just proving the lie about emissions/usage (or conservation in this context if you will)

The same will happen here. IW is a revenue exercise, a tax by another name (cloaked in conservationism and the notion of "fairness") - and it's certainly not about fixing our water supplies.

Most of your post was speculation presented as fact but the bit about motor tax seemed to miss a big difference. Irish Water will have to balance the books and become self funding. They can't know how much to charge at this stage. That is why there is a provision for raising the prices which must be approved by the regulator. It's completely different to raising a tax on a luxury good.

Nobody doubts that Irish Water is set up to raise revenue, but the revenue it raises is for a particular purpose and remains within the company. In the absence of a national hypothecated tax system, it's the best way to ensure that money is collected for a specific purpose. It reduces the need for specialised staff in every local council and reduces the requirements on local budgets.

Guy:Incognito

gladrags wrote: »

Never never divulge your PPS # unless compelled .

Or if you need it to to deal with one of the companies/bodies the relevant people tell you can that Banjo string was handily linking to in his sig before he realised the link contradicted his claim.


At the end of the day your free to not give them your pps numbers if you dont want to, you just have to pay for all the water that you and your family use. Thats seems a fair enough system.

Maybe they should just take your word for it on how many kids are in the house etc? It's not a big stretch to think that there would be more allowances claimed for water for children than there are children in the state......


How come people have no issue paying for other natural rescources like oil and gas?Why should water be treated any differently than any other utility?

Banjo String

Nobody doubts that Irish Water is set up to raise revenue, but the revenue it raises is for a particular purpose and remains within the company .

See, this is the problem.

When a Govt has consistently lied to it's electorate in the past, they will understanbly be sceptical about any new charges and taxes being imposed on them.

Remind me where the money came from to set up Irish Water, and where that money was supposedly ring-fenced for?

As for some folk claiming the pps number can't be used to access your social/bank/pension/employment details due to Law.

Irish Water weren't even allowed to ask for your pps number up until a few months ago (by law).

Tbf to this Govt, one thing they have been extremely effective in, has been changing laws and legislation quick smart.

But always to their own benefit.

Banjo String

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Or if you need it to to deal with one of the companies/bodies the relevant people tell you can that Banjo string was handily linking to in his sig before he realised the link contradicted his claim.

Ah jaysus, scarlet, so I am lol.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

At the end of the day your free to not give them your pps numbers if you dont want to, you just have to pay for all the water that you and your family use. Thats seems a fair enough system.

I don't need any **free** allowance, or poxy tax credit for a company I will not be engaging with.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Maybe they should just take your word for it on how many kids are in the house etc? It's not a big stretch to think that there would be more allowances claimed for water for children than there are children in the state......

Maybe it's not a big stretch to imagine they could cross check a families child benefit payment, against numbers of children declared in the house.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How come people have no issue paying for other natural rescources like oil and gas?Why should water be treated any differently than any other utility?

Oil and gas is currently being paid for via vat, motor tax and income tax?

Guy:Incognito

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

3. This whole exercise has been designed as a revenue exercise to appease the EU/IMF, not fix our water supplies.

This whole exercise is to broaden a tax base that severly needs to be broadened so the impact of one income stream drying up doesnt have as disaterous an effect on the economy as before.

Fine, water was paid for from general taxation before, thats the past and we need to move on. As it stands there are 400,000 people on the dole, should the government say" sorry lads, you paid for your own **** before, no dole for you, we're not introducing any new spending"? Tax take has fallen way down and spending has gone up. As per the budget speech , we will be borrowing an estimated €5b next year, so probably more. We need to stop the borrowing as soon as possible to stop paying interest to run the country and get income levels up to pay for it directly. Water charges should have been push through decades ago but here we are and they should be implemented now.

Guy:Incognito

Banjo String wrote: »

Ah jaysus, scarlet, so I am lol.

Well I suppose trying to joke is closer to a response than ignoring it like last time.

Banjo String wrote: »

I don't need any **free** allowance, or poxy tax credit for a company I will not be engaging with.

Did you not say you dont get water from the mains or am I mixing you up? If not then they dont want your details anyway.

If you do then its convenient that youll engage enough to get water off them. Why not make a stand and disconnect yourself from the mains?

Did you pay for your water in Australia?

Banjo String

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Well I suppose trying to joke is closer to a response than ignoring it like last time.

I'm not really joking, I think your sarcasm electrodes might need jolted this morning.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Did you not say you dont get water from the mains or am I mixing you up? If not then they dont want your details anyway.

No, I never said that.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If you do then its convenient that youll engage enough to get water off them. Why not make a stand and disconnect yourself from the mains?

Apparently they'll reduce my pressure when I don't pay.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Did you pay for your water in Australia?

No.

That's besides the point anyway. The Aussies aren't paying three times for their water.

Little CuChulainn

Banjo String wrote: »

See, this is the problem.

When a Govt has consistently lied to it's electorate in the past, they will understanbly be sceptical about any new charges and taxes being imposed on them.

Remind me where the money came from to set up Irish Water, and where that money was supposedly ring-fenced for?

As for some folk claiming the pps number can't be used to access your social/bank/pension/employment details due to Law.

Irish Water weren't even allowed to ask for your pps number up until a few months ago (by law).

Tbf to this Govt, one thing they have been extremely effective in, has been changing laws and legislation quick smart.

But always to their own benefit.

You've forgotten that it is set up as a company. You can invest money in a company but afaik you can't just take it out. It has to be paid as a dividend which would be recorded.

You still haven't said how your ppsn number gives access to all your financial records.

Guy:Incognito

Banjo String wrote: »

I'm not really joking, I think your sarcasm electrodes might need jolted this morning.

Still never answered it though. Theres a theme there. Either ignore something that doesnt suit you or make flippant remarks till the person stops asking you.

Banjo String wrote: »

That's besides the point anyway. The Aussies aren't paying three times for their water.

So should the government just draw a line at a point in time and say "right, thats it, nothing else gets paid for because we already pay for stuff"?

Solcial welfare can be on a first come first served basis ever week. 100,000 get paid, the rest, sorry try again next week. Any new Gardai or teachers have to hope its their week to be picked at random to be paid maybe?

Banjo String

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Still never answered it though. Theres a theme there. Either ignore something that doesnt suit you or make flippant remarks till the person stops asking you.

What haven't I answered

There was a question there somewhere?

I can predict you're going to get me to engage in a dick swinging, circle jerk-fest this morning again.

/puts on kettle.

_Kaiser_

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

This whole exercise is to broaden a tax base that severly needs to be broadened so the impact of one income stream drying up doesnt have as disaterous an effect on the economy as before.

Fine, water was paid for from general taxation before, thats the past and we need to move on. As it stands there are 400,000 people on the dole, should the government say" sorry lads, you paid for your own **** before, no dole for you, we're not introducing any new spending"? Tax take has fallen way down and spending has gone up. As per the budget speech , we will be borrowing an estimated €5b next year, so probably more. We need to stop the borrowing as soon as possible to stop paying interest to run the country and get income levels up to pay for it directly. Water charges should have been push through decades ago but here we are and they should be implemented now.

- Water charges were pushed through decades ago via motor tax and other means (I don't see my motor tax reducing in-line with the water charges incidentally)

- It's a fact of the current economic model that most western countries operate to that running a deficit is the norm. The deficit of a country isn't like your credit card bill or overdraft. Irish debt currently stand at 126% of GNP - that will never be repaid... yet we're supposedly in recovery?!

- Tax take has gone down because the government has failed to reform the Social Welfare, Public Sector or even things like Childcare in any meaningful wsy.. none of that requires more money - it just requires a political will to use the assets we have in a more effective and productive manner. But when you have a parliament and civil service full of guys and girls who have made it a life-long, inter-generational career it's no surprise that this has never happened. Punishing Paddy and Mary Bloggs won't fix this either.

KERSPLAT!

Banjo String wrote: »

I'm not really joking, I think your sarcasm electrodes might need jolted this morning.


No, I never said that.



Apparently they'll disconnect me when I don't pay.



No.

That's besides the point anyway. The Aussies aren't paying three times for their water.

Apparently they'll disconnect you? Any links for this from an official source? Pretty sure IW and the government have said they can't and won't disconnect anyone for non payment

Guy:Incognito

Banjo String wrote: »

Apparently they'll disconnect me when I don't pay.

.

Apparently according to who? Its been said from way out that supply would be turned down, not off. But you know that.

Doesnt stop the protesters suddenly finding new revelations that they cant switch off your water and flooding facebook with posts full of "look, theyve admitted it".

It should be treated like any other utility and knocked off if it isnt paid for though.

Guy:Incognito

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

- It's a fact of the current economic model that most western countries operate to that running a deficit is the norm. The deficit of a country isn't like your credit card bill or overdraft. Irish debt currently stand at 126% of GNP - that will never be repaid... yet we're supposedly in recovery?!
.

We dont need to pay off the debt as such, just not keep heaping it up. Is it not basic enough common sense that paying for a regular bill from the cash you have is better than borrowing it over a term longer than the period to the next bill meaning it can only ever spiral. We're basically borrowing off Wonga long term for short term issues.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

- Tax take has gone down because the government has failed to reform the Social Welfare, Public Sector or even things like Childcare in any meaningful wsy.. none of that requires more money - it just requires a political will to use the assets we have in a more effective and productive manner. But when you have a parliament and civil service full of guys and girls who have made it a life-long, inter-generational career it's no surprise that this has never happened. Punishing Paddy and Mary Bloggs won't fix this either.

Has it not got anything to do with 400,000 people movign from paying tax to recieving welfare

Look at what happens when anythign is done to PS pay or social welfare rates , its protests and "the most vulnerable is society"TM being downtrodden by the elites again.

But apparently those are wrong to give out but give out about water charegs is good?

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

- Water charges were pushed through decades ago via motor tax and other means (I don't see my motor tax reducing in-line with the water charges incidentally).

Plenty of taxes were cut in the good times, where were the protests to stop that?



Why should water only be paid for by taxpayers btw when every person in the country uses it?

dxhound2005

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

Apparently they'll disconnect you? Any links for this from an official source? Pretty sure IW and the government have said they can't and won't disconnect anyone for non payment

Nobody will be cut off. But someone who has a debt can be pursued.

4) Where a customer fails to pay a charge under this section, it shall be recoverable by Irish Water as a simple contract debt in any court of competent jurisdiction.

Of course I know what the response will be. If if if millions of us don't pay they can't take us all to court. And they gave me no contract, I don't have to pay. I'm already paying twice.

Come back in a years' time and we will see how this has worked out.

Banjo String

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

Apparently they'll disconnect you? Any links for this from an official source? Pretty sure IW and the government have said they can't and won't disconnect anyone for non payment

Sorry, I meant reduce my pressure so as I won't be availing of their services. . (I've been preaching on about it long enough, I thought it'd be obvious)

Guy:Incognito

Banjo String wrote: »

What haven't I answered

There was a question there somewhere?

I can predict you're going to get me to engage in a dick swinging, circle jerk-fest this morning again.

/puts on kettle.

When you were called on your sig that says the government said you shouldnt give your ppsn to anyone while providing a link that included a list of companies /bodies that you could give it too (which included Irish water)

Knight who says Meh

Just a wee anecdote unrelated to any other post.
I live in a rural area and my meter was installed some years back...or so I thought.
I went out to investigate it for the first time this morning and all that's there is the plastic WM sign..no hatch cover...no meter.
I contacted the guy I bought the house from. Our pipe line crosses the bothareen about 500 meters down from our house (it comes off a water scheme spur) and comes to the back of the house across a field.
So they (IW)simple stuck a sign on the side of the road though there is no water piping there at all!!!!!!
How many performance related bonuses again?

Banjo String

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

When you were called on your sig that says the government said you shouldnt give your ppsn to anyone while providing a link that included a list of companies /bodies that you could give it too (which included Irish water)

What part of that is a question?

Guy:Incognito

Banjo String wrote: »

Sorry, I meant reduce my pressure

Course you did :rolleyes: