***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Tony EH

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Banks can be and do get sold. Whoever buys a bank buys the details of the account holders.

Those details are not treated like assets though and cannot be shared with other parties.

IW have also stated that they can sell these to interested parties outside the EU.

Any way it's cut, it not something that people should be handing over to a company such as IW..

Guy:Incognito

Tony EH wrote: »

Those details are not treated like assets though and cannot be shared with other parties.

IW have also stated that they can sell these to interested parties outside the EU.

Any way it's cut, it not something that people should be handing over to a company such as IW..

Have they? Cos thats the opposite of what the woman on Pat Kenny said.

_Kaiser_

Banjo String wrote: »

They know that already Kaiser, I dont understand why they are claiming to be so naive tbh.

I'm guessing because either some are only half-reading the posts or cherry-picking to try and make their (thus flawed) point

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

No you cannot do that stuff with only a pps number. You need photo ID to claim welfare and open bank accounts. Your driving licence has nothing to do with your ppsn. And you need more than a ppsn to claim medical benefits.

Deleted User wrote: »

You also need a utility bill, like ESB, Phone, Registration acknowledgement from LPT, Household Charge, Irish Water ......

Indeed... That's why I said...

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

A PPS is a valuable (but no not the only) piece of the puzzle if you want to commit identity fraud, but it's certainly not required for paying a utility bill!

Read the whole post next time maybe.

Banjo String

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Were the ESB ever able to deduct bills from source.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I'll have to read it another few times but I'm fairly sure that isnt an answer to anything I asked.

Ok, here's another angle at it, and I suppose I'm answering a question with a question, but it's entirely relevant, (I'm sure you won't agree though)

When was the last time ESB wanted to charge me EXTRA for refusing to hand over my Pps number.

Oh wait. ESB never asked for my Pps Num, nor have any other utility company, so I'm at a loss as to how ESB could deduct at source.

dxhound2005

Tony EH wrote: »

Those details are not treated like assets though and cannot be shared with other parties.

IW have also stated that they can sell these to interested parties outside the EU.

Any way it's cut, it not something that people should be handing over to a company such as IW..

What would the going rate for a PPS number being sold to someone outside the EU be? Just the PPS number on it's own. What parties would be interested in such a proposition?

Tony EH

Go and find out yourself.

Data mining and information on people is a very lucrative venture.

Little CuChulainn

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm guessing because either some are only half-reading the posts or cherry-picking to try and make their (thus flawed) point





Indeed... That's why I said...



Read the whole post next time maybe.

I did read the whole post. You are effectively admitting the ppsn is useless on its own. It's like claiming that by giving you my email address I give you access to all my emails and all the things I get emailed about. To stick to the analogy you and Banjo are excluding the whole password bit of it.

Banjo String

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What would the going rate for a PPS number being sold to someone outside the EU be? Just the PPS number on it's own. What parties would be interested in such a proposition?

Call up some credit unions in the Midlands and limerick areas, maybe they'll tell you the reason and what rate they paid for some people's pps numbers.

The Office of the Data Protection Commissioner (DPC) is poised to probe dozens of new credit unions over the suspected use of rogue private investigators, the Irish Independent has learned.

Assistant Data Protection Commissioner Tony Delaney suspects that other credit unions may have paid for addresses and PPS numbers obtained through illegal means by so-called tracing agents.

In a landmark case this week, two rogue private investigators were found guilty of stealing data, which belonged to unsuspecting credit union customers, from the Department of Social Protection and the HSE.

The court heard that the agents used "subterfuge" and "blagging tactics" to falsely obtain the information from the State bodies.



The information was then passed on to seven credit unions in return for a fee.

The firm at the centre of the scandal, MCK Rentals Ltd, pleaded guilty to breaching data protection laws at Bray District Court on Monday.

Company directors Margaret Stuart, (56), of Newtownmountkennedy, Co Wicklow, and Wendy Martin, (45), of Ballybrack, Co Dublin, were fined a total of €10,500 for illegally obtaining information in breach of the Data Protection Act.

Mr Delaney, who described the women's actions as "shameful and shocking", is now expected to widen his net beyond his initial cluster of credit unions, which were based in Limerick and the midlands.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/more-credit-unions-face-data-probe-by-watchdog-30647441.html

Satriale

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Its not telling lies to get water, its telling lies to not pay for water your getting. You can use and pay for all the water you like without giving your pps number, thats a choice your free to make.

So why will no one have issues handing over PPS numbers a couple of years from now?

Semantics.

I'm not saying they wouldnt have difficulties, but if it hadnt been a part of the set up IW might have coasted on in(foot in the door anyway). As it stands it looks to be in serious difficulty now and like it or not the PPS number debacle is a part of that.

Do you really think 4 million people should have to prove they are not liars and thieves to a utility company that is selling them their own resource through their own infrastructure .
All because a few chancers take the p1ss?

_Kaiser_

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I did read the whole post. You are effectively admitting the ppsn is useless on its own. It's like claiming that by giving you my email address I give you access to all my emails and all the things I get emailed about. To stick to the analogy you and Banjo are excluding the whole password bit of it.

It may not be much use on it's own but you can't do any of the things I mentioned without one either and THAT is where its value lies

_Kaiser_

Tony EH wrote: »

Go and find out yourself.

Data mining and information on people is a very lucrative venture.

Completely.. and yet I guarantee that if I was so inclined, I could go have a look in the shared green bin out the back of the apartment here and get:

- Names and addresses
- Account numbers
- Mobile numbers
- Probably PPS numbers as well

All within 5 minutes! :eek: If I was a criminal with the will and resources to make use of all that I'd be ready to go...

.. which is why all my personal letters/statements are shredded and disposed if seperately

Iwasfrozen

Banjo String wrote: »

Call up some credit unions in the Midlands and limerick areas, maybe they'll tell you the reason and what rate they paid for some people's pps numbers.



http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/more-credit-unions-face-data-probe-by-watchdog-30647441.html

Am I missing something? Why would a Credit Union want a person's PPS number?

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

Those details are not treated like assets though and cannot be shared with other parties.

IW have also stated that they can sell these to interested parties outside the EU.

Any way it's cut, it not something that people should be handing over to a company such as IW..

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Have they? Cos thats the opposite of what the woman on Pat Kenny said.

"Data that we collect from you may be transferred to a destination outside the European Economic Area ("EEA")"

http://www.water.ie/data-protection-notice/

"The woman" on Pat Kenny is indicative of the "gobshites" that have been placed in charge of this most valuable asset. She probably hasn't the first clue, but is an FG buddy trotted out to parrot the required bullshit her position demands.

Why anybody would want to hand over information to these people is incredible.

FREETV

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK, let's simplify this a bit and step back from all the Freeman/PPS usage/Contact stuff for a minute...

The bottom line is this..

Irish Water has already shown itself to be incompetent, run by incompetent wasteful hangers-on, and incapable of getting it's straightforward (if you believe the pro-camp here) message across without making a mess of it - this week's drama around Landlords v Tenant responsibilties is just the last example.

Whether the pro-side like it or not, IW was set (until Tuesday anyway) to double or triple charge us for a service we already pay for.
Only because of the march last weekend did Enda and co panic and throw in tax credits in an attempt to soften the blow while simultaneously clapping themselves on the back over people being on average €8 a week "better off" :rolleyes:

However, once/if IW do get their "customer" database you can be sure of a few things...

1. The prices will only go up. It has feck all to do with conservation either - it's already been stated and agreed that IW can increase prices if revenue fell as a result of people watching their usage. Look at the post-08 Motor Tax situation for precedent - people went out and bought low-emission BMWs so they hiked those rates 2 years ago as well.

2. The infrastructure won't significantly change. You have people who haven't been able to drink the water that comes out of the tap for years, or have to soften or otherwise treat the water so it doesn't wreck their appliances - and these people are STILL expected to sign up and cough up unless they're on an "approved" boil notice list?

Ultimately the work will still be the responsibility of the same people who've been looking after it till now - the only place the extra money will go is into the pockets of the executives and bonuses for the staff for doing a job that didn't need to be done.

3. This whole exercise has been designed as a revenue exercise to appease the EU/IMF, not fix our water supplies. It's the normal Irish approach of doing something without ACTUALLY doing something about the real problems, and setting it up as a job creation scheme for the connected. Once they have their database, and we get past GE 2016, you can be certain that IW (if it still exists) will be privatised and sold to someone like O'Brien (FG have a track-record in this after all and the likely result of the GE is probably a FF/FG coalition because Paddy and Mary won't objectively consider anything else - not that there's much to choose from of course!)

4. The vast majority of people who have a problem with all this are ordinary people who have already been stretched enough by FG/LAB's cronyism and incompetence to say nothing of FF's legacy.

Most people don't give a fook about Freeman shyte, or PPS numbers - but they realise that if they hand over this information (cynically positioned as an "application pack") then they are only sealing the fate of water provisioning in Ireland as well as adding another bill to their list while getting nothing back for it (8 quid a week and a 100 Euro tax credit - if you're working - won't go very far).

More than that - people have FINALLY had enough of Enda and Co's cynical cash grabs. FG and LAB were elected on a campaign of promised reform, transparency and a "new way" of doing business. Instead it's been "business as usual" at the top - indeed, you could say that FG/LAB are actually WORSE as at least with FF, you know what you're getting!

Irish Water is simply the last straw for many people - and about time too really!

The best post yet and I agree with everything you said and the Irish people must rise up, march, refuse to pay for toxic hard water and kick the corrupt Muppets in the Dail in to touch by voting them all out in the next General Election.
They have made mugs of the public for long enough and need to be shown that we are in charge and not them.
People power and strength in numbers!

Knight who says Meh

FREETV wrote: »

The best post yet and I agree with everything you said and the Irish people must rise up, march, refuse to pay for toxic hard water and kick the corrupt Muppets in the Dail in to touch by voting them all out in the next General Election.
They have made mugs of the public for long enough and need to be shown that we are in charge and not them.
People power and strength in numbers!

And vote who in?
Cant believe Im actually considering SF but if not then who else?

dxhound2005

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Am I missing something? Why would a Credit Union want a person's PPS number?

Bit of mystery that one. Apparently some of the previous generation of tax evaders and assorted other criminal types were found to be using the banks and credit unions to launder their ill gotten gains. In the good old days anyone could walk into the bank or post office and open up an account, no questions asked. So new legislation had to be brought in forcing financial institutions to make any new prospective customers establish the identity of the client and verify their address. And to require proof of their PPS number, with a P60 or similar.

The genie is well and truly out of the bottle when not only is this the law but it is also the law that landlords have to gather PPS numbers from tenants and Bus Eireann require parents to supply their children's PPS numbers for the school transport scheme. If Bus Eireann is ever privatised think of the awful consequence which could ensue. Not to mention the dozens of other bodies which insist on getting PPS numbers. And DSW themselves, they generate the blooming things and God knows what someone in there could do with them.

Except that nobody bats an eyelid until it comes to a political campaign to try to defy the law and let selfish people keep their money in their pockets. Then PPS numbers are super important and must be kept from IW at all costs.

Banjo String

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Am I missing something? Why would a Credit Union want a person's PPS number?

I'm wondering about their intentions there also tbh.

But, there you have it. It was widely known to the public only a week or so again (i think it might even have been mentioned in this thread), that in the midst of IW (listed as a private company) demanding PPS numbers, there was a news article about a credit union using private investigators to provide them with same, for a fee.

Proof that they can, and do be used for possibly sinister motives.

FREETV

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

And vote who in?
Cant believe Im actually considering SF but if not then who else?

There is really nobody else who will get the required number of seats only a combination of Independents, Sinn Fein and the AAA perhaps.
The other main parties will just continue to bring us more pain!
Only a Masochist would vote for the same crowd again.
The whole political system is rife with corruption and mismanagement!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/water-charge-protests-begin-to-swell-to-a-flood-291775.html

The marches need to start to be held outside the Dail when the crooks are in session in the Dail for there to be maximum effect!

dxhound2005

FREETV wrote: »

There is really nobody else who will get the required number of seats only a combination of Independents, Sinn Fein and the AAA perhaps.
The other main parties will just continue to bring us more pain!
Only a Masochist would vote for the same crowd again.
The whole political system is rife with corruption and mismanagement!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/water-charge-protests-begin-to-swell-to-a-flood-291775.html

How do you know this 18 months away from the election?

dxhound2005

Tony EH wrote: »

"Data that we collect from you may be transferred to a destination outside the European Economic Area ("EEA")"

http://www.water.ie/data-protection-notice/

"The woman" on Pat Kenny is indicative of the "gobshites" that have been placed in charge of this most valuable asset. She probably hasn't the first clue, but is an FG buddy trotted out to parrot the required bullshit her position demands.

Why anybody would want to hand over information to these people is incredible.

I'd say the non-payers and the thugs intimidating the workers might be more concerned about this part of the Data Protection policy.

Irish Water may also disclose customer data if it is under a duty to disclose or share customer data in order to comply with any legal obligation, or in order to protect the rights, property, or safety of Irish Water, its customers or others. Irish Water will also disclose customer data if it believes in good faith that it is required to disclose it in order to comply with any applicable law, a summons, a search warrant, a court or regulatory order, or other valid legal process.

Banjo String

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How do you know this 18 months away from the election?

That is very optimistic tbh.

If Irish Water is scrapped (and every day, that's looking more likely) a general election will surely not be far behind.

Satriale

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Bit of mystery that one. Apparently some of the previous generation of tax evaders and assorted other criminal types were found to be using the banks and credit unions to launder their ill gotten gains. In the good old days anyone could walk into the bank or post office and open up an account, no questions asked. So new legislation had to be brought in forcing financial institutions to make any new prospective customers establish the identity of the client and verify their address. And to require proof of their PPS number, with a P60 or similar.

The genie is well and truly out of the bottle when not only is this the law but it is also the law that landlords have to gather PPS numbers from tenants and Bus Eireann require parents to supply their children's PPS numbers for the school transport scheme. If Bus Eireann is ever privatised think of the awful consequence which could ensue. Not to mention the dozens of other bodies which insist on getting PPS numbers. And DSW themselves, they generate the blooming things and God knows what someone in there could do with them.

Except that nobody bats an eyelid until it comes to a political campaign to try to defy the law and let selfish people keep their money in their pockets. Then PPS numbers are super important and must be kept from IW at all costs.

Irish water aside, what kind of an eejit wants to be reduced to a number? If the administration and red tape that revolves around assuming all people are always dishonest was gone it wouldnt cost half as much to run this country. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

dxhound2005

Banjo String wrote: »

That is very optimistic tbh.

If Irish Water is scrapped (and every day, that's looking more likely) a general election will surely not be far behind.

Nostrodamus lives.

FREETV

A lot of people are sending the packs back to Irish Water in the post with Return To Sender No Contract No Consent written on the front of the envelopes.

Keep sending them back that way. Well done, I am proud of you all for sticking up for yourselves!

Banjo String

FREETV wrote: »

A lot of people are sending the packs back to Irish Water in the post with Return To Sender No Contract No Consent written on the front of the envelopes.

Keep sending them back that way. Well done, I am proud of you all for sticking up for yourselves!

The campaign to send them back with bogus information will be much more time consuming imo.

I already sent mine back before I heard of that one unfortunately.

emo72

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

And vote who in?
Cant believe Im actually considering SF but if not then who else?

Goes to show how dysfunctional the political system is that no one is willing to vote for mainstream parties. I will be voting for SF, I don't have a problem with them now.

dxhound2005

Banjo String wrote: »

The campaign to send them back with bogus information will be much more time consuming imo.

I already sent mine back before I heard of that one unfortunately.

I heard that IW is going to supply bogus water to those people.

Banjo String

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I heard that IW is going to supply bogus water to those people.

I heard the people who were always supplying the water will still be supplying it, for the next twelve years.

Irish Water will only be supplying bills.

Estimated bills. :cool:

Tony EH

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'd say the non-payers and the thugs intimidating the workers might be more concerned about this part of the Data Protection policy.

Irish Water may also disclose customer data if it is under a duty to disclose or share customer data in order to comply with any legal obligation, or in order to protect the rights, property, or safety of Irish Water, its customers or others. Irish Water will also disclose customer data if it believes in good faith that it is required to disclose it in order to comply with any applicable law, a summons, a search warrant, a court or regulatory order, or other valid legal process.

EVERYBODY should be concerned as to where their private information ends up.

If you don't think it's important. List you real name, current address, dependents and your PPS number below...















Go on, we're waiting.

FREETV

FREETV wrote: »

A lot of people are sending the packs back to Irish Water in the post with Return To Sender No Contract No Consent written on the front of the envelopes.

Keep sending them back that way. Well done, I am proud of you all for sticking up for yourselves!

Makes it easier for IW to send it back to you!