***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

waking dreams

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It adds up to a broad tax base that isn't subject to sudden collapse when the **** hits the fan.

When everything is paid for with income taxes what happens when the amount of income tax payers drops by say , 400,000 and the amount of people needing social welfare goes up by a not coincidental similar number?

I work in the business of analytics and something like an increase in the numbers needed for social welfare is something that we could see coming with plenty of time to adjust income to facilitate the shift.

dxhound2005

Irish Steve wrote: »

Just been reading the Kerrigan article.


The example mentioned a few messages ago is an example of the issues, 720 Litres a day being lost (probably through a leak), and no one knew until the meter was fitted, now they do know, and that is only one house, on a small bore pipe.

Repeat that scenario across the country, and it's easy to see how 40% of the treated water is being lost through leaks, and that's only on small bore pipes, the same issue applies to large bore main feed pipes as well, though the flow from them tends to become apparent due to the volume of water that is lost.

Forgive my ignorance but I thought the 40% was lost before the water reached the customers premises. It says so in the papers so it is probably wrong. But anyway.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/national-shortage-41-of-treated-water-lost-to-leaks-248039.html

As hundreds of thousands of homes in Dublin and surrounding counties endured their first night with reduced or no water supplies, the Commission for Energy Regulation confirmed 41% of treated water nationally is leaking from the system before it reaches the customer.

That percentage is one of the highest of any developed country — it is almost twice the level of leakage in England and Wales. In Germany, just 7% is wasted, while in the Netherlands it is as low as 6%.

Guy:Incognito

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think you'll find that not everyone on Motors supports such a system at all and the ones who are advocating it are those who want to run a big-engined weekend car for the most part. Nothing to do with being "fair" at all - they just want someone else to pay for it.

(Said as someone who pays 422 every 3 months to tax his car - but that's my choice!)

Those motorists who rely on their car to get to work and who have been pushed out into the sticks in the last property boom (and it's happening again) have a very different opinion.

A better idea would be a "weekend rate" as well as a monthly payment option and an ending of the unfair penalties you pay if you can't stump it up annually, but that'd require a bit of cop-on by the civil servants and enforcement by the girls n girls currently acting as a private security force for IW.

I'd be willing to bet theres at least some overlap tbh. plenty of people think of all of these things as separate in that they want everything to work out best for them but the reality all forms of government income is linked . Books need to be balanced.

All my most recent cars have been 2l and over. I commute a decent distance (though a toll too) so I'm not on the outside of all of this.

Guy:Incognito

waking dreams wrote: »

I work in the business of analytics and something like an increase in the numbers needed for social welfare is something that we could see coming with plenty of time to adjust income to facilitate the shift.

adjust to facilitate it by doing things like broadening a tax base?

what would you have done to cope with the 800,000 swing in numbers?

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I thought the 40% was lost before the water reached the customers premises. It says so in the papers so it is probably wrong. But anyway.

[/I]

I really like that you know the papers are nothing more than propaganda. It seems we might have more in common than I first thought. This is very good news.:)

waking dreams

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

adjust to facilitate it by doing things like broadening a tax base?

what would you have done to cope with the 800,000 swing in numbers?

No, you keep the income the same and adjust what it is being used for to make up for the increasing numbers on social welfare. Take into account I am not in charge of the country and that our Government have destroyed the whole idea of income tax through greed. Numbers never lie. That is a fact. The income tax system is brilliant. If used correctly.

Guy:Incognito

Wurly wrote: »

What would make the sh1t hit the fan? Are you basing the '**** hitting the fan' on the recent collapse? I think it's fair to say how that happened. The banks and vested interests, I would suggest.?

It's all very easy to just blame the bankers . I really thought we'd moved on from this simplistic view. Everyone involved played a part. People wanted taxes lowed, people wanted more and more money to buy houses and banks took easy way and just gave it to them. To just blame one lot and absolve everyone else is short sighted,

Again though, I don't see why paying for water is such a big bee in your bonnet when the big cloud hanging over all your posts seems to be an issue with how things are run generally, so why not focus your energy on doing something about that?

Taking it on its own, why do other countries that we like to use as examples for various things when it s suits like Germany and the UK amongst others pay for water and we shouldn't? The German economy is used as away to do things so if that's the case then you should be ok with paying for water.

Irish Steve

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I thought the 40% was lost before the water reached the customers premises. It says so in the papers so it is probably wrong. But anyway.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/national-shortage-41-of-treated-water-lost-to-leaks-248039.html

As hundreds of thousands of homes in Dublin and surrounding counties endured their first night with reduced or no water supplies, the Commission for Energy Regulation confirmed 41% of treated water nationally is leaking from the system before it reaches the customer.

That percentage is one of the highest of any developed country — it is almost twice the level of leakage in England and Wales. In Germany, just 7% is wasted, while in the Netherlands it is as low as 6%.

This 720 litres per day is being lost before the customer's premises, in that it's not visible anywhere within the house, it just happens to be after it's gone through the meter, and there will be plenty more similar cases, as well as the massive number of larger leaks in the main distribution network, all of which need to be resolved sooner rather than later to reduce the cost of treatment, and the cost of building extra treatment facilities, and new distribution mains to get the water where it's needed.

I wouldn't be overly happy about the Bord Gais record in this area either, I have clear memories of walking along the south side of the canal in the late 80's, and passing very large holes in the road, surrounded by 40 gallon oil drums as they'd run out of cones, the holes were full of water (close to the canal, and lots of rain,) and there was gas bubbling out of every one of them due to leaks in the system as a result of the change from (wet) town gas to (dry) natural gas, which dried out the joints, so they started to leak, in some cases disastrously.

They didn't have the resources of people or leak fix kits to fix them at the time, so the attitude was leave them open to the air so the gas doesn't build up to a dangerous concentration anywhere. it was months before they were fixed and refilled, and they should have known about the problem, as the UK gas industry had seen exactly the same problems there when they moved to natural gas a good few years earlier.

Guy:Incognito

waking dreams wrote: »

No, you keep the income the same and adjust what it is being used for to make up for the increasing numbers on social welfare. Take into account I am not in charge of the country and that our Government have destroyed the whole idea of income tax through greed. Numbers never lie. That is a fact. The income tax system is brilliant. If used correctly.

So just keep jacking up income tax? How is that a fair system? Keep punishing the people that manage to hold on to jobs? If you need to you can adjust income and expendature by making lots of smaller changes within the multitude of different income streams.

I'm really failing to see how everyone paying for certain things is not abetter system.

Wurly

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's all very easy to just blame the bankers . I really thought we'd moved on from this simplistic view. Everyone involved played a part. People wanted taxes lowed, people wanted more and more money to buy houses and banks took easy way and just gave it to them. To just blame one lot and absolve everyone else is short sighted,

Okay this is such a huge subject. I'll attempt to summarise it. Apologies if I make unclear in any way.

The bubble was created. We were sold ideas about home ownership via the media and suddenly it was the 'thing' to do. The banks just happened to provide 100% mortgages at that time. We were sold an idea of lavish lifestyles, again fuelled by the media so that we would go out and consume more and more. We were told it would be okay. Any worries were massaged by the government. And then the arse fell out of it.

This is what worries me. We are seen as cash cows. We are sold a notion of consumerism. You see it everywhere. From beauty products to cars to dining. Most people follow the status quo and the powers that be know this. So they use it to manipulate us. We are all being manipulated. Your TV is a huge culprit of this.

All of that money was used to serve the elite. And when everything went t1ts up, it wasn't the elite that suffered. It was designed that way. It was never going to last forever. How could it? But we were told it would.

So the ordinary people paid while the rich got richer.

Please lets not blame people who are legitimately doing their best with the information that they have been given.

Let's look to the real problem - the people in charge of the whole fiasco.

Again though, I don't see why paying for water is such a big bee in your bonnet when the big cloud hanging over all your posts seems to be an issue with how things are run generally, so why not focus your energy on doing something about that?

Because this is symptomatic of something much larger. If we accept these water charges, where does it actually end? Do you not realise how much we are actually being charged just to live a daily life? Even if that is justified by some, how can you justify this situation with so much waste going on as well?

Taking it on its own, why do other countries that we like to use as examples for various things when it s suits like Germany and the UK amongst others pay for water and we shouldn't? The German economy is used as away to do things so if that's the case then you should be ok with paying for water.

And around the merry-go-round we go. Because I am already being charged for water. That's the point. Why a second charge?

dxhound2005

Wurly wrote: »

I really like that you know the papers are nothing more than propaganda. It seems we might have more in common than I first thought. This is very good news.:)

My first post this morning was in response to a scare story in today's papers.

I have asked the question before why News International journalists in this country are getting a free pass from their media colleagues when their counterparts in the UK are being prosecuted. In relation to corruption of police officers and other public officials by News International paying them for stories.

Here they have a direct line into the Gardai and GSOC for stories but nobody raises the obvious question of what money is changing hands. Off topic and that is all I will be writing on the matter here.

waking dreams

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's all very easy to just blame the bankers . I really thought we'd moved on from this simplistic view. Everyone involved played a part. People wanted taxes lowed, people wanted more and more money to buy houses and banks took easy way and just gave it to them. To just blame one lot and absolve everyone else is short sighted,

Again though, I don't see why paying for water is such a big bee in your bonnet when the big cloud hanging over all your posts seems to be an issue with how things are run generally, so why not focus your energy on doing something about that?

Taking it on its own, why do other countries that we like to use as examples for various things when it s suits like Germany and the UK amongst others pay for water and we shouldn't? The German economy is used as away to do things so if that's the case then you should be ok with paying for water.

I am not involved in German Politics nor do I want to be, however looking at a country that played such a big part in both World Wars can be fascinating. I'd say it is safe to say that Germany has learned its lesson. Considering all the sanctions placed post both World Wars. From the outside looking in they have a stable economy. Due to lessons learned I'd imagine. Ireland is a different fish altogether. The German tax system is far superior to ours. We have clowns ruining and running our system. IW is a perfect example of how they where told to implement a further tax by the IMF, but our big ugly dumb clown like Government made a hames of it. I would also say that the IMF are in the ears of Enda and his clowns regarding how they handled the tax. Considering the Country are taking to the streets and making a fuss about it. And rightfully so. I will certainly be showing my face on November 1st.

waking dreams

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So just keep jacking up income tax? How is that a fair system? Keep punishing the people that manage to hold on to jobs? If you need to you can adjust income and expendature by making lots of smaller changes within the multitude of different income streams.

I'm really failing to see how everyone paying for certain things is not abetter system.

I never mentioned anything about increasing the income tax. That dosent need to happen once the income tax is spent correctly and wisely. Simple as that really.

dxhound2005

Income tax and all taxes are a great idea if they work right. But selfish people make a career of trying to dodge them. Revenue have brought some of them into line. People can't escape utility charges and while they can understate the value of their property they can be caught out for the underpayment of property tax whenever it is valued at sale or probate. And property tax and utility charges suffer less from fluctuations in the economic cycle.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/

Guy:Incognito

waking dreams wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about increasing the income tax. That dosent need to happen once the income tax is spent correctly and wisely. Simple as that really.

How do you "keep the income the same" when theres 400,000 less people paying in to it without raising taxes? The alternative is lower expenditure, yes? So then you have people giving out about cuts.
Isnt that the austerity that all these independants are running their campaigns on is about?
So now you've cut out the waste and everything is running efficiently, now what happens when a recession hits and loads of people are out of work? What else do you cut?

There still hasn't been a clear reason why everyone shouldn't pay for the amount of water they use rather than low users subsidising wastefull people

waking dreams

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How do you "keep the income the same" when theres 400,000 less people paying in to it without raising taxes?

I cant devise a plan to sort the Irish economy out right now in a single post over a cuppa Joe at my kitchen table. However I do know that there are people capable of doing just that. You are looking at the problem that was created, not at what created the problem. If like minded people where "in charge" (for lack of a better term) of our Tax that spike in social welfare wouldnt have happened.

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Income tax and all taxes are a great idea if they work right. But selfish people make a career of trying to dodge them.

I completely agree with you. The most selfish people you will see are the people with shed loads of money.

It's not the ordinary joe that is the problem here. If people keep seeing fat cats entitled to huge tax breaks and pensions, do you not think this will affect society as a whole? People will begin to think, well f*ck this, if they can get tax breaks, i'm gonna do a few nixers on the side. Why should it be one rule for them and another for us?

So the problem started with them. They created the problem. People felt aggrieved and started doing the same thing.

But because these f*cktards see themselves as so untouchable, they propagandise a notion that it's the people on social welfare that are the problem. So now people think - well, why should that guy get social welfare, when i've to work me bollix off on a 12 hour shift?

I totally get this. I really, really do.

But if we fight against each other, what does it actually achieve? The selfish guys at the top are still creaming it. And we're doing nothing except angrily fighting with each other via keyboards.

dxhound2005

Wurly wrote: »

I completely agree with you. The most selfish people you will see are the people with shed loads of money.

It's not the ordinary joe that is the problem here. If people keep seeing fat cats entitled to huge tax breaks and pensions, do you not think this will affect society as a whole? People will begin to think, well f*ck this, if they can get tax breaks, i'm gonna do a few nixers on the side. Why should it be one rule for them and another for us?

So the problem started with them. They created the problem. People felt aggrieved and started doing the same thing.

But because these f*cktards see themselves as so untouchable, they propagandise a notion that it's the people on social welfare that are the problem. So now people think - well, why should that guy get social welfare, when i've to work me bollix off on a 12 hour shift?

I totally get this. I really, really do.

But if we fight against each other, what does it actually achieve? The selfish guys at the top are still creaming it. And we're doing nothing except angrily fighting with each other via keyboards.

It's just that always and everywhere, all forms of economic activity and all economic assests have always been taxed, in organised societies. Only in Ireland was the notion dreamt up that private property and local services would be tax free and charge free, to the owner / end user.

If the idea was proposed in Germany say that property tax, water charges, bin charges and road tax should be abolished the world would look on in astonishment. That is what happened here and the bizarre thing is that socialist parties here are still trying to use the failed model as their economic policy on taxation.

Guy:Incognito

waking dreams wrote: »

I cant devise a plan to sort the Irish economy out right now in a single post over a cuppa Joe at my kitchen table. .

Surely you didn't just decide to start thinking about the problem when you read my post today?

waking dreams wrote: »

If like minded people where "in charge" (for lack of a better term) of our Tax that spike in social welfare wouldnt have happened.

But its not just a spike in social welfare on its own, its accompanied by a parallel drop in tax income.

Guy:Incognito

Wurly wrote: »

I completely agree with you. The most selfish people you will see are the people with shed loads of money.

It's not the ordinary joe that is the problem here. If people keep seeing fat cats entitled to huge tax breaks and pensions, do you not think this will affect society as a whole? People will begin to think, well f*ck this, if they can get tax breaks, i'm gonna do a few nixers on the side. Why should it be one rule for them and another for us?

So the problem started with them. They created the problem. People felt aggrieved and started doing the same thing.

But because these f*cktards see themselves as so untouchable, they propagandise a notion that it's the people on social welfare that are the problem. So now people think - well, why should that guy get social welfare, when i've to work me bollix off on a 12 hour shift?

I totally get this. I really, really do.

But if we fight against each other, what does it actually achieve? The selfish guys at the top are still creaming it. And we're doing nothing except angrily fighting with each other via keyboards.

You can blame fat cats all you like but a minority of higher earners provide a large percentage of the tax take.

Maybe we should just bring in a flat rate of €5,000 (figure plucked out of the air, for a proper figure get the tax take and divide by the number of people of working age not on the dole) a year that every single (earning) person pays and theres no avoiding.

I'm sure the "fat cats" would be more than happy with that.

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It's just that always and everywhere, all forms of economic activity and all economic assests have always been taxed, in organised societies. Only in Ireland was the notion dreamt up that private property and local services would be tax free and charge free, to the owner / end user.

But it was never free? Income tax has covered these charges until now.

If the idea was proposed in Germany say that property tax, water charges, bin charges and road tax should be abolished the world would look on in astonishment. That is what happened here and the bizarre thing is that socialist parties here are still trying to use the failed model as their economic policy on taxation.

But they're just different facets of the same model really. It's still tax. Just with different names.

Am I missing something here? I mean that with the greatest respect, by the way.

Guy:Incognito

gladrags wrote: »

If a bank robber robs a bank,I am not responsible.

If bankers fraudulently bring

If he peels off a €50 note and you take is as hush money, you've played your part.

dxhound2005

Wurly wrote: »

But it was never free? Income tax has covered these charges until now.



But they're just different facets of the same model really. It's still tax. Just with different names.

Am I missing something here? I mean that with the greatest respect, by the way.

And with the greatest respect in return you are missing ..... government borrowing.

Wurly

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

You can blame fat cats all you like but a minority of higher earners provide a large percentage of the tax take.

They do indeed. But the middle classes still pay more tax by proportion. Also, many large corporations pay little or no tex.

Maybe we should just bring in a flat rate of €5,000 (figure plucked out of the air, for a proper figure get the tax take and divide by the number of people of working age not on the dole) a year that every single (earning) person pays and theres no avoiding.

But sure something similar is already in place via percentage rates for income tax.

I'm sure the "fat cats" would be more than happy with that.

The fat cats should be paying the majority of the taxes. The fact is, they aren't.

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

And with the greatest respect in return you are missing ..... government borrowing.

Ok cool. So why did they borrow? And what got the state of affairs into such a mess in the first place?

EazyD

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If he peels off a €50 note and you take is as hush money, you've played your part.

I genuinely facepalm everytime I see this sort of response. "Oh we were all part of it, we all got our fair share and blew it".

What a load of nonsense really.

waking dreams

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Surely you didn't just decide to start thinking about the problem when you read my post today?



But its not just a spike in social welfare on its own, its accompanied by a parallel drop in tax income.

I am not sure you understand what I am saying. Sometimes I don't communicate correctly. There would be no issue with Social Welfare or shift in income tax had the issue been addressed correctly at the time. The problem was and is that income tax money was not being put in the correct areas. That is the reason for all of our debt / issues / heightened taxes. Again, numbers do not lie. However Politicians do.

dxhound2005

Wurly wrote: »

Ok cool. So why did they borrow? And what got the state of affairs into such a mess in the first place?

Where to begin. When FG Labour were dumped by the electorate in 1997 for bringing in "austerity" measures to repair the Charlie Haughey years of mismanagement, the country had a balanced budget. 10 years of Bertie and Charlie McCreevy and all the pensioners and house owners were mighty happy but something had gone wrong somewhere. I wonder what that could be.

Now that the current government are making themselves mighty unpopular again trying to repair that fiasco, no doubt another group will come along in 2016 and abolish property tax and water charges. It's what the people want.

Guy:Incognito

EazyD wrote: »

I genuinely facepalm everytime I see this sort of response. "Oh we were all part of it, we all got our fair share and blew it".

What a load of nonsense really.

Whereas "but the media told us too" is grand?

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Where to begin. When FG Labour were dumped by the electorate in 1997 for bringing in "austerity" measures to repair the Charlie Haughey years of mismanagement, the country had a balanced budget. 10 years of Bertie and Charlie McCreevy and all the pensioners and house owners were mighty happy but something had gone wrong somewhere. I wonder what that could be.

Now that the current government are making themselves mighty unpopular again trying to repair that fiasco, no doubt another group will come along in 2016 and abolish property tax and water charges. It's what the people want.

Okay so are we in agreement that the system is flawed then?