***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

waking dreams

Skylinehead wrote: »

A pittance in relation to the countries finances, barely registers. Which is why the claims of "reduce TDs wages to the industrial average and our problems will be solved" are short-sighted at best.

The expenses need to be sorted out, but would you want to be a TD on 25k a year? I certainly wouldn't.

Unless you can back up that statement with figures and %'s your point is null and void. What does a "pittance" equal?

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't want people protesting on makey-up rights on my behalf. And if that is your attitude to the law, why do you bother paying for anything?

I like to pay good money for any good service I receive. I like giving something back when a service has been provided to me to make my life more comfortable.

When you say 'the law', does that mean that we are not allowed to question it? There have been awful laws in years gone by - homosexuality being illegal for one. So if people accepted every law, we wouldn't be allowed to p1ss now. In fact, we'd probably be charged for it.:pac:

In all seriousness though, what part of this is makey-uppy? I don't think anyone has a problem with paying for clean, fresh, uncontaminated water. This would be an excellent service to receive.

This water has been treated for us up until now (some would argue just how 'treated' it is, but that's another point) via our taxation. If you don't agree with this, then where did the money come from?

I don't need to repeat myself or show you how farcical this set up has been from the beginning. THIS is what people have a problem with. Do you not see this?

No one is making anything up. Of course water needs to be treated for consumption and that is going to cost money. That's why the money should come from the public purse via taxation that is already in place.

Shortage of tax funds? No problem. Just cut the waste of taxpayers money via the many ways I have already listed on this thread.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

For the last time. We were previously paying an insufficient amount of money from our income tax. You persist with this lie that we're paying for water twice.

This is where we differ. I think the insufficient money from income tax thingo is a lie. I am an open minded individual so i'm open to your perception. Can you tell me how you know that the income tax take is insufficient. Snotty remarks aren't enough for me to agree with you at this point.

Indirect taxation is a less efficient method of funding anyway. It doesn't discourage water conservation.

I completely agree with you on this one. It absolutely doesn't discourage water conservation. I don't know what the answer to this problem is. But I don't believe the answer is Irish Water.

Irish Steve

Skylinehead wrote: »

A pittance in relation to the countries finances, barely registers. Which is why the claims of "reduce TDs wages to the industrial average and our problems will be solved" are short-sighted at best.

The expenses need to be sorted out, but would you want to be a TD on 25k a year? I certainly wouldn't.

Expenses need to be sorted.
Working hours need to be sorted, taking 3 or 4 months off in the summer, and several weeks at other times of the year is not modern management, or acceptable
Pensions need to be that, not a scheme to add to the money earnt after being thrown out, or otherwise moved on
Pensions need to be related to pay, and contributions from the state, not the crazy levels we see
They need to be accountable, a "recall" system needs to be introduced to allow the people to have some say over how they are doing their work.
TD's need to be more focussed on national issues, and NOT dealing with the pothole mentality, that's local councillor level, and they are the ones that should be dealing with it.

Ireland INC is no different to a large company. They have to present accounts to shareholders every year, and get them approved. Same sort of accountability for politicians wouldn't be a bad thing
The shareholders get to vote on the pay package for directors. How about a referendum type question on General Election voting papers, along the lines of "do you approve a X% increase in TD's pay? Y/N If they've done the job, OK, if not, then we have some control, which is totally missing right now, they can pay themselves whatever they like, and we're powerless to do anything about it.

gladrags

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's all very easy to just blame the bankers . I really thought we'd moved on from this simplistic view. Everyone involved played a part. People wanted taxes lowed, people wanted more and more money to buy houses and banks took easy way and just gave it to them. To just blame one lot and absolve everyone else is short sighted

If a bank robber robs a bank, I am not responsible.

Usually, if found guilty, they are jailed. The same laws should apply to all individuals and groups who commit a crime. We have laws, which apply to robbery, and fraud.

Far from being simplistic, as you describe it, the mass corruption, by so called well educated groups who led this country into austerity, is one of the most important events in our long history.

Not only did these greed ridden cowboys ransack the public finances, they left thousands of individuals debt ridden.

Just about every individual, from OAP's, mentally and physically ill, were affected by their actions and greed.

Not to mention the taxpayer, and the homeless.

" I really thought we'd moved on from this simplistic view"

I am struck by your concern that the public should pay for water, while at the same time brushing aside the state institutions, that have, through there manifest greed, done so much lasting damage.

And they will do it again, and again.

mikom

Irish Steve wrote: »

Expenses need to be sorted.
Working hours need to be sorted, taking 3 or 4 months off in the summer, and several weeks at other times of the year is not modern management, or acceptable
Pensions need to be that, not a scheme to add to the money earnt after being thrown out, or otherwise moved on
Pensions need to be related to pay, and contributions from the state, not the crazy levels we see
They need to be accountable, a "recall" system needs to be introduced to allow the people to have some say over how they are doing their work.
TD's need to be more focussed on national issues, and NOT dealing with the pothole mentality, that's local councillor level, and they are the ones that should be dealing with it.

Ireland INC is no different to a large company. They have to present accounts to shareholders every year, and get them approved. Same sort of accountability for politicians wouldn't be a bad thing
The shareholders get to vote on the pay package for directors. How about a referendum type question on General Election voting papers, along the lines of "do you approve a X% increase in TD's pay? Y/N If they've done the job, OK, if not, then we have some control, which is totally missing right now, they can pay themselves whatever they like, and we're powerless to do anything about it.

Prepare to puke...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-Rt7JIhIw

mynameismud

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Ah now come here. It's a Sunday.

And yet you've managed to post almost 50 posts* in this thread alone in the last 5 hours

*I know I've counted,how sad is that.

Wurly

gladrags wrote: »

If a bank robber robs a bank, I am not responsible.

Usually, if found guilty, they are jailed. The same laws should apply to all individuals and groups who commit a crime. We have laws, which apply to robbery, and fraud.

Far from being simplistic, as you describe it, the mass corruption, by so called well educated groups who led this country into austerity, is one of the most important events in our long history.

Not only did these greed ridden cowboys ransack the public finances, they left thousands of individuals debt ridden.

Just about every individual, from OAP's, mentally and physically ill, were affected by their actions and greed.

Not to mention the taxpayer, and the homeless.

" I really thought we'd moved on from this simplistic view"

I am struck by your concern that the public should pay for water, while at the same time brushing aside the state institutions, that have, through there manifest greed, done so much lasting damage.

And they will do it again, and again.

Unless we take back our 'makey uppy' rights!!

mikom

mynameismud wrote: »

And yet you've managed to post almost 50 posts* in this thread alone in the last 5 hours

*I know I've counted,how sad is that.

Bonus on the way I reckon.

Iwasfrozen

Wurly wrote: »

This is where we differ. I think the insufficient money from income tax thingo is a lie. I am an open minded individual so i'm open to your perception. Can you tell me how you know that the income tax take is insufficient. Snotty remarks aren't enough for me to agree with you at this point.


I completely agree with you on this one. It absolutely doesn't discourage water conservation. I don't know what the answer to this problem is. But I don't believe the answer is Irish Water.

The money taken from income tax is insufficient because it was not enough to maintain never mind upgrade our infrastructure. It's easy to say cut waste but don't you think if that were an option the government would do it? Every party claims they will cut waste it's an easy way of getting elected without having to admit to tax increases or spending cuts. Apart from the entire Irish language sector I doubt substantial waste exists any more. It would have been pruned during the austerity budgets.

Why isn't charging per usage an answer? Seems quite a good one to me.

dxhound2005

mynameismud wrote: »

And yet you've managed to post almost 50 posts* in this thread alone in the last 5 hours

*I know I've counted,how sad is that.

Make that almost 51.

Irish Steve

mikom wrote: »

Prepare to puke...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-Rt7JIhIw

Now we know why Enda's been so quiet this last while!

He knows just how much he can't deliver on that he promised he would.

Prepare to puke is right, I'd forgotten that broadcast.

Satriale

mikom wrote: »

Prepare to puke...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-Rt7JIhIw

i'll give you 2/1 that he doodled a spunking cock and balls in the end of that bit of paper...

waking dreams

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The money taken from income tax is insufficient because it was not enough to maintain never mind upgrade our infrastructure. It's easy to say cut waste but don't you think if that were an option the government would do it? Every party claims they will cut waste it's an easy way of getting elected without having to admit to tax increases or spending cuts. Apart from the entire Irish language sector I doubt substantial waste exists any more. It would have been pruned during the austerity budgets.

Why isn't charging per usage an answer? Seems quite a good one to me.

Can you understand that the reason there wasnt enough money was because it was our money miss managed ? Can you now understand why people wont pay IW?

Wurly

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The money taken from income tax is insufficient because it was not enough to maintain never mind upgrade our infrastructure. It's easy to say cut waste but don't you think if that were an option the government would do it?

Mate, I really, really don't. Do you not believe that they are a bunch of cronies? Actually, what is your opinion regarding how our tax money is spent? Making allowances for the fact of course, that neither you or I have access to concrete figures.

Every party claims they will cut waste it's an easy way of getting elected without having to admit to tax increases or spending cuts. Apart from the entire Irish language sector I doubt substantial waste exists any more. It would have been pruned during the austerity budgets.

You doubt it but the point is, you don't know for sure. So how can you back this? This is YOUR money we're talking about here. You wouldn't just open your wallet and flitter the notes into the breeze. You have no idea what your money is being spent on or where it is going. Neither do I. Does this not make you uneasy?

Why isn't charging per usage an answer? Seems quite a good one to me.

Because nothing is transparent and there are no fixed pricing strategies, I cannot trust that such a system would be done in a fair manner.

In Lonesome Dove

mikom wrote: »

Prepare to puke...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-Rt7JIhIw

Ebola would be more welcome than that muck.

dxhound2005

Here's a clue why Bertie was so popular, especially with the pensioners. And why there was no money for the water.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2010/11/pension-rates.html

Prior to 2010 there was only one year since 1998 when the increase in the contributory old-age pension was less than the rate of inflation. This was in 2000 when the pension was increased by 5.1% while inflation was running at 5.6%. In each subsequent year to 2009 the increases in the pension outstripped inflation.

We can also see that the total amount paid by the State in contributory old-age pensions has increased from €413 million in 1997 to €3,340 million in 2009 – an increase of 709% which is driven by demographic changes as well as increases in the rates.

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Here's a clue why Bertie was so popular, especially with the pensioners. And why there was no money for the water.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2010/11/pension-rates.html

Prior to 2010 there was only one year since 1998 when the increase in the contributory old-age pension was less than the rate of inflation. This was in 2000 when the pension was increased by 5.1% while inflation was running at 5.6%. In each subsequent year to 2009 the increases in the pension outstripped inflation.

We can also see that the total amount paid by the State in contributory old-age pensions has increased from €413 million in 1997 to €3,340 million in 2009 – an increase of 709% which is driven by demographic changes as well as increases in the rates.

That wasn't the only thing that dented the public purse though.

Why are you so okay with bondholders being bailed out? And with government members past and present being paid huge salaries? The sum for the bondholders alone goes into millions upon millions.

dxhound2005

Wurly wrote: »

That wasn't the only thing that dented the public purse though.

Why are you so okay with bondholders being bailed out? And with government members past and present being paid huge salaries? The sum for the bondholders alone goes into millions upon millions.

It will be good to look back in years to come to see that the tax base was broadened. Or rather restored to a normal base, like any other country.

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It will be good to look back in years to come to see that the tax base was broadened. Or rather restored to a normal base, like any other country.

Unless I have completely misinterpreted your post, I don't think you've answered my questions.

dxhound2005

Wurly wrote: »

Unless I have completely misinterpreted your post, I don't think you've answered my questions.

You didn't ask a question about what you quoted from me.

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You didn't ask a question about what you quoted from me.

Wurly wrote: »

Why are you so okay with bondholders being bailed out?

And with government members past and present being paid huge salaries?

These questions.

Irish Steve

Wurly wrote: »

That wasn't the only thing that dented the public purse though.

Why are you so okay with bondholders being bailed out? And with government members past and present being paid huge salaries? The sum for the bondholders alone goes into millions upon millions.

I'm not sure that anyone is happy about repaying the bondholders, but the alternatives that was presented to the politicians at the time were even less acceptable, if the IMF/Troika had come in and taken over completely, then much of the structure of Irish Society as it was then would have been dismantled by those people, with no regard for anything.

Some would say that it would have been a good thing to do, but rightly or wrongly, the people in power at the time made the decisions that they did.

Some of those decisions were wrong, some were questionable, but remember who was making the decisions, the FF party were still in theory in control at that time, and I am sure they had delusions of wriggling their way out of the mess they had made.

There are wide varieties of opinion active in this thread, even within the last 24 hours, but I think the one thing that's common to all is that we're sick to the back teeth of the manner in which the political classes have misled and deceived us over the last number of years.

I don't see any simple or quick solution to the problem, and I don't see any of the present parties offering a solution that I am prepared to vote for, as what's needed is a fundamental change to how politics operates, right down to the grass roots level.

That's going to be a BIG problem, unless something very significant happens over the next 12 months or so.

Wurly

Irish Steve wrote: »

There are wide varieties of opinion active in this thread, even within the last 24 hours, but I think the one thing that's common to all is that we're sick to the back teeth of the manner in which the political classes have misled and deceived us over the last number of years.
.

So why in the name of sweet sufferin' jaysis are we not standing united? I just don't get it!

Irish Steve

Wurly wrote: »

So why in the name of sweet sufferin' jaysis are we not standing united? I just don't get it!

I suspect that the answer to that is that we don't know what to unite behind at the moment because there is no clear and secure option to unite behind. There are some that won't trust FF, some that won't trust FG, some that won't trust Labour, some that would like to see SF running things, even a few that think the Greens have a valid agenda, and those differences are deep, and probably irreconcilable, the one uniting factor is that there is a wide disgust and resentment towards the political elite that have brought things to the level that they have.

While times were good, none of us looked too closely at exactly what those political classes were really doing, now, with the pain we've suffered, we are looking much more closely at the people at the top, and wondering why they don't seem to be sharing in, or even identifying with the pain that the people they are (supposedly) serving are enduring.

The fact that they've also broken just about all the promises of reform that they made just serves to heighten that resentment. Now, people want to see real change, but they don't know how to change the system to the degree and depth that it needs to be changed.

Pocoyo

Wurly wrote: »

So why in the name of sweet sufferin' jaysis are we not standing united? I just don't get it!

Wurly you know the answer the internet is full of T's just a week before the dublin protest boards was near totally anti protesters ''These protesters were vermin scoundrels of the highest order'' going by the regulars here everyone wanted to pay the charge all these posters that contribute 50+ plus posts a day must be loaded with money, RTE was at it too,It all changed after burtons disgraceful hollywood comments.

gladrags

Wurly wrote: »

So why in the name of sweet sufferin' jaysis are we not standing united? I just don't get it!

Divisiveness.

Public sector versus private sector is the prime example.Sections of the media heavily promote this.

Although the water issue appears to have gone some way to garner a consensus.

Do not know exactly why.

waking dreams

Irish Steve wrote: »

I suspect that the answer to that is that we don't know what to unite behind at the moment because there is no clear and secure option to unite behind. There are some that won't trust FF, some that won't trust FG, some that won't trust Labour, some that would like to see SF running things, even a few that think the Greens have a valid agenda, and those differences are deep, and probably irreconcilable, the one uniting factor is that there is a wide disgust and resentment towards the political elite that have brought things to the level that they have.

While times were good, none of us looked too closely at exactly what those political classes were really doing, now, with the pain we've suffered, we are looking much more closely at the people at the top, and wondering why they don't seem to be sharing in, or even identifying with the pain that the people they are (supposedly) serving are enduring.

The fact that they've also broken just about all the promises of reform that they made just serves to heighten that resentment. Now, people want to see real change, but they don't know how to change the system to the degree and depth that it needs to be changed.

We have the expertise in the private sector to successfully run a country with good intent.

Wurly

Irish Steve wrote: »

I suspect that the answer to that is that we don't know what to unite behind at the moment because there is no clear and secure option to unite behind. There are some that won't trust FF, some that won't trust FG, some that won't trust Labour, some that would like to see SF running things, even a few that think the Greens have a valid agenda, and those differences are deep, and probably irreconcilable, the one uniting factor is that there is a wide disgust and resentment towards the political elite that have brought things to the level that they have.

While times were good, none of us looked too closely at exactly what those political classes were really doing, now, with the pain we've suffered, we are looking much more closely at the people at the top, and wondering why they don't seem to be sharing in, or even identifying with the pain that the people they are (supposedly) serving are enduring.

The fact that they've also broken just about all the promises of reform that they made just serves to heighten that resentment. Now, people want to see real change, but they don't know how to change the system to the degree and depth that it needs to be changed.

Excellent post and really well written. I completely agree.

People don't see an alternative.

Can I suggest to you all to watch The Trews by Russell Brand on Youtube? Don't knock it until you've seen it. And even if you don't like Russell Brand as an individual, listen to what he says. It makes perfect sense.

We cannot even come up with changes while our focus is on fighting with each other.

If we all agree that there must be an alternative and start opening our minds, we will find the answer.

The world will never ever get better with the systems that are currently in place. Why? Because they are not and never will be about the people.

Wurly

Pocoyo wrote: »

Wurly you know the answer the internet is full of T's just a week before the dublin protest boards was near totally anti protesters ''These protesters were vermin scoundrels of the highest order'' going by the regulars here everyone wanted to pay the charge all these posters that contribute 50+ plus posts a day must be loaded with money, RTE was at it too,It all changed after burtons disgraceful hollywood comments.

I know. And again, people will only turn against others when they themselves are fearful or they just don't understand the message.

We have an absolute obligation to educate one another on the real goings on in our society. I certainly don't know everything either. Discussions like these are excellent platforms to inform one another about what's going on.

We can only change if we stand united. We can get better than this. But we need courage and conviction to do it. Fighting amongst each other will never ever ever ever work. We are not the problem.

Just remember, we have all been given certain information and we base our opinions, beliefs and feelings on that information. The more we discuss this topic, the more information is out there for others to educate themselves.

We are all doing the best we can. I know it can appear ugly when people lambast people for protesting but it's only due to fear or non understanding. We need to treat each other with respect. Listen to one another and open our minds to new information.

Can you imagine our potential as a society if we were to do this?

oceanman

Wurly wrote: »

I know. And again, people will only turn against others when they themselves are fearful or they just don't understand the message.

We have an absolute obligation to educate one another on the real goings on in our society. I certainly don't know everything either. Discussions like these are excellent platforms to inform one another about what's going on.

We can only change if we stand united. We can get better than this. But we need courage and conviction to do it. Fighting amongst each other will never ever ever ever work. We are not the problem.

Just remember, we have all been given certain information and we base our opinions, beliefs and feelings on that information. The more we discuss this topic, the more information is out there for others to educate themselves.

We are all doing the best we can. I know it can appear ugly when people lambast people for protesting but it's only due to fear or non understanding. We need to treat each other with respect. Listen to one another and open our minds to new information.

Can you imagine our potential as a society if we were to do this?

very good post there...