***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

geeksauce

gladrags wrote: »

The lack of debate on this thread,on the effect of water charges on old age pensioners, is shameful.

The worry,fear and stress,suffered by isolated,desperate and lonely citizens,is a disgrace.

Take your finger out of your ar*e.

Hilarious post, Pensioners are by far the least affected group of society when it comes to austerity.

The fact that there isn't much debate on here about the effect water charges will have on pensioners is partly because other groups of society have been and will be far more effected than pensioners.

The main reason for a lack of debate though I would imagine could be put down to the lack of pensioners using the site.

DamagedTrax

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

delivered the fastest growing economy in Europe with the fastest level of job creation.

isnt that what FF claimed right before things went tits up a few years back?

BoJack Horseman

DamagedTrax wrote: »

isnt that what FF claimed right before things went tits up a few years back?

Could be.

It's also the reality though, whether people like it or not.

DamagedTrax

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Could be.

It's also the reality though, whether people like it or not.

its just that it holds less water 2nd time around.

BoJack Horseman

DamagedTrax wrote: »

its just that it holds less water 2nd time around.

Well, your free to disprove them.

If Ireland was the slowest growing economy, people would moan, that its the fastest growing should be acknowledged & celebrated.

Unless running the country down suits people better

DamagedTrax

im not sure how being wary of proven liars equates to running the country down?

the people that blindly agree without question do more damage than those that want to know more about the reality of whats going on.

listermint

Preemptive 'Dont be sniffing around or shedding light on anything IW related' strike by the government

http://www.thejournal.ie/pac-legal-advice-irish-water-1741730-Oct2014/

THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS Committee (PAC) has questioned why it has received unsolicited legal advice that it cannot question Irish Water boss John Tierney.
TDs on the committee have been told they do not have the power to investigate Irish Water’s start-up costs or Tierney’s involvement in the controversial Poolbeg incinerator project when he was Dublin city manager.
The advice came in a letter received last night from the parliamentary legal advisor Ramona Quinn who said that PAC cannot scrutinise Irish Water or Poolbeg because neither are subject to examination by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Classy as ever Fine Gael, Classy as ever.


November 1st folks. This sham needs to be exposed completely.

Satriale

Hmmm. Public spending watchdog advised it cant examine QUARTER OF A BILLION in public spending.

Andy From Sligo

hmmm, so Joan Burton says there will be no bonuses paid (or any other corporate name for it) until Irish Water are operational. - er isnt Irish water already operational by putting in water meters to properties, or does she mean 1st October thats past, or does she mean in January 2015 when the first bills come in??? - i.e. when is Irish Water operational then? - ad could she not give a more definite approximate date like when? 2014? 2015? 2016?

Banjo String

From McGarr solicitors.

Irish Water, PPSNs and the missing Minister's agreement - McGarr Solicitors

When challenged on how it has the right to ask for people’s PPS numbers, Irish Water has said that it is a specified body under statute. This is a reference to Section 20 of the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2014.

This section did add Irish Water to the list of specified bodies set out in Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005.

S 262(4) and Sec 262(6) of the same Act are the ones which control what a specified body may do with a PPS number to verify a person’s identity with the Minister for Social Protection. Irish Water have said that this is the sole purpose for which PPS numbers are being collected.

This use is subject to prior agreement with Minister for Social Protection.

The Minister must be shown and must agree with the proposal for use and processing of the PPS number, on the basis (amongst other things) that it is necessary and proportionate under the general principles of data protection.

If the minister does agree that standard has been met then a specified body may then collect and process PPS Numbers-solely in line with that agreement.

No such agreement between the Minister for Social Protection and Irish Water is anywhere shown on the Irish Water website or on the Department of Social Protection website.

However, the Department of Social Protection has published a statement from Irish Water on its website saying that the agreement is still not in place, as of September 2014.

“This arrangement has not been finalized at this time but we are engaging with the DSP”

If there is no agreement in place with the Minister, on what statutory basis is the collection and processing of PPS numbers taking place?

Credit to Damien McCallig, who spotted this issue.

http://www.mcgarrsolicitors.ie/2014/10/22/irish-water-ppsns-and-the-missing-ministers-agreement/

Ogham

Banjo String wrote: »

From McGarr solicitors.



http://www.mcgarrsolicitors.ie/2014/10/22/irish-water-ppsns-and-the-missing-ministers-agreement/

The use of PPS numbers by IW is in legislation.
That line they quote above "This arrangement has not been finalized at this time but we are engaging with the DSP" if you read the page on welfare.ie seems to be just referring to the fine detail of how verification will actually happen.... that has not been finalized. Not a major issue.

Nothing to do with the Use of PPS numbers not being allowed.

Leroy42

Ogham wrote: »

The use of PPS numbers by IW is in legislation.
That line they quote above "This arrangement has not been finalized at this time but we are engaging with the DSP" if you read the page on welfare.ie seems to be just referring to the fine detail of how verification will actually happen.... that has not been finalized. Not a major issue.

Nothing to do with the Use of PPS numbers not being allowed.

But if they don't have an agreement on what they can use the PPS numbers for, then what are they collecting them for?

Surely a person then has a right to ask for the PPS, collected under teh belive as there is no agreement in place, that PPS number could not be used, to be deleted from the system.

The PPS number of children is really all that is required, and even that at a stretch. There is simply no reason why the PPS of a adult would be required as each household gets 31k allowance regardless

Banjo String

Ogham wrote: »

The use of PPS numbers by IW is in legislation.
That line they quote above "This arrangement has not been finalized at this time but we are engaging with the DSP" if you read the page on welfare.ie seems to be just referring to the fine detail of how verification will actually happen.... that has not been finalized. Not a major issue.

Nothing to do with the Use of PPS numbers not being allowed.

It is a fcuking shambles.


Does anyone know anything about this firm or solicitors? They seem to think this is an issue.




What reason has been given for it being unsigned?

Knight who says Meh

At this stage i cant see Irish Water in any form surviving. i can see it having to be scrapped and started over again in some drastically new form.
Unlike the protests and resistance to the property tax, local authority tax, septic tank registration and what ever else we have had thrown at us this one has gained traction and has given a huge majority of regular Joes a sense of empowerment and unity not experienced with the other protests. I think blood has been tasted and its not going to be let go now.
Personally less than 3 weeks ago i was willing to (and tried to) register, give PPS numbers and pay but due to the comedy that is Irish Water admin I was thankfully thwarted from doing so. In this time i have witnessed enough corruption, ineptitude and scandal and lets face it, success within the anti Irish water to make me do a total about face and join the "Wont pay' camp.
Yay me!
Yay us!

Anatom

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

At this stage i cant see Irish Water in any form surviving. i can see it having to be scrapped and started over again in some drastically new form.
Unlike the protests and resistance to the property tax, local authority tax, septic tank registration and what ever else we have had thrown at us this one has gained traction and has given a huge majority of regular Joes a sense of empowerment and unity not experienced with the other protests. I think blood has been tasted and its not going to be let go now.
Personally less than 3 weeks ago i was willing to (and tried to) register, give PPS numbers and pay but due to the comedy that is Irish Water admin I was thankfully thwarted from doing so. In this time i have witnessed enough corruption, ineptitude and scandal and lets face it, success within the anti Irish water to make me do a total about face and join the "Wont pay' camp.
Yay me!
Yay us!

Nah, too expensive and they're too far down the road of metering and gathering the information they need to start billing people. As well as that, they're also well into their infrastructural programme, fixing the mess of a water system that the local councils left us with...

There'd be huge fallout if it were decided to scrap IW and restart it with something else. Imagine the cost and the time it'd take!!

BoJack Horseman

Anatom wrote: »

As well as that, they're also well into their infrastructural programme, fixing the mess of a water system that the local councils left us with...

Reverting back to 30 scattered local authorities managing water would be a tragic waste.

Cantona's Collars

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Reverting back to 30 scattered local authorities managing water would be a tragic waste.

Guess who's tasked with fixing the infrastructure? That 30 scattered Local Authorities - Not Irish Water.

As it stands,IW is merely a bloated bill collection service and nothing more,no matter what way it's portrayed.

Ghost Buster

Anatom wrote: »

Nah, too expensive and they're too far down the road of metering and gathering the information they need to start billing people. As well as that, they're also well into their infrastructural programme, fixing the mess of a water system that the local councils left us with...

There'd be huge fallout if it were decided to scrap IW and restart it with something else. Imagine the cost and the time it'd take!!

But if 1 million homes out of 1.5 million continue to remain uncooperative, and I think they will, then what?

Anatom

Ghost Buster wrote: »

But if 1 million homes out of 1.5 million continue to remain uncooperative, and I think they will, then what?

A serious problem for the Government, that's what. To provide a water and waste water network that works, the money will have to come from somewhere...

"Guess who's tasked with fixing the infrastructure? That 30 scattered Local Authorities - Not Irish Water.

As it stands,IW is merely a bloated bill collection service and nothing more,no matter what way it's portrayed."

IW IS responsible for fixing the infrastructure. The local authorities aren't. I don't know who told you otherwise, but they're wrong.

gandalf

Anatom wrote: »

Nah, too expensive and they're too far down the road of metering and gathering the information they need to start billing people. As well as that, they're also well into their infrastructural programme, fixing the mess of a water system that the local councils left us with...

There'd be huge fallout if it were decided to scrap IW and restart it with something else. Imagine the cost and the time it'd take!!

But pouring more good money after bad into a botched and flawed organisation would be the height of stupidity as well.

The one good thing I hope comes from this farce is that people in this country start asking real questions about how our tax money is spent and put real pressure on the politicians to ensure we are getting value for money.

We have gone through to much pain over the last seven years to keep letting them and the higher management in the Public Service continue along the path of waste and think they can carry on as before. Fine Gael promised us real reform before the last election, they lied.

Ghost Buster

Anatom wrote: »

A serious problem for the Government, that's what. To provide a water and waste water network that works, the money will have to come from somewhere...

"Guess who's tasked with fixing the infrastructure? That 30 scattered Local Authorities - Not Irish Water.

As it stands,IW is merely a bloated bill collection service and nothing more,no matter what way it's portrayed."

IW IS responsible for fixing the infrastructure. The local authorities aren't. I don't know who told you otherwise, but they're wrong.

Then Irish politics needs to clean up its act in regards to corruption, waste, corruption, nepotism, corruption, inequality , corruption an d all the issues which An Taoiseach Kenny pledged to tackle when they gained power. They need the good will of the people. They dont have it.

Tony EH

Ah, we've been saying this since the 80's FFS.

Cantona's Collars

Anatom wrote: »

A serious problem for the Government, that's what. To provide a water and waste water network that works, the money will have to come from somewhere...



IW IS responsible for fixing the infrastructure. The local authorities aren't. I don't know who told you otherwise, but they're wrong.

The Local Authority told me,you can't get a source better than the guys who'll be doing the work.

GMC/Sierra are contracted to install meters,IW doesn't have any staff who fix leaks or upgrade networks so how are they going to do the groundworks?

BoJack Horseman

gandalf wrote: »

The one good thing I hope comes from this farce is that people in this country start asking real questions about how our tax money is spent and put real pressure on the politicians to ensure we are getting value for money.

Its a lonely voice though calling for that unfortunately.

Every time spending is reduced or even discussed being reduced there are howels of protest from unions, the opposition & other left-wing groups, as well as the people affected.

gandalf

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Its a lonely voice though calling for that unfortunately.

Every time spending is reduced or even discussed being reduced there are howels of protest from unions, the opposition & other left-wing groups, as well as the people affected.

I'm not even talking about reducing spend.

The problem is that there is a protected class in the Public Service typically in an overpopulated Management and the front line staff especially those on contracts are always the ones to be sacrificed thereby directly effecting the service to the public.

The money wasted on the "job for life" fallacy that exists in the Public Service could easily be directed to maintaining the delivery of services to the public (or even enhancing them) and to stabilising the front line staff numbers in the health service for example.

Ghost Buster

Ghost Buster wrote: »

But if 1 million homes out of 1.5 million continue to remain uncooperative, and I think they will, then what?

There is no hope of 1 million not paying it. Probably under 100k homes will refuse to pay it.

I have spoken to very few (if anybody) in real life who is not going to pay.

gandalf

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

There is no hope of 1 million not paying it. Probably under 100k homes will refuse to pay it.

I have spoken to very few (if anybody) in real life who is not going to pay.

Hmm nearly every one where I work says they won't pay including me.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

Hmm nearly every one where I work says they won't pay including me.

To be honest its not even getting discussed in my work place, the whole thing appears to be a non-event. Only one person really has said they are refusing to pay it who I have spoken to (and not a person I know very well).

Jaycornyn

I haven't received my pack yet and I'm undecided as what to do.

I've spent the last few days looking into this will pay/won't pay stuff and I'm more confused now then ever.

Does the whole no contract/no consent thing stand up? I've seen the article on broadsheet about how it is writing into the water services act 2013 part 21. But, in there is say '(4) Where a customer fails to pay a charge under this section, it shall be recoverable by Irish Water as a simple contract debt in any court of competent jurisdiction.' If there is no contract how is it a contract debt?

I'm confused!

Iwasfrozen

Tony EH wrote: »

Discrimination against lower castes has been made illegal, but the caste system is still very much in effect.

For the lowest caste, the "untouchables", all this has meant to them is that they are now called the "Dalit". Their situation remains the same.

They still, in their millions, have to live in their own piss and shit, however, and will never get a sniff of India's prosperity. A prosperity, by the way, which lies on the knife edge of the western "cheap labour" model to a large extent.

India is CERTAINLY not an economic model by which any nation should be looking to for an example of how to do things.

Unless, of course, ones political view finds sweatshops and people consigned to living in their own faeces acceptable.

Anyway, this is getting waaay off topic.

But becoming less prevalent with each passing generation as the country becomes more prosperous.

India is growing thirteen times faster than the UK and their gini coeff is similar to Ireland which means there is a very large growing middle class. Capitalist policies have lifted millions out of poverty in India, Dalits included.

Getting off topic? This convo began off topic.