***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Irish Steve

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Its a lonely voice though calling for that unfortunately.

Every time spending is reduced or even discussed being reduced there are howels of protest from unions, the opposition & other left-wing groups, as well as the people affected.

There are, because they are utterly and absolutely NOT customer (consumer) oriented, or focussed, and that culture and wrong attitude has to be broken, so that places like local authorities and Irish Water, and similar semi states are brought screaming into the 21 century and are forced to recognise once and for all that they are there to SERVE THE PEOPLE, and their failure to recognise that fundamental requirement is one of the main reasons why they are so despised.

As far as I am concerned, it's not so much about reducing the spend, though that would be more than possible if certain areas were reformed, it's about getting real value for money, and getting a long term change in attitude towards dealing with the issues that they are there to deal with.

I have spent more than 10 years trying to get an acceptable response out of both Meath County Council and the Office of Public Works, and I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of response letters I have had from them, as their main means of "dealing" with issues is to ignore them, probably because they hope that by doing so, the problem will go away. It's indicative of the contempt that OPW has for the public that their ONLY contact mail address is info@opw.ie. I sent them a mail a good while back, I am still waiting for any form of response, or even an acknowledgement.

That attitude and culture has to be changed, from the top to the bottom, and the people in those semi states made properly and fully accountable for their actions, and where necessary, for their failures. If they are demonstrated to be incompetent, then they either get retrained, or they go, and it is that simple, and it's the culture and attitude that has become an increasing divide between the public and private sector.

Fail in the private sector, and you're looking for new employment, it is that simple. It needs to be that cut and dried in the public sector as well.

We can vote politicians out, we should be able to do something similar within the public sector, as the people that are running it at present seem to be unwilling or unable to do so.

lorenzo87

Someone please explain this for me.
WHEN I get my bills and throw them in the bin, again and again, and again and again, how do Irish Water intend to get the money off me and another 500,000 people? They don't even have the application packs sent out, YET if you fail to apply for one they are going to charge you a huge bill.. This country is gone to the fekkin dogs, this Irish Water WILL be defeated by the people, and the opposing parties know all they have to do is to promise to abolish it to get into power too. I WILL NOT PAY! END OF!

smash

lorenzo87 wrote: »

Someone please explain this for me.
WHEN I get my bills and throw them in the bin, again and again, and again and again, how do Irish Water intend to get the money off me and another 500,000 people? They don't even have the application packs sent out, YET if you fail to apply for one they are going to charge you a huge bill.. This country is gone to the fekkin dogs, this Irish Water WILL be defeated by the people, and the opposing parties know all they have to do is to promise to abolish it to get into power too. I WILL NOT PAY! END OF!

It's simple. They're relying on the fact that you can't survive on a trickle of water when they reduce supply. bunch of assholes!

listermint

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Its a lonely voice though calling for that unfortunately.

Every time spending is reduced or even discussed being reduced there are howels of protest from unions, the opposition & other left-wing groups, as well as the people affected.

That is complete crap,

If governments started treating citizens as bloody adults and speaking to them out of their mouth and not out of the two sides of their mouth then people would listen.

There is a real case for genuine clarity and openess in decision making. And giving people X Y & Z of why something needs to be done and how it will be done.


On a small scale and its weird i am using an infrastructure anology. gone are the days of the 80's and 90's when road maintenance and works were carried out hap hazardly. Look at Newlands Cross which is due for completion relatively soon. It has been nearly flawless in its inception its planning and its execution. This was done with full clarity and openess of what was to be done, work arounds for traffic as it progressed and final completion details of how it will look when its completed. It is a perfect example of real proper planning.


Goal - Reduce Traffic Congestion
Plan - Design new Road Layout including Fly over
Tendor - Appropriate Infrastructure company to complete works with firm fixed costs and timescales
Resolution - Have a look for yourself it looks perfect and is within time and budget


Now compare to Irish Water

Goal - We actually were never told really what the goal was, it started with 'we must pay for water our infrastructure is broken' then moved to 'we must pay for water its finite resource and we are wasting it conserve conserve' then to 'we have to pay our way there are budget deficits to be tackled'
So with not a sniff of a real goal you are going to confuse people
Plan - Setup an agent of the state, but make sure its semi private because the people will never go for more state employees being paid heavy salaries. This agent must be setup with expertise in this area and have a fully functional billing system to capture and invoice the people
Tendor - Give out contracts to pretty much anyone with no real clarity on the selection process despite numerous seemingly more cost effective contractors bidding more than half of what was decided upon.
Resolution - A semi state private company being paid bonuses with what appears to be zero accountbility to anyone including the PAC. An agent of the state with no real revenue powers that has overspend in its first year. A communications nightmare with a CEO who is quite literally hiding from the media and all around him. A board some of the heads with from the very worst of the Public sector management rejects, numerous failed projects numerous scandals and acres of wasted cash in their wake. The rest as they say is recent history.




So back to square one. Treat people like Adults. Explain in specific detail why we need to bill for water. there was no need to meter it, i think we could have gotten away with spending the public purse more effectively on infrastructure using existing expertise there or creating crews (jobs) of specific teams to target areas of concern. And once this is off the ground in a year or so setup a fixed charge. Thus demonstrating to people that Jobs have been created, the public purse has been spend on something legitmate and we are some way into fixing the ills of the infrastructure.



But FG chose to treat us like children.



And here are the results.

benny79

and I will not pay end off...

lorenzo87

lorenzo87 wrote: »

Someone please explain this for me.
WHEN I get my bills and throw them in the bin, again and again, and again and again, how do Irish Water intend to get the money off me and another 500,000 people? They don't even have the application packs sent out, YET if you fail to apply for one they are going to charge you a huge bill.. This country is gone to the fekkin dogs, this Irish Water WILL be defeated by the people, and the opposing parties know all they have to do is to promise to abolish it to get into power too. I WILL NOT PAY! END OF!

Cut off your water same as the ESB would cut of your electricity if you don't pay I suppose is the obvious route.

lorenzo87

smash wrote: »

It's simple. They're relying on the fact that you can't survive on a trickle of water when they reduce supply. bunch of assholes!

They can't do that though.
Water is a basic human right.
A friend of mine owns a chain of pubs in Spain, he pays €50 a year. I'd have no problem paying a fee like that, but the talk of 300 - 500 per annum is simply INSANE. The people running this country are nothing short of complete idiots, and if they think we are bending over for them this time, they are very mistaken. They say we are coming out of recession then they impose this charge on us!

_Kaiser_

smash wrote: »

It's simple. They're relying on the fact that you can't survive on a trickle of water when they reduce supply. bunch of assholes!

Which, from what I've read, can be remedied quickly enough by anyone as well.

Like everything else with IW, it's only half-thought through. I knew that though when I saw their powerpoint spin months ago talking about how to convert us all to customers and how we should be thankful for it :rolleyes:

lorenzo87

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

Cut off your water same as the ESB would cut of your electricity if you don't pay I suppose is the obvious route.

They can't do that, was already discussed in the Dáil.

Banjo String

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

To be honest its not even getting discussed in my work place, the whole thing appears to be a non-event. Only one person really has said they are refusing to pay it who I have spoken to (and not a person I know very well).

Lol.

gandalf

Hmmm the only workplace I could see where people are going to pay is based in Upper Mount Street

lorenzo87

lorenzo87 wrote: »

They say we are coming out of recession then they impose this charge on us!

They also cut tax in the budget, a rough calculation tells me I will still be up money next year compared to last year even after paying the water charge because of other cuts.

I'm not saying I like the idea of paying it btw and think it should be covered from our paye, usc etc. I'm not foolish enough to waste my time protesting against it either and I accept that it has to be paid.

Little CuChulainn

Jaycornyn wrote: »

I haven't received my pack yet and I'm undecided as what to do.

I've spent the last few days looking into this will pay/won't pay stuff and I'm more confused now then ever.

Does the whole no contract/no consent thing stand up? I've seen the article on broadsheet about how it is writing into the water services act 2013 part 21. But, in there is say '(4) Where a customer fails to pay a charge under this section, it shall be recoverable by Irish Water as a simple contract debt in any court of competent jurisdiction.' If there is no contract how is it a contract debt?

I'm confused!

"No contract no consent" means sweet FA. The legislation states that if you use the services you are contracting with IW and unless this legislation is struck down by a constitutional challenge, it won't be overruled by the legal equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la I can't hear you".

listermint

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

They also cut tax in the budget, I will still be up money next year compared to last year even after paying the water charge because of other cuts.

I'm not saying I like the idea of paying it btw and think it should be covered from our paye, usc etc. I'm not foolish enough to waste my time protesting against it either and I accept that it has to be paid.

Dont worry there is always people out there that will do it for you... right.



Zzzzzz

Irish Steve

The Newlands cross comparison is valid in as far as it goes, but how much better it would have been if they hadn't wasted I don't know how much on widening it and upgrading the traffic lights not that long ago.

There was a complete lack of forward thinking and vision in that phase of the upgrades, the M50 was the same, a 1980's design that eventually got built 20 years later, and we saw how that worked out, they had to go back and fix that, sort of, as by that time, there were too many things in the way to do it properly, and who in their right mind would have put a railway through the middle of the busiest junction in the country, yet they did.

Getting back to IW, the same can be said of them. They're making the rules as they go along, and are completely lacking in focus on dealing with the public, as are the politicians, and the underlying issues mentioned above about why are completely right, it was a mess from before it started, because the concept of making a new semi state out of the old mess was wrong, in the same way as making the HSE out of 9 (I think) health boards was wrong.

Too many managers, each fighting to protect their little fiefdoms, too many "administrators" who don't actually add value to the service, too few "indians" on the ground actually working on the network and fixing the increasing number of problems and issues that are resulting in 40% of the treated water being wasted. The local authorities didn't fix it, and now they have lost it, and IW needs to be told very firmly and clearly, "SORT it", and we're not interested in excuses any more.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Dont worry there is always people out there that will do it for you... right.



Zzzzzz

I dont want anyone protesting on my behalf.

I don't like paying a lot of things car tax for instance which costs me about 4 or 5 times what the water charge will be, but it has to be paid. I don't like electricity bills or gas bills should I go out and protest about them too?

lorenzo87

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

I dont want anyone protesting on my behalf.

I don't like paying a lot of things car tax for instance which costs me about 4 or 5 times what the water charge will be, but it has to be paid. I don't like electricity bills or gas bills should I go out and protest about them too?

Thankfully none of the African Americans had your attitude or they would still be in shackles.

listermint

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

I dont want anyone protesting on my behalf.

I don't like paying a lot of things car tax for instance which costs me about 4 or 5 times what the water charge will be, but it has to be paid. I don't like electricity bills or gas bills should I go out and protest about them too?

You know well all the reasons people are out. Stop being utterly ridiculous again. It is tiresome trying to sidetrack the discussion again. Nobody is advocating protesting about your gas.

Were you paying for your gas and electricity via your income tax up until recently? Was your gas supplier specifically setup to give jobs to your mates? and running contractors who were not the best fit for the job at hand ?


Again stop making spurious arguements which are invalid.

lorenzo87

lorenzo87 wrote: »

Thankfully none of the African Americans had your attitude or they would still be in shackles.

Idiotic response, its fairly damn insulting to compare slavery to a water charge.

lorenzo87

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

Idiotic response, its fairly damn insulting to compare slavery to a water charge.

You do know Ireland is the PEOPLE's country? Nobody elses.
Ultimately it is what the majority decides how this turns out, and as of now it is looking pretty good to me that these charges will get over-turned one way or the other. I think you are completely missing the point, the majority of people can't afford a 400-500 euro bill on top of what they already have to pay. If you can afford a car, tax, electricity, phone, and water charges, and every other bill going, fair play because you are not in the majority.

Larbre34

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

I dont want anyone protesting on my behalf.

I don't like paying a lot of things car tax for instance which costs me about 4 or 5 times what the water charge will be, but it has to be paid. I don't like electricity bills or gas bills should I go out and protest about them too?

Of course you can, if you wish. Or at least you have the option to switch between providers for maximum economy.

Also, other utilities are not government attempts to bring in a shambles of a stealth tax. And other utilities do not attempt to charge you for a decrepit system. If you feel you are not already paying for your household water through high personal and property taxes then that is your prerogative, but I do not agree.

Car tax is indeed another racket imposed on the people when simply transferring the duty to fuel and do away with the admin heavy car tax system would satisfy the ultimate polluter pays principle. That particular fight is for another day.

lorenzo87

lorenzo87 wrote: »

the majority of people can't afford a 400-500 euro bill on top of what they already have to pay..

The water charge is going to cost me about 150 euro for the year. It will take a house with 5 adults to get up on 500 euro a year and that would be divided between them you would imagine.

There is going to be very few if anybody paying 500 euro out of a single income for water charges. Again as I said Id rather not have to pay it but that's the way it is and as I said before we have been paying for water for 6 or 7 years in my home place so its not something new at all to me.

lorenzo87

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

The water charge is going to cost me about 150 euro for the year.

And 2 years down the road after privatisation we'll see what you get for 150.

Banjo String

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

I dont want anyone protesting on my behalf.

I don't like paying a lot of things car tax for instance which costs me about 4 or 5 times what the water charge will be, but it has to be paid. I don't like electricity bills or gas bills should I go out and protest about them too ?

Whenever they up vat, motor tax, and income tax to pay for those things, and then ask you to pay again.

Then yeah.

And I'll be beside you.

cajonlardo

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

The water charge is going to cost me about 150 euro for the year.

So you are grand. Fcuk everyone else. The person on prime time the other night whose family now sleeps in a car. The minimum wage mother with over 18 year old children still living with her. The man working illegally long hours trying to feed his family. The family that are one pay day loan away from being on the street. Yeah. Fcuk them all. I'm alright jack, looking after number one.

gandalf

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

The water charge is going to cost me about 150 euro for the year. It will take a house with 5 adults to get up on 500 euro a year and that would be divided between them you would imagine.

There is going to be very few if anybody paying 500 euro out of a single income for water charges. Again as I said Id rather not have to pay it but that's the way it is and as I said before we have been paying for water for 6 or 7 years in my home place so its not something new at all to me.

As a taxpayer I have been paying for water every day I have worked.

In 2016 the allowances will expire and I would hazard to guess that if this system is allowed to pass the charge will go up quite a bit then.

cajonlardo

cajonlardo wrote: »

So you are grand. Fcuk everyone else. The person on prime time the other night whose family now sleeps in a car. The minimum wage mother with over 18 year old children still living with her. The man working illegally long hours trying to feed his family. The family that are one pay day loan away from being on the street. Yeah. Fcuk them all. I'm alright jack, looking after number one.

I understand there are people who will pay more than me and people who are much less able to pay than me. It doesn't change the fact that one way or another these charges are going to happen.

I was also pointing out that the "hit" from the water charges is not going to be up around 500 euro for that many people, especially single income families. There will no doubt be exceptions but there are also a water charge tax relief to help off set this.

gandalf wrote: »

As a taxpayer I have been paying for water every day I have worked.

.

As have everybody in my home area but for the last 7 years we have all been metered and paying water charges. Pay or be cut off were the options. Farmers have also been paying water charges for years regardless of where they in the country and farmers are as under pressure as many of the low paid workers who are being most effected by the new water charges.

BoJack Horseman

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

I was also pointing out that the "hit" from the water charges is not going to be up around 500 euro for that many people

Probably very few.

The IW website factors for 5 adults & 5 kids as their maximum.... The net annual cost being €485.

gandalf

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

I understand there are people who will pay more than me and people who are much less able to pay than me. It doesn't change the fact that one way or another these charges are going to happen.

I was also pointing out that the "hit" from the water charges is not going to be up around 500 euro for that many people, especially single income families. There will no doubt be exceptions but there are also a water charge tax relief to help off set this.

And when the prices shoot up in 2016?

As have everybody in my home area but for the last 7 years we have all been metered and paying water charges. Pay or be cut off were the options.

I am assuming you're parents lived outside a major urban area then, it is understandable that they would have to pay a premium if they are not in an area that can be serviced by the normal infrastructure.

Farmers have also been paying water charges for years regardless of where they in the country and farmers are as under pressure as many of the low paid workers who are being most effected by the new water charges.

Farms are classified as businesses and all businesses have to pay water charges. This conversation has to do with domestic charges, lets keep on that topic.

Highflyer13

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

The water charge is going to cost me about 150 euro for the year. It will take a house with 5 adults to get up on 500 euro a year and that would be divided between them you would imagine.

There is going to be very few if anybody paying 500 euro out of a single income for water charges. Again as I said Id rather not have to pay it but that's the way it is and as I said before we have been paying for water for 6 or 7 years in my home place so its not something new at all to me.

Sure we'll send the kids out to work to pay the water charges. Not all houses have 5 working adults. My god.