***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Tony EH

Banjo String wrote: »

Didn't they just do what FF signed us up to (guided by the troika)

Fine Gael is just Fianna Fail spelt wrong.

dxhound2005

Satriale wrote: »

It's the way they run Switzerland, arguably a more successful country than Ireland.
Yes immature voting would be a problem in the short term, but people wouldnt be long voting for higher taxes when their cops were pulled off the street.
Real democracy, scary thought isnt it!

Yes, I like the Swiss idea. The male population, who were the only ones allowed to vote kept women from having a vote up until recent times. The last Canton to give women the vote was in 1990, and then only by court order not by the men voting.

Satriale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sure there are people killed everyday but you gave the scenario of people voting for higher taxes when the number of gardai begin to fall.

But if we can agree that falling numbers of gardai lead to higher crime rates then what about the victims in the meantime? Direct democracy is too destabilizing to be a real alternative.

I'm using that as an extreme example. Lets say the people had a vote on setting up IW, It might just surprise you how many would vote for it (and maybe all government policies, without the cronyism and corruption)
I would in the right circumstances, and if those circumstances didnt suit me, at least i would know that the people outvoted me not a Party Whip.

Democracy in action, not party politics.

Tony EH

Rosa Hot Lumberman wrote: »

I voted FG and have always voted FG and I will vote FG again.

Which shows clearly that you are simply a partisan politcial mouthpiece (as if nobody knew) and your opinions are not to trusted.

dxhound2005

Satriale wrote: »

I'm using that as an extreme example. Lets say the people had a vote on setting up IW, It might just surprise you how many would vote for it (and maybe all government policies, without the cronyism and corruption)
I would in the right circumstances, and if those circumstances didnt suit me, at least i would know that the people outvoted me not a Party Whip.

Democracy in action, not party politics.

No parliamentary democracy is going to allow it's citizenry to vote on taxes. It simply would not work. We get to elect our parliaments every few years. Let them get on with it. If they enact popular policies like the previous government, they get elected three times, and rule for 14 years. If they enact unpopular policies as is currently being claimed, then they probably won't get re-elected.

Satriale

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Yes, I like the Swiss idea. The male population, who were the only ones allowed to vote kept women from having a vote up until recent times. The last Canton to give women the vote was in 1990, and then only by court order not by the men voting.

Thats true democracy for you, i'm glad to see they have matured to our way of thinking. Werent Ireland ahead of their time when it came to womens suffrage?
We could take that system and improve on it, maybe Europe would be copying us for a change!!!

hiFidelity

The Dáil’s spending watchdog has claimed unknown officials are attempting to "muzzle" its work after it received "unsolicited" Oireachtas legal counsel advice warning it not to examine Irish Water.

Public accounts committee chair John McGuinness said all members of the committee want to know why the letter was sent — and who requested it.


The whole story is in the Irish Examiner, and because I cannot post links yet, just Google this:

'pac-fury-at-irish-water-questioning-warning'

Highflyer13

Irish Steve wrote: »

We will never know what might have happened had the Troika/IMF taken the nuclear option, which would have shut ALL the existing state services down, and stopped all of the index linked defined benefit pensions, as well as breaking up many of the quangos that are wasting so much money.

All of those services would have had to be replaced, but in what form, and with what staff? It could well have been a very painful and traumatic shock to the system that would have changed the nature of Irish Politics and state services for a very long time to come, and in hindsight, given the singular failure of the coalition to bring in the reforms they promised, I am left wondering if the right decision was made.

When I hear some of the things that are going on at the moment, the PAC being "warned off", IW giving all manner of extravagant allowances to senior managers, and fringe benefits as well, it's clear that the lessons were not learnt, the culture has not changed, and the "Golden Circle" is alive and well and doing everything it can to ensure that the status quo is restored to "normal" as soon as possible, so that they can fill the trough again.

Sickening, and unacceptable, the problem being that there's no alternative that is prepared to address the corruption, cronyism and isolationist culture that exists across so many of the political and public sector divisions.

Not voting is not an option, if only one person voted because the rest of us all decided not to, then the result would be based on that one vote, a constitutional change to have a "none of the above" option on a ballot is the only possible way forward, and if more than a defined percentage vote "none", the election is declared invalid, and void, and has to be re run, which might just mean that the parties competing would have to present policies that they can stand over and are prepared to put into place.

In the same way, a referendum style question on things like TD's pay that has to be voted on yes or no at each election might restore some control over the political elite, somehow, they have to be made answerable and accountable to the people, as that is how it it supposed to be, and at present very clearly is not.

I am under no illusions, the IW fiasco is just the tip of a very big iceberg, and somehow, the whole system has to be changed and fundamentally reformed in order to make it once again fit for purpose, and answerable to the people.

In the age of social media, I cannot understand how the people of this country have not taken the country back or a new party to take the country forward in a accountable and fair manner has not emerged. The status quo needs to be destroyed. Anything that emerges seems to have old familiar faces attached to them like the Reform Alliance with Creighton, Healy-Eames and the crew. People don't want that. As for 2016, yeah we are fcuked. Personally I'd like to get involved in politics myself but there is no one out there I can align myself to being centre-right which saddens me. Not a hope I would sell myself out to any of the gombeen traitor parties.

dxhound2005

hiFidelity wrote: »

The Dáil’s spending watchdog has claimed unknown officials are attempting to "muzzle" its work after it received "unsolicited" Oireachtas legal counsel advice warning it not to examine Irish Water.

Public accounts committee chair John McGuinness said all members of the committee want to know why the letter was sent — and who requested it.


The whole story is in the Irish Examiner, and because I cannot post links yet, just Google this:

'pac-fury-at-irish-water-questioning-warning'

I don't want to close down free speech, but why do you feel the need to repeat what you posted 15 hours ago. I read it the last time, and the dozen or so other posts about that story.

DamagedTrax

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What is a referendum style question? Is it the same as a referendum? The Constitution doesn't allow referendums on money matters. Otherwise every new tax or charge properly enacted by our democratically elected legislature would be voted down by the people in most likleyhood. And no doubt all existing taxes would be forced to a vote as well by the populist elements. No way to run a country.

None of the above. Why don't you and the others who go on about They are all the Same, stand for election?

way to take his good idea and run completely the opposite direction with it.

what the poster was speaking of (if i may be so bold to presume) was getting rid of the exact system you described. why shouldnt we vote on politicians wages but not every day small taxation. why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

the constitution is very much open to amendment.. and even bent around at some points. im pretty sure a referendum vote should stand according to the constitution but that didnt seem to matter a bit when it didnt go enda's way a few years back.

the constitution is ours. we can change it if we so like and the politicians can either like it or cry about it during dail squabbles hour, whatever.


as for standing for election, i personally would love to as an independent. maybe i will one day.

dxhound2005

DamagedTrax wrote: »

way to take his good idea and run completely the opposite direction with it.

what the poster was speaking of (if i may be so bold to presume) was getting rid of the exact system you described. why shouldnt we vote on politicians wages but not every day small taxation. why does it have to be mutually exclusive?

the constitution is very much open to amendment.. and even bent around at some points. im pretty sure a referendum vote should stand according to the constitution but that didnt seem to matter a bit when it didnt go enda's way a few years back.

the constitution is ours. we can change it if we so like and the politicians can either like it or cry about it during dail squabbles hour, whatever.


as for standing for election, i personally would love to as an independent. maybe i will one day.

And if we halved their wages what good would that do? As it stands politicians only earn a pittance compared to the bosses in the private sector. If we scrapped the whole system it might save enough to pay our social welfare bill for one or two days. Anyone can be a TD if they fancy the money, pity there will be only 160 vacancies in the whole country.

Cantona's Collars

A protest took place in Enniscorthy this morning,a decent turnout considering the town is populated by the most apathetic people in the country.

DamagedTrax

dxhound2005 wrote: »

And if we halved their wages what good would that do? As it stands politicians only earn a pittance compared to the bosses in the private sector. If we scrapped the whole system it might save enough to pay our social welfare bill for one or two days. Anyone can be a TD if they fancy the money, pity there will be only 160 vacancies in the whole country.

who said half their wages

they need to be answerable for those wage if they want to be well paid and giving themselves pay rises without the people's say so is mental.

and who cares about the public sector? there will always be those of us that will work for the sake of doing something without too much concern for money and there will always be those that prefer to work for a better financial reward. that isnt going to change. thats a person's choice and as many go one way as the other. the current CEO's that we always hear about smaller wages not attracting, are no loss to the running of a country, they're already planted too deep in pure capitalism to even be considered for a role that should have more concern about people than money.

my own reason for not going into politics so far has been lack of academic education (i have years of on the job and a niche hdip). if i couldnt stand up and be 100% informed on every issue i tackled (especially economic), then i couldnt stand up and pretend to represent anyone.

Satriale

dxhound2005 wrote: »

And if we halved their wages what good would that do? As it stands politicians only earn a pittance compared to the bosses in the private sector. If we scrapped the whole system it might save enough to pay our social welfare bill for one or two days. Anyone can be a TD if they fancy the money, pity there will be only 160 vacancies in the whole country.

Who said anything about halving their wages? It might stop some of the obscenities though. And anyway if they are so qualified for the private sector let them work there.
Though I doubt there's much call for teachers and publicans running multinationals here.


Edit
SNAP!

YFlyer

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't want to close down free speech, but why do you feel the need to repeat what you posted 15 hours ago. I read it the last time, and the dozen or so other posts about that story.

Maybe he thought you were out celebrating.

gladrags

zerks wrote: »

A protest took place in Enniscorthy this morning,a decent turnout considering the town is populated by the most apathetic people in the country.

"According to the new chairman of Failte Ireland, Michael Cawley, the famous and historical cobblestones on some of Temple Bar’s streets may have to go, as some tourists wearing high heels find it difficult to walk on them! Mr Cawley, who is a former Deputy Chief Executive of Ryanair, was speaking on the RTE Business Show this morning…."

Thats IW for ye,destroying the tourist trade.

FREETV

The con that is Irish Water and water charges.
Only a fool with more money than sense would pay three times for water and pay towards their bonuses and high end car perks for the top guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG9nvKvwZKc

falan

well done limerick. 10000 here protesting today... no way we won't pay!!

FREETV

Look at this! A parody.

https://twitter.com/IrishWater2/status/525718698850787328

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/irishvoice/Irish-government-had-found-the-Irish-peoples-breaking-point-with-Irish-Water-debacle.html

Cantona's Collars

FREETV wrote: »

Look at this!

https://twitter.com/IrishWater2/status/525718698850787328

Great spoof account but most of it is actually closer to the truth than the real thing.

Going Forward

zerks wrote: »

Great spoof account but most of it is actually closer to the truth than the real thing.

Cue "Irish Water, The Musical Farce"

Opening soon at Bórd Gais Energy Theatre.

FREETV

Clare has the best approach and ideas when it comes to the scam that is Irish Water and the enforced against your will water charges.

http://www.thejournal.ie/clare-daly-water-charges-1744251-Oct2014/

More reality here for the gullible fools who want to pay again for water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3TyfERp-Iw

http://www.dailyedge.ie/irish-water-protest-1672626-Sep2014/

Cantona's Collars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3TyfERp-Iw

Embedded it for you.

FREETV

http://www.thejournal.ie/galway-county-council-water-charges-1746333-Oct2014/

Will all the other County Councils follow suit?
I should hope so.

Irish Steve

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What is a referendum style question? Is it the same as a referendum? The Constitution doesn't allow referendums on money matters. Otherwise every new tax or charge properly enacted by our democratically elected legislature would be voted down by the people in most likleyhood. And no doubt all existing taxes would be forced to a vote as well by the populist elements. No way to run a country.

None of the above. Why don't you and the others who go on about They are all the Same, stand for election?

I'm not going to get into the "properly enacted" aspect of the finance, I didn't suggest that, I just want to be able to say very clearly to the people that I elect, "You are accountable to me, and I am NOT happy for you to be paying yourselves an extra 15% with all that implies for pensions at this time".

Not necessarily exactly that, more along the lines of "We are prepared to let you have an extra 5%", or similar.

As for standing for election myself, if I was 20 years younger, and had a very large pot of money to fund a campaign against the obscene sums spent on putting monstrous posters on every lamp post in the country, I would consider it, but at almost retiring age, and with no money to fund anything as a result of Bertie's lies, it's not going to happen.

I am well aware that the system is well loaded in favour of the existing party structures, and real change means the end of that structure and the massive funding that it spends every time there is a vote.

Brutal honesty? The concept of real democracy in the Swiss style as mentioned earlier won't work in Ireland, because "the people" are not really willing to engage in politics, or to spend the time needed to really make informed decisions, the most involvement you will get is a reluctant turn out to vote once every 4 or 5 years, based on sound bites and an A4 sheet that effectively says "are'nt I good", with occasional referendum votes in between whiles, with much lower turnouts, and the certain knowledge that if we don't vote the way our masters tell us, we'll have to do it all again until we do. That's NOT real democracy.

As long as the local TD gets the potholes fixed, sorts out the medical card for them, and strokes the ego of the local community by turning up for the right number of funerals, that's about the limit of most people's involvement with Politics. Some will get involved with the local party mechanism, but the real numbers of active members is scarily small, and their influence on party policy is extremely limited.

I still remember when Gay Byrne was running the morning show, and Joe was his travelling voice. The revelations about the money "given" to CJ had just hit the headlines, and Joe was sent to get people's opinions of it. He visited Ballymun, part of CJ's constituency, and asked a number of people, some very much down on their luck, what they thought of him getting corrupt payments. One reply summed up Irish Politics for me "Wasn't he a cute Hoor to get away with it for as long as he did".

For many years, Irish Politics was structured around sticking one finger up to "the system", because it wasn't being run by the Irish. For nearly 100 years now, the Irish HAVE been running Irish Politics, but the attitude of "up yours" is still deeply and strongly engrained in the system.

If the people at the top actually explained that "we need to spend X millions on project Y, and that will mean an increase in tax Z of A figure, I suspect that most thinking people that actually engage in the process will look objectively at the specific proposal, and say Yes or No, as it's no different from the sorts of decisions they make every day in their own lives.

What people won't accept is the sort of fudge and corruption that's endemic and engrained in the system, where the cost is supposedly X, and ends up being 3X because of all the bonuses and expenses, and the things the "consultants" missed, the PPARS payroll being the classic example, and the Poolbeg incinerator being another.

The issue then is that unlike the private sector (Tesco for example, where people at the top are at present suspended from work), when the state sectors screw up, there is never any accountability or responsibility, and often, the people who were responsible fight tooth and nail to preserve "their entitlements", even when they were well out of order.

I could mention other examples from times when I did work for a semi state, but there's no point, suffice to say that a Minister signed off on something he should not have, and the mess that caused had implications for nearly 7 years, and cost a lot of money they didn't have to sort it all out.

My daughter has a new baby on the way, and in the order of things, I probably won't get to see much of the world that child grows up to work in. I can only hope that the people that are in control of that world have a better attitude towards their responsibilities than the people that are running things now.

In Lonesome Dove

My sister was telling me that a water meter can cause a fire. It could start at the meter and travel along your pipes and into your foundation. Is that true? Scary sh1t.

the groutch

FREETV wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/galway-county-council-water-charges-1746333-Oct2014/

Will all the other County Councils follow suit?
I should hope so.

3 out of the 4 councils in Dublin would easily pass a similar motion.

In Lonesome Dove

http://emfsafetynetwork.org/smart-meters/smart-meter-fires-and-explosions/

Holy ****. Just after googling and read this about meters and fires.

Creative Juices

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

My sister was telling me that a water meter can cause a fire. It could start at the meter and travel along your pipes and into your foundation. Is that true? Scary sh1t.

In Lonesome Dove

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

My sister was telling me that a water meter can cause a fire. It could start at the meter and travel along your pipes and into your foundation. Is that true? Scary sh1t.

Who comes up with this sort of nonsense?