***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

DamagedTrax

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The Thirtieth Amendment of the Constitution (Houses of the Oireachtas Inquiries) Bill 2011 (No. 47 of 2011) was a bill which, if enacted, would have amended the Constitution of Ireland "in order to provide for the Houses of the Oireachtas to conduct full inquiries". The bill was passed by both houses of the Oireachtas, but rejected at a referendum held on 27 October 2011.[2]

"Tardy and inadequate" was the description of the information provided to voters from The Irish Council for Civil Liberties.

Irish Steve

OK, so we're up against an issue that the PAC can't go after Tierney, that may not be a bad thing, given how badly we've been served by tribunals in recent times, they've cost a fortune and not done anything to change the system so that the abuses they uncovered can't happen again. Not exactly a good return on investment, but there's nothing new there either.

Can anyone go after Tierney, or are quangos like IW outside of any form of control and regulation? If that is the case, then I'm sorry, the whole can of worms has to be shut down and done away with, there is no way that ANY state quango should be in the position where they are spending MY money, but can't be called to account on how they have spent it.

What's even more worrying is that it appears that Tierney and his cronies are in a position that they can't be removed, can't be challenged about the quality of the job they are doing, and can't be made to account to anyone for their failures or how they are spending the money that they control.

I see some very unacceptable and fundamental flaws in that scenario.

dxhound2005

Irish Steve wrote: »

OK, so we're up against an issue that the PAC can't go after Tierney, that may not be a bad thing, given how badly we've been served by tribunals in recent times, they've cost a fortune and not done anything to change the system so that the abuses they uncovered can't happen again. Not exactly a good return on investment, but there's nothing new there either.

Can anyone go after Tierney, or are quangos like IW outside of any form of control and regulation? If that is the case, then I'm sorry, the whole can of worms has to be shut down and done away with, there is no way that ANY state quango should be in the position where they are spending MY money, but can't be called to account on how they have spent it.

What's even more worrying is that it appears that Tierney and his cronies are in a position that they can't be removed, can't be challenged about the quality of the job they are doing, and can't be made to account to anyone for their failures or how they are spending the money that they control.

I see some very unacceptable and fundamental flaws in that scenario.

Do you not place any faith at all in the Regulator?

http://www.cer.ie/water

Satriale

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do you not place any faith at all in the Regulator?

http://www.cer.ie/water

If you are in favour of privatisation then the CER will do a great job. If their work at the ESB is to be considered, Ireland will become one of the most expensive countries in which to take a p1ss, and consequently a big juicy morsel for investors to make money.

"IW, we turn their thirst into your cash" *




*public licence, free to use.

Going Forward

Irish Steve wrote: »

What's even more worrying is that it appears that Tierney and his cronies are in a position that they can't be removed, can't be challenged about the quality of the job they are doing, and can't be made to account to anyone for their failures or how they are spending the money that they control.

Fine Gael's new way of doing business, open and transparent, the same as Fianna Fail's.

Irish Water is an embarrassment and a poor reflection on all concerned.

It won't be scrapped, that would be a political admittance of failure, but it will be rebranded at no expense to the taxpayer from a confidential deal offered by one of their "concerned" consultancy partners as part of their original contract.

Going Forward

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do you not place any faith at all in the Regulator?

http://www.cer.ie/water

Not without an Ombudsman.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ombudsman-i-should-be-able-to-receive-irish-water-complaints-289527.html

dxhound2005

Going Forward wrote: »

Not without an Ombudsman.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ombudsman-i-should-be-able-to-receive-irish-water-complaints-289527.html

This was covered in the thread before. I fail to see how suddenly the Ombudsman quango (he is appointed by politicians) is so important. He appears to be on an empire building exercise. Has his quango got surplus staff sitting around ready to take on complaints about water, gas and electricity? Or does he envisage having to hire more to duplicate the work already under the remit of the Regulator. Some quangos good, some quangos bad?

gladrags

dxhound2005 wrote: »

This was covered in the thread before. I fail to see how suddenly the Ombudsman quango (he is appointed by politicians) is so important. He appears to be on an empire building exercise. Has his quango got surplus staff sitting around ready to take on complaints about water, gas and electricity? Or does he envisage having to hire more to duplicate the work already under the remit of the Regulator. Some quangos good, some quangos bad?

It's a sad state of affairs when you need to differentiate between good and bad quangos.

All quangos are surely not in the public interest.

Including Irish Water.

Or is it,that in your opinion,Irish water is a good quango?

dxhound2005

gladrags wrote: »

It's a sad state of affairs when you need to differentiate between good and bad quangos.

All quangos are surely not in the public interest.

Including Irish Water.

Or is it,that in your opinion,Irish water is a good quango?

I will judge it in a few years. There is a lot of hysteria going on about trivial things, depending on what so called story makes the press. By way of camparison how would you judge some of the ones on this list? Would you really know any more about their workings compared to IW, if some so called journalist is not publishing stories about their wages or expenses every day.

http://quangos-ireland.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Irish_Quangos

Little CuChulainn

Irish Steve wrote: »

At least if it was a private company, they'd have to be open to being scrutinised, if the information given to the PAC is correct, IW is answerable to nobody, and can't be checked up on or looked at in any way as things are right now.

That's a super quango with a structure that means they can do what they like with pensions, bonuses, expenses, and all the other unacceptable practices that have been seen over the last while, and if they at the same time screw up the job they are supposed to be doing, they can't be fired either.

Sorry, but if that's the sort of structure that's in place right now, it would be better privatised, at least the shareholders would be able to say "NO" to some of the extremes that are possibly happening in the quango situation, and fire the people at the top if they are not performing..

I'd much rather have a situation that IW is state owned and controlled, with the executives answerable and accountable to the people of Ireland, but with the way that politics and the state works right now, that's going to be hard to achieve.

Irish Steve wrote: »

OK, so we're up against an issue that the PAC can't go after Tierney, that may not be a bad thing, given how badly we've been served by tribunals in recent times, they've cost a fortune and not done anything to change the system so that the abuses they uncovered can't happen again. Not exactly a good return on investment, but there's nothing new there either.

Can anyone go after Tierney, or are quangos like IW outside of any form of control and regulation? If that is the case, then I'm sorry, the whole can of worms has to be shut down and done away with, there is no way that ANY state quango should be in the position where they are spending MY money, but can't be called to account on how they have spent it.

What's even more worrying is that it appears that Tierney and his cronies are in a position that they can't be removed, can't be challenged about the quality of the job they are doing, and can't be made to account to anyone for their failures or how they are spending the money that they control.

I see some very unacceptable and fundamental flaws in that scenario.

Irish Water is a company limited by shares. The shareholders can vote on any issue for the company, including replacing the board of directors. In the case of IW, the state is the only shareholder and, as such, have complete control over the company. In fact, one could argue that they have more control than over a quango because they don't have to deal with public sector unions and regulations. Any claim, either by the government or anti-IW groups that IW is somehow unaccountable or uncontrollable is completely false. It is working as exactly as it was designed.

arse..biscuits

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why would you presume that?


It's humour based in reality anyway. The 3 or 4 people on my Facebook feed that throw up all the links to the protests and the like had pics from the march earlier in the month with their kids with them. A couple had the kids holding signs.

I had my kids with me at the last march, and they're coming to the next one.
I'm not leaving them at home with a baby sitter to keep you happy.

arse..biscuits

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I haven't expressed any pro Iw opinions at all. I do however believe paying for water is a good thing and metering should be introduced.

Is paying close to half a million euro per year for car expenses for IW staff a good thing?

shinzon

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It is working as exactly as it was designed.

Really so paying bonuses for underperforming staff is working exactly as designed, the possibility of outside contractors being hired to turn down the pressure due to the fact the council workers are refusing to do it is working exactly as designed, car allowance is working exactly as designed.

If the government is the majority shareholder why aren't they turning round to the board and telling them to stop these fat cat perks for a bloated quango that's not fit for purpose.

And letting things lie and judging things in a few years will be to late, nows the time to act not in a few years when privatisation happens and youll be paying 2 to 3 times more for your water when not if government pulls its subvention and sells it off

Shin

mfceiling

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do you not place any faith at all in the Regulator?

http://www.cer.ie/water

Probably the same faith we had in the financial regulator...and we all saw how that panned out.

Irish Steve

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do you not place any faith at all in the Regulator?

http://www.cer.ie/water

In a word, NO, and that's based on the results I've seen with Eircom, other cable companies, the aviation regulator, and similar entities, the number of times their response to a complaint is "it's outside our remit", or similar doesn't bear thinking about.

The other issue is that for Electricity, we have alternatives, for supply, (although distribution is a monopoly) which does at least mean some options and competition. Water will be a total monopoly, and that's never a good thing with an essential.

At this point, I have zero faith in semi states, especially of the IW sort, given what we've seen over the last couple of decades in terms of all the issues that have been revealed about corruption, self serving, and all the other issues that appear to be untouchable.

Little CuChulainn

shinzon wrote: »

Really so paying bonuses for underperforming staff is working exactly as designed, the possibility of outside contractors being hired to turn down the pressure due to the fact the council workers are refusing to do it is working exactly as designed, car allowance is working exactly as designed.

If the government is the majority shareholder why aren't they turning round to the board and telling them to stop these fat cat perks for a bloated quango that's not fit for purpose.

And letting things lie and judging things in a few years will be to late, nows the time to act not in a few years when privatisation happens and youll be paying 2 to 3 times more for your water when not if government pulls its subvention and sells it off

Shin

Like I said, it's working as designed. I suggest you ask the government why they are letting the bonuses and car perks go on but I don't see why you have to. FG have been all about taking care of their own since they got in and immediately started breaking their own pay caps.

No government will get rid of IW now that it is in. But hopefully this one or the next will overhaul it.

Phoebas

gladrags wrote: »

It's a sad state of affairs when you need to differentiate between good and bad quangos.

All quangos are surely not in the public interest.

Including Irish Water.

Or is it,that in your opinion,Irish water is a good quango?

Every single one of them? That's a pretty extremist view to take.

shinzon

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Like I said, it's working as designed. I suggest you ask the government why they are letting the bonuses and car perks go on but I don't see why you have to. FG have been all about taking care of their own since they got in and immediately started breaking their own pay caps.

No government will get rid of IW now that it is in. But hopefully this one or the next will overhaul it.

and that's why this country is the way it is, just get on with everything and hope for the best, not even try and block it just accept the inevitability and **** it just more money to pay out.

the government were and are scared ****less since the march, if no one actually marched the sweetners and bribes there throwing our way wouldn't have been even contemplated so don't tell me it cant be beaten. The one thing a politician can be guaranteed is there in it for there seat if theres a threat to that and there fat pensions they'll cause uproar. Galway county council voted to call on the government to immediately suspend the roll out of charges. A Senator is bringing a bill before the seanad to immediately abolish the need for ppsn numbers. You sense a pattern here chip, chip, chip as Tesco says every little helps

Shin

Little CuChulainn

shinzon wrote: »

and that's why this country is the way it is, just get on with everything and hope for the best, not even try and block it just accept the inevitability and **** it just more money to pay out.

the government were and are scared ****less since the march, if no one actually marched the sweetners and bribes there throwing our way wouldn't have been even contemplated so don't tell me it cant be beaten. The one thing a politician can be guaranteed is there in it for there seat if theres a threat to that and there fat pensions they'll cause uproar. Galway county council voted to call on the government to immediately suspend the roll out of charges. A Senator is bringing a bill before the seanad to immediately abolish the need for ppsn numbers. You sense a pattern here chip, chip, chip as Tesco says every little helps

Shin

I wouldn't block it because I believe a company like IW is needed and water charges are important for a number of reasons. But I want it to be run well so I will object to undeserved bonuses and unnecessary cars.

shinzon

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I wouldn't block it because I believe a company like IW is needed and water charges are important for a number of reasons. But I want it to be run well so I will object to undeserved bonuses and unnecessary cars.

you must have a lot of faith that any of the money collected will go anywhere near the upkeep of the pipes

Shin

Little CuChulainn

shinzon wrote: »

you must have a lot of faith that any of the money collected will go anywhere near the upkeep of the pipes

Shin

Ireland doesn't have a hypothecated tax system. For all the talk of ringfencing funds we hear, it still remains a reality that all money collected in taxes and charges goes to a central fund and is distributed via budgets to different departments. The difference in having a IW set up as a company is that all funds remain with Irish Water unless paid out in the form of declared dividends to the state as shareholders. A much more efficient, reliable and transparent method of ensuring the funds collected for water be used by Irish Water.

Banjo String

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Ireland doesn't have a hypothecated tax system. For all the talk of ringfencing funds we hear, it still remains a reality that all money collected in taxes and charges goes to a central fund and is distributed via budgets to different departments. The difference in having a IW set up as a company is that all funds remain with Irish Water unless paid out in the form of declared dividends to the state as shareholders. A much more efficient, reliable and transparent method of ensuring the funds collected for water be used by Irish Water .

Like the local property tax?

Finance Minister Michael Noonan has admitted that €490m meant for local services is to be diverted into Irish Water.

Mr Noonan said a “subvention” was being made from the local government fund to go to the water metering company.

He said Revenue collects the money and the total property tax returns are then transferred to the Local Government Fund for services.

People Before Profit TD Richard Boyd Barrett said proceeds from the property tax were being used to set up Irish Water. “The Government, in levying this unpopular, regressive austerity tax, tried to neutralise opposition to it by saying that all the moneys collected would go back into local areas and services,” said Mr Boyd Barrett. “We then discovered not a single cent would go towards local services, but would be used to meet the start-up costs of Irish Water.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/490m-meant-for-local-services-diverted-to-irish-water-255608.html

renegademaster

Banjo String wrote: »

Like the local property tax?



http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/490m-meant-for-local-services-diverted-to-irish-water-255608.html

and we're supposed to believe that if we pay the double water tax that irish water will divert €400mn towards the roads in 2015!! ROFL!! :rolleyes:

Banjo String

renegademaster wrote: »

and we're supposed to believe that if we pay the double water tax that irish water will divert €400mn towards the roads in 2015!! ROFL!! :rolleyes:

Well when you're constantly told blatant lies by the people in government, why do they seem offended when you doubt their word?

Little CuChulainn

renegademaster wrote: »

and we're supposed to believe that if we pay the double water tax that irish water will divert €400mn towards the roads in 2015!! ROFL!! :rolleyes:

Who has suggested it would? The money made by Irish Water should be used to address the fact that half the water they pump will be lost. Local services will be funded by future exchequer returns, as they always have

Tony EH

Irish Steve wrote: »

If water charges were so wrong, or so unfair, do you really think that the rest of Europe would be accepting them without question? I don't see marches and protests in the media across Europe, so maybe the protests here are being orchestrated by interests that are not really water related in the first place.

If it had been set up correctly with just a fair metering system and people ONLY had to pay for what they use, there would have been far less outcry.

It's the WAY it's been set up in Ireland that's the main issue for the majority of people. People don't want to have their water in the hands of a for profit quango, complete with perks and outrageous bonuses, that's being ripened for privatisation and run by the likes of John Tierney and Denis O'Brien.

If it was a simple case of the govt. installing a metering system in people's homes and charging a fair price, most people wouldn't really bat an eyelid.

But, of course, this being Ireland and being run by a shower of cünts, that was never going to happen, was it.

People are RIGHTFULLY angry about Irish Water because from its very inception it's been a farce based on lies, misinformation and greed.

Tony EH

Irish Steve wrote: »

At least if it was a private company, they'd have to be open to being scrutinised...

You mean like Greyhound?

Who have their details in the Isle of Man so they can avoid scrutiny.

Don't be so naïve.

Tony EH

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I wouldn't block it because I believe a company like IW is needed and water charges are important for a number of reasons. But I want it to be run well so I will object to undeserved bonuses and unnecessary cars.

But, you'll still pay for them, which means your "objection" is completely worthless.

dxhound2005

Tony EH wrote: »

If it was a simple case of the govt. installing a metering system in people's homes and charging a fair price, most people wouldn't really bat an eyelid.

Of all the strange things which I read here that must be the strangest yet. Every time a government tried to introduce water charges since 1977 there was mass protest. Along the lines of We are already paying for Water. Why would things be any different in your "simple" plan?

Tony EH

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Of all the strange things which I read here that must be the strangest yet. Every time a government tried to introduce water charges since 1977 there was mass protest.

THIS time around.

Besides IW was their solution to avoiding "mass protests" ?

For fück sake...

:rolleyes: