***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Little CuChulainn

listermint wrote: »

What failed status quo??

The only failed part was that money that was meant to be for the infrastructure was pushed into other mismanaged slushy funds. FAS, HSA amongst them.

The infrastructure can and was being managed on tight budgets by existing councils. But they were devoid of funding. Address the spending and the qwangoes like you said you would FG which will free up cash to go where its meant to go.

The problems with the water network existed long before council budgets got tightened. It's just not the kind of network that can be maintained by 30 local authorities acting independently. Imagine if you were brought into hospital after a bad car crash and instead of getting a surgical team you got 30 first aiders each with responsibility for a different part of your body. Sure they might be able to stop the bleeding here and there but you'd still be ****ed.

listermint wrote: »

I dont know,


Do you ?

Have you asked anyone or are you just making this crap up. That people are protesting due to a few snap headlines.

Have you even been following this story since the start of the year ?


Il bite. Outline all the great things Irish Water has achieved so far to warrant your unabated admiration..............

The company was only incorporated about 18 months ago. It was only finished being set up this year. It still has not taken over many of the areas it will eventually have responsibility. What you are asking is the equivalent of going down to a shopping center under construction and giving out that it's a waste of money because the shops aren't open. Investment never provides immediate dividends.

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Fair points, thanks for your input. It seems to me that Irish Water has been one of the biggest PR disasters in the last 30-40 years. They had an opportunity to do this right and have completely thrown that opportunity away with their reckless spending and total arrogance. A standing charge obviously wouldnt have been ideal but at least they would've been making money to put into the water infrastructure, which as far as I'm aware, is the main cause of the wasting of water due to leaking pipes. Its going to be interesting to see what happens!

It's not the biggest PR disaster. People always say this whenever they think something might cost them. The property tax, the M50, Corrib gas, the ban on turf cutting. I could go on listing but I think you get the point. There is a very vocal section of Irish people that are almost incapable of looking at the big picture when it comes to any decisions on a national scale.

hju6

fxotoole wrote: »

Direct debits are full access, as you have no control over how much the utility can take out of your account.

No they are not full access,
are you saying they know how much you spend each month?
Do they get your bank statement?

Little CuChulainn

hju6 wrote: »

No they are not full access,
are you saying they know how much you spend each month?
Do they get your bank statement?

Providing a ppsn is much safer than providing bank details. A ppsn is simply an identifier. It's like giving someone your phone number. They can check if its yours easily enough but they don't get access to anything on your phone just by having it.

the groutch

for those who were giving about at Garda resources being "wasted" protecting meter installers.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1029/655530-irish-water/

Grandpa Hassan

hju6 wrote: »

After this debacle no one is going to be elected or re-elected by going any where near water charges.

No major party will have a straight elimination of water charges in their manifesto. The only debate is about the execution / structure and level of exemption for the less well off

VinLieger

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Providing a ppsn is much safer than providing bank details. A ppsn is simply an identifier. It's like giving someone your phone number. They can check if its yours easily enough but they don't get access to anything on your phone just by having it.

Exactly the amount of scaremongering going around about what can be done with a PPSN number is unreal, it would almost make you think it was a smokescreen for people who just don't want to pay for their water :P

Guy:Incognito

Banjo String wrote: »

Well if you want to treat it the same as any other utility bill, we'll start with this question.

What other utility company operates a two tiered pricing structure, one price for people who blindly hand over their PPS number, and another pricing tier that punishes those for refusing to hand it over, even though the legality of them actually asking for it is even being doubted by the DSP?

So scrap free allowances and everyone pays for every litre.

Do(or did, nor sure what they still get covered on) oaps have to provide ppsn's to get allowances for phone or any other things?

shinzon

Every single day I look at this thread and its the same thing, going round and round in circles spouting the same pro-anti water mantras, honestly the mods should look at closing this thread because truly what is it accomplishing, absolutely nothing. The anti water meter people will never convince the pro people and vice versa. Its great to have a debate but this is just the same **** over and over.

Either Irish water will be killed off or it wont

Shin

fxotoole

hju6 wrote: »

No they are not full access,
are you saying they know how much you spend each month?
Do they get your bank statement?

Fair enough, it's not "full" access, but signing up to a direct debit gives them pretty much carte blanch to take as much as they like out of your account.

hju6

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

No major party will have a straight elimination of water charges in their manifesto. The only debate is about the execution / structure and level of exemption for the less well off

Regaining the trust of the people to do it properly is going to be the stumbling block
And I do not see any party capable of that

fxotoole

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So scrap free allowances and everyone pays for every litre.

Do(or did, nor sure what they still get covered on) oaps have to provide ppsn's to get allowances for phone or any other things?

Yes. The Household Benefits Package application form asks for your PPSN:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/hb1.pdf

Little CuChulainn

I suppose the easiest way to satisfy the ppsn fearmongers would be to move the registration of allowances to social welfare for processing. You send your application to the, they confirm your allowances and then notify IW of the house occupancy.

fxotoole

shinzon wrote: »

Every single day I look at this thread and its the same thing, going round and round in circles spouting the same pro-anti water mantras, honestly the mods should look at closing this thread because truly what is it accomplishing, absolutely nothing. The anti water meter people will never convince the pro people and vice versa. Its great to have a debate but this is just the same **** over and over.

Same thing happened with the Household Charge.

hju6

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Providing a ppsn is much safer than providing bank details. A ppsn is simply an identifier. It's like giving someone your phone number. They can check if its yours easily enough but they don't get access to anything on your phone just by having it.

A direct debit is not full access to your bank account though
That's what the post was about not pps nos
Thanks

Banjo String

fxotoole wrote: »

Direct debits are full access, as you have no control over how much the utility can take out of your account.

Jesus, you must let the viper direct debit you so.

Pretty sure Vodafone, 3, Sky, Airtricity etc all either email me, or post out a bill to me with my estimated direct debit amount .. And what date they will be debiting my account.

If it's way above the norm, I'll question it, no explanation or resolution , I'll instruct the bank to cancel it.

What way do yours operate?

fxotoole

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I suppose the easiest way to satisfy the ppsn fearmongers would be to move the registration of allowances to social welfare for processing. You send your application to the, they confirm your allowances and then notify IW of the house occupancy.

Social Welfare would still need your PPSN to verify it's you.

i.e. How do they tell two different David Murphy's with the same place of birth and same date of birth apart?

fxotoole

Banjo String wrote: »

Jesus, you must let the viper direct debit you so.

Pretty sure Vodafone, 3, Sky, Airtricity etc all either email me, or post out a bill to me with my estimated direct debit amount ..

If it's way above the norm, I'll question it, no explanation or resolution , I'll instruct the bank to cancel it.

But there's still the potential for it to be "way above the norm", unlike a standing order.

Guy:Incognito

Just going back to the reasons for peoples objections to the charges. The guy from right2water was on the radio earlier and he seems to be claiming the protests as theirs so if thats the case can we assume their reasons are the peoples too? They'd be the only group whos banners/posters I can remember off hand anyway.

Heres whats in their about section:

About the campaign
The United Nations “Recognizes the right to safe and clean drinking water and sanitation as a human right that is essential for the full enjoyment of life and all human rights” – UN Resolution 64/292, July 2010.

Who are we? If you believe that water is a human right then we are you!

The provision of sufficient water and sanitation is an essential public service and a human right recognised by the United Nations. It should be freely available to all regardless of wealth or income.

All citizens need clean drinking water and quality sanitation. Right2Water.ie is a public campaign by activists, citizens, community groups, political parties/individuals and trade unionists who are calling for the Government to recognise and legislate for access to water as a human right. We are demanding the Government abolish the planned introduction of water charges.

Why we’re against water charges
Water charges will discriminate against working people and the unemployed in favour of the wealthy and are another regressive tax taking vital money out of the pockets of people and out of our economy. Our public water system is already paid for through general taxation which is progressive and we wish it to remain that way.

They just seem against paying for water from what I can see.

Banjo String

fxotoole wrote: »

But there's still the potential for it to be "way above the norm", unlike a standing order.

Which you will be notified in the form of a bill, usually two weeks before the date of the debit.

A direct debit agreement isn't like handing the company your atm card and pincode and telling them "work away lads".

fxotoole

Banjo String wrote: »

Which you will be notified in the form of a bill, usually two weeks before the date of the debit.

A direct debit agreement isn't like handing the company your atm card and pincode and telling them "work away lads".

I disagree. Let's leave it at that and get the thread back on topic.

hju6

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Just going back to the reasons for peoples objections to the charges. The guy from right2water was on the radio earlier and he seems to be claiming the protests as theirs so if thats the case can we assume their reasons are the peoples too? They'd be the only group whos banners/posters I can remember off hand anyway.

Heres whats in their about section:

About the campaign
The United Nations “Recognizes the right to safe and clean drinking water and sanitation as a human right that is essential for the full enjoyment of life and all human rights” – UN Resolution 64/292, July 2010.

Who are we? If you believe that water is a human right then we are you!

The provision of sufficient water and sanitation is an essential public service and a human right recognised by the United Nations. It should be freely available to all regardless of wealth or income.

All citizens need clean drinking water and quality sanitation. Right2Water.ie is a public campaign by activists, citizens, community groups, political parties/individuals and trade unionists who are calling for the Government to recognise and legislate for access to water as a human right. We are demanding the Government abolish the planned introduction of water charges.

Why we’re against water charges
Water charges will discriminate against working people and the unemployed in favour of the wealthy and are another regressive tax taking vital money out of the pockets of people and out of our economy. Our public water system is already paid for through general taxation which is progressive and we wish it to remain that way.

They just seem against paying for water from what I can see.

Not really when it's allready paid for via taxation

fxotoole

hju6 wrote: »

Not really when it's allready paid for via taxation

Not anymore.

BoJack Horseman

hju6 wrote: »

Not really when it's allready paid for via taxation

Everyone paying for themselves is absolutely better than some paying for all.

listermint

fxotoole wrote: »

Not anymore.

It still is btw.

Little CuChulainn

fxotoole wrote: »

Social Welfare would still need your PPSN to verify it's you.

i.e. How do they tell two different David Murphy's with the same place of birth and same date of birth apart?

Like I said, you send your application to Social Welfare instead of IW. They confirm your pps numbers and then notify Irish Water of the number of occupants in each home.

BoJack Horseman

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Like I said, you send your application to Social Welfare instead of IW. They confirm your pps numbers and then notify Irish Water of the number of occupants in each home.

Biblically slow process though.

It would however allay peoples fears that IW will use their PPS number to take out a mortgage or sell it to anybody.

Guy:Incognito

listermint wrote: »

It still is btw.

We should have a nice big budget surplus so......


It seems to have been missed the last couple of times but I'll ask again. Have those tax additions covered every cent spent on water to date plus asurplus to cover the infrastructure investment that everyone agreeds is needed?

BoJack Horseman

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

We should have a nice big budget surplus so......


It seems to have been missed the last couple of times but I'll ask again. Have those tax additions covered every cent spent on water to date plus asurplus to parrot the infrastructure investment that everyone agreeds is needed?

What taxation is ringfenced for water?

They spent €1.2bn on water last year.

knarkypants

the groutch wrote: »

for those who were giving about at Garda resources being "wasted" protecting meter installers.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1029/655530-irish-water/

Here is another report about the incident which claims the worker was trespassing on the mans property. No where in either article does it mention the man was protesting against the water meters.

http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/irish-water-worker-flees-after-homeowner-brandishes-shotgun#.VFCvVqCwqG8.facebook

Tony EH

shinzon wrote: »

Every single day I look at this thread and its the same thing, going round and round in circles spouting the same pro-anti water mantras, honestly the mods should look at closing this thread because truly what is it accomplishing, absolutely nothing. The anti water meter people will never convince the pro people and vice versa. Its great to have a debate but this is just the same **** over and over.

Either Irish water will be killed off or it wont

Shin

There's no point in closing the thread as someone is bound to simply start up another.

It's a current issue that people are right to be interested in.