***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Going Forward

Irish Steve wrote: »

It would help if you quoted current information, that first site is pre 2010.

Not sure if anything would have changed dramatically in 4 years.

Irish Steve wrote: »

Having said that, it was interesting to see that the EU was expecting member states to use price as an incentive to "encourage" thrift in water usage BEFORE 2010, so the fact that we're only just getting into charging in 2015 means that yet again, our politicians pulled yet another stroke by getting away with it for this long.

Ireland has plenty of water, that's not the problem, what's become unsustainable is the level of loss from the network after treatment, which is causing increasing problems as they are getting worse. It's also horribly expensive, if we were using the lost water, we'd not need to be extracting, or treating, anything like the levels we are. Even if the leaks were fixed, it won't be long before water from the Shannon will be needed on the East coast to ensure long term continuity of supply for both domestic and industrial users.

Long term, architects need to be designing houses that don't use potable water for every service, it's not needed for a large number of things.

Unfortunately, the level of leaks, in spite of the repetitive conservation talk from Irish Water won't really change before I retire.

The talk is big, but a leak repair target of 1% per year tells me that this can't be very much better than the regime they are replacing.

Maybe they know more than you and I, but I would have thought repairing leaks returning 40% back to the system might be a good idea, deserving of more than a 1% annual target.

Phoebas

Are we back to the 'it rains a lot, so potable water should be free' argument?

I thought that was dispatched with in the first two pages.

chicorytip

Get these anarchists off our streets ! The usual left wing,anti-austerity,anti-social,mostly unemployed cohort augmented by Sinn Fein youth wing yobbos. Tomorrows mooted "protests" will,in all likelihood,result in one pathetic damp squib.The majority of us who willingly pay for our utilities subjected,yet again,to the bleatings of those who refuse to pay for anything.

Curly Judge

Going Forward wrote: »

Is there something in my post you'd like to dispute?

Well yes,there is, as a matter of fact.
Potable water is no more plentiful in Ireland than it is in Colorado for instance.
In both places it has to be extracted , stored, treated , sterilized and pumped through pipes to its final destination.
Otherwise it is not potable water.
It may be lake water, river water, or ice melt but it is not potable.

Bongalongherb

Phoebas wrote: »

Are we back to the 'it rains a lot, so potable water should be free' argument?

I thought that was dispatched with in the first two pages.

Ah here, enjoy your job in Irish water, and enjoy this enormous protest tomorrow from real Irish folk that have had enough. You party on though.

Irish Steve

Going Forward wrote: »

Unfortunately, the level of leaks, in spite of the repetitive conservation talk from Irish Water won't really change before I retire.

The talk is big, but a leak repair target of 1% per year tells me that this can't be very much better than the regime they are replacing.

Maybe they know more than you and I, but I would have thought repairing leaks returning 40% back to the system might be a good idea, deserving of more than a 1% annual target.

Their return on leak rates is dire because they're using the old system, IW is just another level of semi state mismanagement quango on top of the old inefficient local authority structure. That's one of the (many) reasons why I'm very unhappy about the way that IW was created, and the manner in which they're operating.

The whole focus of IW is wrong, and needs to be fundamentally changed to make IW an accountable organisation that is customer focussed, and deals with the issues that are already apparent in the system that they are now responsible for. That's not happening, they are too busy sorting out their bonus schemes, private gyms, car schemes, and other bonus packages, and doing exactly the same as we've been seeing over the last 20 years, sticking their own snouts deep into the public trough and not dealing with the job they are there to do.

Unacceptable. and the sooner the politicians grasp that fact, the better for all concerned.

Cantona's Collars

chicorytip wrote: »

Get these anarchists off our streets ! The usual left wing,anti-austerity,anti-social,mostly unemployed cohort augmented by Sinn Fein youth wing yobbos. Tomorrows mooted "protests" will,in all likelihood,result in one pathetic damp squib.The majority of us who willingly pay for our utilities subjected,yet again,to the bleatings of those who refuse to pay for anything.

Another on their high horse,I suppose it goes well with your ivory tower.:rolleyes:

Going Forward

Phoebas wrote: »

Are we back to the 'it rains a lot, so potable water should be free' argument?

I thought that was dispatched with in the first two pages.

No, just discussing why the leak repair rate agreed upon is 1% above zero when water conservation is placed so high on the official agenda.

Satriale

chicorytip wrote: »

Get these anarchists off our streets ! The usual left wing,anti-austerity,anti-social,mostly unemployed cohort augmented by Sinn Fein youth wing yobbos. Tomorrows mooted "protests" will,in all likelihood,result in one pathetic damp squib.The majority of us who willingly pay for our utilities subjected,yet again,to the bleatings of those who refuse to pay for anything.

Ye do a share of bleating yourselves, in fact it never seems to end.

I'd wager that the majority of marchers tomorrow are gainfully employed and are sick of paying for the likes of your "free" water allowances.

Going Forward

Curly Judge wrote: »

Well yes,there is, as a matter of fact.
Potable water is no more plentiful in Ireland than it is in Colorado for instance.
In both places it has to be extracted , stored, treated , sterilized and pumped through pipes to its final destination.
Otherwise it is not potable water.
It may be lake water, river water, or ice melt but it is not potable.

That's bringing a lot to the table.

Ireland and Colarado have good resources of potable water.

Next please.

Cantona's Collars

Satriale wrote: »

Ye do a share of bleating yourselves, in fact it never seems to end.

I'd wager that the majority of marchers tomorrow are gainfully employed and are sick of paying for the likes of your "free" water allowances.

They haven't copped on to the fact that the protest is organised on a Saturday for a reason.

Satriale

Curly Judge wrote: »

Well yes,there is, as a matter of fact.
Potable water is no more plentiful in Ireland than it is in Colorado for instance.
In both places it has to be extracted , stored, treated , sterilized and pumped through pipes to its final destination.
Otherwise it is not potable water.
It may be lake water, river water, or ice melt but it is not potable.

Just because water hasnt been chemically treated does not make it undrinkable. The vast majority of the 100 billion humans who have lived on this planet, didnt even know what water treatment was.

Irish Steve

Going Forward wrote: »

That's bringing a lot to the table.

Ireland and Colarado have good resources of potable water.

Next please.

Not quite. Ireland and Colorado have good resources of water. Ireland has major problems in processing that water to make it potable, and even bigger problems in then distributing that water to the eventual end user. At present, there's a loss of 40% from the network, that's unsustainable.

That's only half the story, the water that's not leaking and does get used by the consumer then has to be dealt with as waste water, and that's even more expensive than the delivery, and for years, was even more neglected than the supply side.

What makes it worse is that there are also increasing pressures to make the waste treatment side even more effective, which is another cost burden.

Much of the industry that's being attracted to Ireland at present is things like pharmaceuticals.and other high tech industries. and they require significant quantities of potable water, for which they pay substantial sums, but they HAVE to have that water to operate, and it will not be good to be saying to them, sorry, we can't supply you today because we don't have the supply available.

Here in Meath, there have been many occasions where the pressure has been reduced overnight in order to allow the local storage to catch up and refill, because the demand for water from the town was more than the supply could deliver, and for years, the project to upgrade the supply was on hold, central government "offered" a 90% grant to install the new supply, but the Local authority in Navan couldn't find the 10% that they had to put in for the work to be done. There are other issues, like excessive hardness, and discolouration due to excessive demand stirring up silt in under size mains, the hardness needs local softening to avoid destroying the plumbing fittings, but that's for another day.

I was watching the discussion on the Late Late, and it's clear that IW know they are in deep trouble, as do the Government, the pity is that it's taken them so long to get the clear message that their lack of engagement with the people that they are supposed to be representing is so fundamentally failed.

Short of the people at the top of IW being removed, I don't see any way back for that organisation, there have been so many mistakes and failures across the whole organisation, its clear that the only solution is to find people who are capable of doing the job, and doing it in an acceptable
manner and for a decent salary that doesn't include all the trimmings and frills that the semi state sector sees as it's birthright. Those days are over, and the sooner the people at the top recognise that and accept it, the better for all concerned.

Bongalongherb

This is going to be amazing tomorrow. The amount of marches in a lot of counties and the cities tomorrow will bring in international news reporting. I see Australia has a keen interest with this, as do many others. This is going to be the Irish Citizen telling the political servants of government how to get stuffed.

adrian92

Perhaps not a new observation.



What is the purpose of Irish Water?

(We have permitted nearly one billion spent).

Maybe throw more of our money after bad.

1 . Water conservation?
2. Raise money to fix leaky pipes
3. Create a Cash cow


4. Some idea our wonderful government , with such an insightful wisdom do do something creative to help us? Perhaps a government does act in the interest of the populace?

sonofenoch

How many who complain about the prospect of paying for water have no problem paying for Sky tv or Upc be it for sports movies or broadband? a payment that in all likelihood will be far greater per annum than water charges (many people pay as much or more than 600 euros a year to Sky without thinking about it) .......I think much like the bin charges this won't be as bad as feared, fear of the unknown

Bongalongherb

sonofenoch wrote: »

How many who complain about the prospect of paying for water have no problem paying for Sky tv or Upc be it for sports movies or broadband? a payment that in all likelihood will be far greater per annum than water charges (many people pay as much or more than 600 euros a year to Sky without thinking about it) .......I think much like the bin charges this won't be as bad as feared, fear of the unknown

Is that you Michael ?.

Irish Steve

Satriale wrote: »

Just because water hasnt been chemically treated does not make it undrinkable. The vast majority of the 100 billion humans who have lived on this planet, didnt even know what water treatment was.

And every day of the week, we are hounded on our TVs by adverts pleading for "just €2 per month" to stop the children dying because they've been drinking dirty water, etc.

It's your choice if you use water that's delivered to your house by pipe, or to use an alternative supply. If you want to live in an urban area, then the choice made by society in this country is that water will be provided to the house, and the waste water will be removed and treated to ensure that you don't either fall ill yourself, or cause illness to others in your immediate vicinity.

The Romans started using the concept over 2000 years ago, and it's been refined and improved over that 2000 years, and like it or not, if you want to live in an urban community, you WILL be paying for your water and waste treatment services going forward, like most other people in civilised countries across the world.

Going Forward

Irish Steve wrote: »

Much of the industry that's being attracted to Ireland at present is things like pharmaceuticals.and other high tech industries. and they require significant quantities of potable water, for which they pay substantial sums, but they HAVE to have that water to operate, and it will not be good to be saying to them, sorry, we can't supply you today because we don't have the supply available.

Here in Meath, there have been many occasions where the pressure has been reduced overnight in order to allow the local storage to catch up and refill, because the demand for water from the town was more than the supply could deliver, and for years, the project to upgrade the supply was on hold, central government "offered" a 90% grant to install the new supply, but the Local authority in Navan couldn't find the 10% that they had to put in for the work to be done. There are other issues, like excessive hardness, and discolouration due to excessive demand stirring up silt in under size mains, the hardness needs local softening to avoid destroying the plumbing fittings, but that's for another day.

.

And the public charges are approximately twice those for commercial industrial quantity users.

Conservation argument completely out the window with plausible suggestion that the general public is subsidising industrial water charges.

Cantona's Collars

sonofenoch wrote: »

How many who complain about the prospect of paying for water have no problem paying for Sky tv or Upc be it for sports movies or broadband? a payment that in all likelihood will be far greater per annum than water charges (many people pay as much or more than 600 euros a year to Sky without thinking about it) .......I think much like the bin charges this won't be as bad as feared, fear of the unknown

They don't decide to charge us twice or force their services upon the population.They are also clear about what they intend to do in the future.Companies like Sky/UPC etc. also strive for innovation and improvement.
IW hasn't shown an inkling of these traits and instead of a new,improved way of doing things they are continuing to use the old system but are charging the Irish people for the privilege.In a twisted way we have to applaud them for making something old look shiny & new then charge us a premium for it.All said,it's actually a con job on a massive scale.

Curly Judge

Going Forward wrote: »

And the public charges are approximately twice those for commercial industrial quantity users.

Conservation argument completely out the window with plausible suggestion that the general public is subsidising industrial water charges.

Ever heard of a thing called rates?

Satriale

Irish Steve wrote: »

And every day of the week, we are hounded on our TVs by adverts pleading for "just €2 per month" to stop the children dying because they've been drinking dirty water, etc.

It's your choice if you use water that's delivered to your house by pipe, or to use an alternative supply. If you want to live in an urban area, then the choice made by society in this country is that water will be provided to the house, and the waste water will be removed and treated to ensure that you don't either fall ill yourself, or cause illness to others in your immediate vicinity.

The Romans started using the concept over 2000 years ago, and it's been refined and improved over that 2000 years, and like it or not, if you want to live in an urban community, you WILL be paying for your water and waste treatment services going forward, like most other people in civilised countries across the world.

With all due respect, what has that got to do with my post?

nxbyveromdwjpg

Irish Water have drafted in 100's of temporary staff, they are apparently going to install every water meter tomorrow in problematic areas while the residents are out at the protests.

This is confirmed FACT.

Going Forward

Curly Judge wrote: »

Ever heard of a thing called rates?

Corporation tax rates?

hju6

chicorytip wrote: »

Get these anarchists off our streets ! The usual left wing,anti-austerity,anti-social,mostly unemployed cohort augmented by Sinn Fein youth wing yobbos. Tomorrows mooted "protests" will,in all likelihood,result in one pathetic damp squib.The majority of us who willingly pay for our utilities subjected,yet again,to the bleatings of those who refuse to pay for anything.

You 'majority' who repeatedly vote FF or FG and blindly lead us to this point of revolt by the 'anarchists' only have your own stupidity to blame.

Irish Steve

Satriale wrote: »

With all due respect, what has that got to do with my post?

You commented

Originally Posted by Satriale
Just because water hasnt been chemically treated does not make it undrinkable. The vast majority of the 100 billion humans who have lived on this planet, didnt even know what water treatment was.


I was making the point that untreated water is an issue that does cause problems in some parts of the world, and that here in Ireland, the decision has been made that water (in and out) will be treated, to protect the wider good.

jonski

chicorytip wrote: »

Get these anarchists off our streets ! The usual left wing,anti-austerity,anti-social,mostly unemployed cohort augmented by Sinn Fein youth wing yobbos. Tomorrows mooted "protests" will,in all likelihood,result in one pathetic damp squib.The majority of us who willingly pay for our utilities subjected,yet again,to the bleatings of those who refuse to pay for anything.

I was at the march in Limerick last week , there were about 6000 people , old and young , from all walks of life .

Satriale

Irish Steve wrote: »

You commented

Originally Posted by Satriale
Just because water hasnt been chemically treated does not make it undrinkable. The vast majority of the 100 billion humans who have lived on this planet, didnt even know what water treatment was.


I was making the point that untreated water is an issue that does cause problems in some parts of the world, and that here in Ireland, the decision has been made that water (in and out) will be treated, to protect the wider good.

Steve, read Curlys post again, he seems to think you have to treat water to drink it, i'm just pointing out that he is absolutely incorrect, and we have 100 billion antecedents backing that up. In fact I spent the first 18 years of my life happily drinking it untreated straight from a hole in the ground and to this day i still cant drink the p1ss that passes for water now. (I treat my own water today only because of the irony taste from it, although its still very drinkable untreated.)

While i am sorry for the kids in Africa that may be for another thread, we are already donating E640 million a year to that cause and no doubt the money is being spent as wisely as Irish Water is spending our tax money here.

My name is URL

nm wrote: »

Irish Water have drafted in 100's of temporary staff, they are apparently going to install every water meter tomorrow in problematic areas while the residents are out at the protests.

This is confirmed FACT.

It'd be the best idea they've come up with so far

hju6

hju6 wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryanne84 View Post
Potable water IS a scarce resource.

hju6 wrote: »

Anything to back that up with, with reference to Ireland?[/QUOTE

Quote dxhound2005
"It's not like electricity. There is no national grid for water. Each town and city relies on it's own discrete local water infrastructure. The 100 year old reservoir in Dundalk ran out of capicity in the 1970's and water now comes from a lake in Co Monaghan 20 miles away. It was a very scarce resource in the summer every year when there was none in the taps overnight. Not every town or city could find a similar solution. Dublin may have to go to the Shannon for extra supplies."

There are one million extra people in the country compared to 20 years ago. There could be another million extra by 2050. Potable water could run out in particular towns or cities if the local reservoirs are insufficient to service their increased populations during prolonged dry spells. Predicted to be one of the effects here of global warming."

So how IS potable water scarce then, without the could, may, was, and condescending reference to electricity claptrap

Dundalk ran out of water in the 70s
But somehow without the help of Irish water Dundalk managed to get water from Monaghan.

Dublin may run out of water but might get water from the Shannon.
Or fix the 40% of leaks.

I don't see the point of transporting water from Shannon to Dublin for 40% of the water to leak away