***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

listermint

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What happens if the next government abolishes Irish Water? Won't all of your WHEN it is privatised certainty go out the window then?

That is what we are asking for DX, But it is the same thing you have been ardently fighting against for weeks in this thread.

So what response would you like from me on it ?

Rightwing

BigBrownBear wrote: »

But how does it if they're just going to bill you anyway

Genuinely interested and not trolling.
If someone is determined not to pay...why would they care about the meter

Well IW/Govt have no plan B. So if meters aren't installed, what are they going to do, or when will they come up with an alternative plan. For instance, October is now off, that's 1 month with no bills. They are starting to panic, as the whole shambles is unravelling.

listermint

Irish Steve wrote: »

It's my understanding that the Energy regulator has to approve the water charge.

If the charge goes "through the roof", there will have to be a good reason for it, and that won't include giving shareholders a higher return on their investment.

Yes, the Govt wants water off the books so that it can attract external investment to repair the damage that's been done over the last 25 years of neglect

Supposedly, they are aware of the risks of privatisation, and during the darkest days of the IMF/Troika involvement, they refused to sell off ESB as it would be counter to the national interest, and there were comments on the Late Late on Friday evening that they view IW in the same light, it IS a national asset and needs to remain so.

That said, I've heard plenty of weasel words from politicians over the last while, so the best solution is for the future of IW (and ESB) to be enshrined in the constitution, so that NO political party or Government can sell it off without the specific approval of the electorate via referendum.

Some points half well made, but if you are pointing to regulators in this country to be some form of beacon of light in terms of regulation and control. Then do you really wish for me to point you in the direction of poor enforcement or literal toothless power.

Banking Regulator
Communications Regulator
Garda Ombudsman
Transport Regulation Authority (im sure you have seen the never ending cycle of increases for Bus Tram and Train year on year on year) where does this stop ? Pricing people back into cars. Or is the fact that there more people in employment now that the roads are so f'kn bad.



We have no history of adequate regulation in this country and have an utter stadium full of pointless qwangos who are meant to regulate items under their remit but simple cannot do the task at hand or are their solely to give jobs to FG FF Labour playmates. Look to the recent hike in Nursing registrations to understand how nonsensical and unfounded price increases are decided upon.


Nation of bloody morons.

bigbertieb

suppose it depends on how much it really matters to the people regardless of the weather? no?

donegaLroad

Rightwing wrote: »

Well IW/Govt have no plan B. So if meters aren't installed, what are they going to do, or when will they come up with an alternative plan. For instance, October is now off, that's 1 month with no bills. They are starting to panic, as the whole shambles is unravelling.

Stephen Donnelly TD was interviewed on RTE radio a few weeks back and he said that he had attended a couple of meetings with the Troika as part of the Dail Technical group. He was told by the Troika that there was no immediate pressure to implement the water charges, and if the government could come up with any alternative revenue creating plan other than water charges, the Troika would be on-board so long as it balanced the books.

Yet the government were hell bent on shoving through the water charges asap.

Anyone want to hazard a guess why?

dxhound2005

listermint wrote: »

That is what we are asking for DX, But it is the same thing you have been ardently fighting against for weeks in this thread.

So what response would you like from me on it ?

Just a recognition that you discounted the election in your unequivocal assertion that IW will be privatised. And you did not povide any evidence that it will be privatised even if it continues after 2017. Just an opinion.

Ghost Buster

donegaLroad wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly TD was interviewed on RTE radio a few weeks back and he said that he had attended a couple of meetings with the Troika as part of the Dail Technical group. He was told by the Troika that there was no immediate pressure to implement the water charges, and if the government could come up with any alternative revenue creating plan other than water charges, the Troika would be on-board so long as it balanced the books.

Yet the government were hell bent on shoving through the water charges asap.

Anyone want to hazard a guess why?

one could be that they have given a few good donors jobs in IW

listermint

donegaLroad wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly TD was interviewed on RTE radio a few weeks back and he said that he had attended a couple of meetings with the Troika as part of the Dail Technical group. He was told by the Troika that there was no immediate pressure to implement the water charges, and if the government could come up with any alternative revenue creating plan other than water charges, the Troika would be on-board so long as it balanced the books.

Yet the government were hell bent on shoving through the water charges asap.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why?

Two reasons,

There are many in government positions who are far too close to big business this has been demonstrated countless times, these relationships have been proven in the past to be very much questionable ethically and pretty much corrupt.


Secondly FG dont actually have any ideas, They are following a line of austerity that Germany have told them to. There isnt a creative TD amongst them. If there was we would have some creative planning and ideas that would create jobs rather than taking money out of the real economy by charges and taxation.


They just are not intelligent enough

dxhound2005

Rightwing wrote: »

Well IW/Govt have no plan B. So if meters aren't installed, what are they going to do, or when will they come up with an alternative plan. For instance, October is now off, that's 1 month with no bills. They are starting to panic, as the whole shambles is unravelling.

There is no need for a Plan B. Plan A covers it. No need for a meter to get a bill.



Billing




For both metered and unmetered homes, water services charges will apply from 1st October 2014 and the first bills will be issued to customers from January 2015.

Metered bill:

• Customers will receive a metered bill if a water meter has been installed for their property.

Unmetered bill:

• Customers will receive an unmetered bill if a water meter has not been installed for their property.

listermint

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Just a recognition that you discounted the election in your unequivocal assertion that IW will be privatised. And you did not povide any evidence that it will be privatised even if it continues after 2017. Just an opinion.

It will be privatised if it still exists. It is not an opinion that is baseless, It is fairly calculated based on anything Ministers have said to date. Cagey and talking out of both sides of their mouth whenever it is raised.

But you already know that but choose to deflect. Because you know, thats your thing.

Anymore on your assertion that IW Managers would earn 10 times more out in the field of real private industry ?

Or did you leave that nugget in the fields of 'opps' which you have been a common farmer on.

Tony EH

donegaLroad wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly TD was interviewed on RTE radio a few weeks back and he said that he had attended a couple of meetings with the Troika as part of the Dail Technical group. He was told by the Troika that there was no immediate pressure to implement the water charges, and if the government could come up with any alternative revenue creating plan other than water charges, the Troika would be on-board so long as it balanced the books.

Yet the government were hell bent on shoving through the water charges asap.

Anyone want to hazard a guess why?

Because they are eager to privatise our water (and everything else) and offload it as a responsibility of government.

With a private company running our water supply, government put themselves in an unanswerable position. They can simply say that it's nothing to do with them.

If a government privatise essential social structures, it absolves them of responsibility when things go tits up. They cease to be election issues.

Rightwing

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There is no need for a Plan B. Plan A covers it. No need for a meter to get a bill.



Billing




For both metered and unmetered homes, water services charges will apply from 1st October 2014 and the first bills will be issued to customers from January 2015.

Metered bill:

• Customers will receive a metered bill if a water meter has been installed for their property.

Unmetered bill:

• Customers will receive an unmetered bill if a water meter has not been installed for their property.

That really doesn't make sense. Imagine ESB operating like that. The dealine will be pushed back, no question about that.

dxhound2005

Rightwing wrote: »

That really doesn't make sense. Imagine ESB operating like that. The dealine will be pushed back, no question about that.

That doesn't make sense. No other country has achived 100% metering. They all manage to implement a dual charging system.

Irish Water always said that they would never achieve 100% metering and that they would be operating a dual charging system. The only special circumstance here compared to normal countries is the number of premises where meter installation was prevented by protestors. They remain unmetered customers and will get an unmetered bill. They can choose to pay it or not pay it. The campaign against the workers installing meters will have no influence on the billing system.

Does that make any more sense?

listermint

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That doesn't make sense. No other country has achived 100% metering. They all manage to implement a dual charging system.

Irish Water always said that they would never achieve 100% metering and that they would be operating a dual charging system. The only special circumstance here compared to normal countries is the number of premises where meter installation was prevented by protestors. They remain unmetered customers and will get an unmetered bill. They can choose to pay it or not pay it. The campaign against the workers installing meters will have on influence on the billing system.

Does that make any more sense?

About as much sense as an IW Manager making 1 Million Euro per year wages in private industry.

No other country is paying their water mangers 1 Million Euro per year.


Im still waiting on a retraction on that one. Not getting a pass for ridiculousness.

Rightwing

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That doesn't make sense. No other country has achived 100% metering. They all manage to implement a dual charging system.

Irish Water always said that they would never achieve 100% metering and that they would be operating a dual charging system. The only special circumstance here compared to normal countries is the number of premises where meter installation was prevented by protestors. They remain unmetered customers and will get an unmetered bill. They can choose to pay it or not pay it. The campaign against the workers installing meters will have no influence on the billing system.

Does that make any more sense?

Not really, is it an advantage to have a meter installed or not?

Irish Steve

listermint wrote: »

Some points half well made, but if you are pointing to regulators in this country to be some form of beacon of light in terms of regulation and control. Then do you really wish for me to point you in the direction of poor enforcement or literal toothless power.

Banking Regulator
Communications Regulator
Garda Ombudsman
Transport Regulation Authority (im sure you have seen the never ending cycle of increases for Bus Tram and Train year on year on year) where does this stop ? Pricing people back into cars. Or is the fact that there more people in employment now that the roads are so f'kn bad.



We have no history of adequate regulation in this country and have an utter stadium full of pointless qwangos who are meant to regulate items under their remit but simple cannot do the task at hand or are their solely to give jobs to FG FF Labour playmates. Look to the recent hike in Nursing registrations to understand how nonsensical and unfounded price increases are decided upon.


Nation of bloody morons.

Also regrettably valid,

Comreg are a waste of space, and don't get me started on the Nursing board.

Many years ago I spent a lot of time sorting out issues they had with their computer systems, and to say it was a mess would be putting it mildly, and the work ethic in that semi state was deplorable, and that was 15 years ago.

I spent some time last week reading some of the transport regulators work, and they did a reasonable job, but it's clear from reading some of the related areas about rail safety that there are some fundamental issues there that are a part of the state culture, so yes, there are issues no matter how they are addressed,

There is a fundamental issue and deep rooted problem that the political classes, and their servants in the higher echelons of power have been able to stick two fingers in the air to the rest of us because there is no way that we can make them truly accountable to the people, and the concept of politicians being the servants of the people went out of the window a long time ago, when they realised that they can do pretty much what they like, and the only remedy that the people have is to throw them out, and by then, it's too late, as we have seen with things like inflation proofed pensions and allowances that are more than index linked, among other obscenities.

Even making them accountable for other issues is impossible, as has been demonstrated only too clearly by the eternal tribunals that have cost a fortune and resulted in very little other than to confirm what we already knew, politics and high office were and are corrupt, self serving, and not answerable to anyone. Despite those findings, no one has lost their pension, or other obscene allowances, and no one has done any jail time of any significance.

I'm not sure how we change it, one option would be a "none of the above" option on the general election voting paper, and if that "none" percentage was above a defined limit, then no one wins the election, and they all have to go back to the drawing board and put forward a different manifesto.

I'd like to see one specific financial question on each election, which would be an approval, yes or no, of a defined increase in pay and associated benefits for the political groups.

Another thing worth considering would be a recall option, where if a petition gets more than a defined number of signatures, a referendum on that issue has to be called. It might just make the politicians more responsive to the people if they were at risk of being thrown out or otherwise challenged more specifically and on wider issues.

Then again, and this is not a completely comfortable thought, it might not work, as a change of this nature and magnitude would actually require the people to engage with the system, which I'm not convinced they really want to do, there's a bigger part of the Irish psyche that's actually (a) happy to be moaning about the system and having someone else to blame, and (b) still locked into the culture of "feck ye and your rules" that goes back to the days of when the political control of Ireland wasn't Irish.

Problem is, 100 years down the line, the "feck ye" attitude is still well engrained in the mind and psyche of the nation, and until people realise that they have to be involved, and that politicians are really the servants of the people, not the masters, the issues that bedevil Irish Politics won't change for the better.

We also need a fundamental change in the State services culture of "jobs for life, regardless of skills or changes", in order to ensure that the people that are doing the job actually have the skills and the motivation to do the job they are there for.

Back to water.

IW as an organisations is fundamentally flawed, and as presently structured and implemented it is in no way fit for purpose. The wrong management at the top, the wrong number of people parachuted in from the local authorities without any quality control or review of duplicate posts (ESRI reckon 2000 overstaffed), and the wrong attitude and culture where things like bonuses, allowances and expenses are concerned, and the politicians responsible for it see nothing wrong, as it's part of the same endemic institutional corruption that they are so entrenched in they see it as being completely acceptable and a "reward or worse, an entitlement " for the job they do.

Contempt is too mild a word to sum up how I regard their attitude towards that issue.

So. the fight over IW has to go on, and the changes needed have to be made, in order to protect and safeguard one of the most fundamental resources of the State, and ensure that all of the people of Ireland get the services they deserve from the State sector.

dxhound2005

Rightwing wrote: »

Not really, is it an advantage to have a meter installed or not?

Depends on the billing system. In England/Wales only 40% are metered, those customers pay what is on the meter. Doesn't matter if there are no children or 20 children. The 60% unmetered have their charge linked to their property tax. The higher the property tax the higher the water charge. Again no account is taken of how many live in the house.

How would you feel about that? If it was tried here would there be any protests?

Rightwing

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Depends on the billing system. In England/Wales only 40% are metered, those customers pay what is on the meter. Doesn't matter if there are no children or 20 children. The 60% unmetered have their charge linked to their property tax. The higher the property tax the higher the water charge. Again no account is taken of how many live in the house.

How would you feel about that? If it was tried here would there be any protests?

I haven't read up on IW much. Initially I was for the water charge, but the way it has been run, it has shown the customer nothing but utter contempt.

dxhound2005

Rightwing wrote: »

I haven't read up on IW much. Initially I was for the water charge, but the way it has been run, it has shown the customer nothing but utter contempt.

They have been very fair with me so far. I got an acknowledgement for my application. The application pack was very clear and informative. The meter installers were nothing but polite and helpful.

I pay no heed to tabloid shock horror stories about gyms and bonuses and all that other nonsense. Water supply and waste water treatment have suffered from not having direct charges. I will judge them on their performance once they have been given a chance to get up and running.

mikom

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They have been very fair with me so far. I got an acknowledgement for my application. The application pack was very clear and informative. The meter installers were nothing but polite and helpful.

How'd the brother get on?

Larry Wildman

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

Ha if you only you knew. Me and my 2 mates that were there have probably earned more money than you and you entire family will earn in your lives

Unlikely I'd say.

I'd be reluctant to make claims like that if I were you, especially given your "me and my 2 mates" line. Yes we're just strangers on the internet but I'd say statistically there is no chance that your claim is true.

Rightwing

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They have been very fair with me so far. I got an acknowledgement for my application. The application pack was very clear and informative. The meter installers were nothing but polite and helpful.

I pay no heed to tabloid shock horror stories about gyms and bonuses and all that other nonsense. Water supply and waste water treatment have suffered from not having direct charges. I will judge them on their performance once they have been given a chance to get up and running.

I didn't.

I do. That's precisely why the country went bankrupt - we have to learn from that & eradicate bonuses and under performing workers from the PS. Economics trumps all other activities, FG/Lab would do well to remember that.

Irish Steve

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Depends on the billing system. In England/Wales only 40% are metered, those customers pay what is on the meter. Doesn't matter if there are no children or 20 children. The 60% unmetered have their charge linked to their property tax. The higher the property tax the higher the water charge. Again no account is taken of how many live in the house.

How would you feel about that? If it was tried here would there be any protests?

The problem with that is there's no incentive to be economic, and no incentive to fix broken or leaking taps or other problems within the consumer's own premises.

There's also then the problem that it makes finding leaks harder, if an area is metered, then the water into the area should match the usage, and if it doesn't, there's a leak issue to be found and fixed.

The best system is metering, in that it means that those that use the water pay for it, which might make people think about the cost of watering the grass, or washing the car with a hose every week, or filling a fish pond or swimming pool from the mains supply ( and yes, my fish pond will cost me over €50 to fill from the mains if I were to be so stupid). The only way to have a fair charging system is to have a similar system to that used for gas and electricity, which is metering on the source of supply.

It might be more appropriate to have a standing charge for each property, and then the usage charge on top, so that the overall cost is shared across all users, but that seems to have been discounted, though I'm not sure why.

It's the same for motor fuel, or heating oil, or for pretty much any other variable use product, the consumer pays for what they use, and I don't hear complaints about any of them, as it is the best system for recovering the cost of supply of the product.

The problem for most people is that the IW concept is likely to result in significantly higher charges for supply that have very little to do with the cost of providing the water, or supporting the network, and everything to do with the snout in trough culture that has permeated the state services sector, and I can't trust that the regulator will control the spend at IW acceptably,

I've seen semi states at work first hand, and it wasn't a pretty sight, and the most sickening aspect was the "entitled" mentality of the people that were abusing the system.

Banjo String

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Unlikely I'd say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcxs-CH4kG0

realdanbreen

This whole hullabaloo about irish water is the greatest example of what happens when you elect a bunch of independents . I don't see them whipping up hysteria or putting the same energy into giving up the €12000 that they all get for turning up for work or the thousands of euro they pocket for unvouched'expenses'. These are things that they could resolve at the stroke of a pen next week if they wanted to, but that won't happen.

deco nate

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0XlptOyY57E

Bull mccabe knows what's happening..

the groutch

Kenny resorting to scaremongering

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/income-tax-will-rise-4pc-if-government-abolishes-water-charges-taoiseach-30710647.html

I'd like to see the calculations he made that says you would need to increase the top rate by 4% to generate the same revenue as Irish Water, even with full compliance.

mikom

the groutch wrote: »

Kenny resorting to scaremongering

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/income-tax-will-rise-4pc-if-government-abolishes-water-charges-taoiseach-30710647.html

A promise.....

Mr Kenny said Irish Water would never be a private company
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/income-tax-will-rise-4pc-if-government-abolishes-water-charges-taoiseach-30710647.html

An earlier promise.........

"All Irish people believe that a man's house is his castle. It is morally unjust and unfair to tax a person's home"
Enda Kenny in the Dail (1994)

Not worth wiping your hole with.
.
.

Rightwing

the groutch wrote: »

Kenny resorting to scaremongering

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/income-tax-will-rise-4pc-if-government-abolishes-water-charges-taoiseach-30710647.html

I'd like to see the calculations he made that says you would need to increase the top rate by 4% to generate the same revenue as Irish Water, even with full compliance.

1 + 1 +1 +1 = 4.

Good man Enda. Retire now on your 5 pensions after that bit of Einstein work.

shamrock2004

the groutch wrote: »

Kenny resorting to scaremongering

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/income-tax-will-rise-4pc-if-government-abolishes-water-charges-taoiseach-30710647.html

I'd like to see the calculations he made that says you would need to increase the top rate by 4% to generate the same revenue as Irish Water, even with full compliance.

Can people still not see that this is a tax which in no way benefits the ordinary citizens?! Kenny has confirmed what Hogan said yesterday. This is about broadening the tax base and unduly plugging a financial defecit under the pretext of improving water facilities. what absolute horse ****. Since their tenure, FG have done nothing to fix the inordinate expenditure of this country.