***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

listermint

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The flip flop stopped between 1997 and 2011 when we had FF plus a minor party for 14 years. The reason that Bertie was able to win three elections was because of his popular policies

Whichever party comes up with the most popular policies in 2016 will win. Currently it is Sinn Fein with their plan to abolish property tax and water charges.

And that had nothing to do with a fairly resounding global prosperity at the time. We all partied sure.

listermint

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Tinfoil hat time for me

But it would be interesting if we tried to adopt Vincent Brown's thing on his debates ,,,
Where people would have to declare any political affiliations or alliances before they speak post.

I dont have any affiliations or alliances.

Read my posts.

Cantona's Collars

seamus wrote: »

Plenty of open markets still have and require a regulator (COMREG, for example).

I'm not sure how the emergence of more players in the energy market makes a regulator defunct? If anything there's an argument that open markets require even stiffer regulation than closed ones; our banking crisis is a good example of why.

The regulator for the energy market now has no control over how the suppliers set prices,maybe it's for the better as it's ironic that when the likes of Bord Gais went to the regulator it was to increase prices.Now there's a more open market,competition is giving us decreases & offers.

IW will have a monopoly in the market (if they are still around) and this isn't good seeing as they have already declared an intent to rise prices at their pleasure.

Cuttlefish

geeksauce wrote: »

How do you come to the conclusion that I get pleasure from stopping people having drinking water as they are too poor to pay this extra bill?

I for one don't know anyone too poor to pay this extra bill, the people I know that have sent back their forms incomplete or with some nonsense such as no contract no consent, claim they are too poor, however in reality they just don't want to have to pay for a service. They are the ones that have spent their whole lives with their hands out, taking their SW payments, Council Houses etc. now they are being asked to pay for a service they are up in arms. No more free rides.

No more free rides... you think that?

I walked beside a former bank manager on Saturday, he isn't looking for a free ride

He along with many others is taking a stand and saying enough is enough!!

Banjo String

The Govt are scared shıtless.

Who says protests don't work?

Environment Minister Alan Kelly: 'I'm sorry for the way Irish Water was set up'Mr Kelly also pledged that “modest charges” fixed for a time into the future will emerge from a major government review currently under way.

In his first public comments since over 100,000 people took to the streets at over 100 venues on Saturday, Mr Kelly also made a thinly-veiled attack on his predecessor, Phil Hogan, who is now Ireland’s EU Commissioner.

He made a huge climb-down on previous government statements and said a little more time was needed to work out detailed changes.

“It is the Number 1 priority of government I assure,” he said.

Mr Kelly said the new charge regime “will be modest and consistent over a number of years.”   

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/environment-minister-alan-kelly-im-sorry-for-the-way-irish-water-was-set-up-30713646.html

They're panicking. You better believe it.

geeksauce

Cuttlefish wrote: »

No more free rides... you think that?

I walked beside a former bank manager on Saturday, he isn't looking for a free ride

He along with many others is taking a stand and saying enough is enough!!

Was I talking about the bank manager you were walking beside on Saturday? Or was I talking about the people I know that have sent back their forms incomplete?

The clue is in my post, you should have read it before quoting it.

ROCKMAN

listermint wrote: »

I dont have any affiliations or alliances.

Read my posts.

Grossed wires
Was not talking about you in particular.

Was thinking about all posters on this thread.

Cuttlefish

geeksauce wrote: »

Was I talking about the bank manager you were walking beside on Saturday? Or was I talking about the people I know that have sent back their forms incomplete?

The clue is in my post, you should have read it before quoting it.

How do you come to the conclusion that I get pleasure from stopping people having drinking water as they are too poor to pay this extra bill?

I for one don't know anyone too poor to pay this extra bill, the people I know that have sent back their forms incomplete or with some nonsense such as no contract no consent, claim they are too poor, however in reality they just don't want to have to pay for a service. They are the ones that have spent their whole lives with their hands out

Here is your quote and mine was in response to you alluding that the people marching spent their whole lives with their hands out.

Most can afford to pay the extra charge but they are standing on principle - USC, LPT and now Water Charges --- Enough is enough

Stargate

Banjo String wrote: »

The Govt are scared shıtless.

Who says protests don't work?


http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/environment-minister-alan-kelly-im-sorry-for-the-way-irish-water-was-set-up-30713646.html

They're panicking. You better believe it.

Fine Gael Cork City Councillor Laura McGonigle in trouble for tweet !

https://twitter.com/LauraMcGonigle

Banjo String

Stargate wrote: »

Fine Gael Cork City Councillor in trouble for tweet !

Let's hope 'the great unwashed' of Cork remember these comments when she's up for reelection.

http://i.imgur.com/RwsrHzO.jpg

Lucy and Harry

The privatisation of water in Ireland may be imminent. In its correspondence with the International Monetary Fund, the Irish Government has stated its intention to “move towards full cost-recovery in the provision of water services”. This involves the introduction of water charges, metering and the establishment of a State agency, Irish Water. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government say Irish Water is a public utility, and that “there is absolutely no intention to privatise water services”.

Nonetheless, the centralisation of water provision from local authorities in one entity would certainly make privatisation easier. As does the introduction of a customer-supplier relationship by way of charges and metering, as Ryan Meade has noted. The Irish Times ran an article in February 2013 with the headline ‘Dail warned legislation will open floodgates for new Irish Water to be privatised’. Former Green Party Minister John Gormley sees the establishment of the water authority as the first step to privatisation. However, according to Minister of State for Natural Resources Fergus O’Dowd last month:

there will be a legal guarantee to give an absolute assurance as best we can that there will be no question of privatisation arising as an issue.

A qualified commitment from a Government under pressure from the IMF and the EU (with its controversial proposed Concessions Directive). In light of the introduction of water charges, legislation is reportedly to be adopted addressing exemptions, including for those who might not be able to afford the charges.

What does international human rights law say about water and its privatization? None of the major treaties refer to a right to water, although it can be taken as implicit in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. It was only in 2010 that the United Nations General Assembly adopted a declaration on the right to water. The declaration recognizes “the right to safe and clean drinking water and sanitation as a human right that is essential for the full enjoyment of life and all human rights”.
The Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights does not seem to oppose the privatisation of water per se, or that it be paid for, provided it remains affordable:

Any payment for water services has to be based on the principle of equity, ensuring that these services, whether privately or publicly provided, are affordable for all, including socially disadvantaged groups. Equity demands that poorer households should not be disproportionately burdened with water expenses as compared to richer households.

The Committee has noted the increase privatisation in various areas affecting human rights (e.g. here, here and here), but does not treat privatisation itself as inherently contrary to the protection of those rights. That said, in its 2011 Concluding Observations on Israel, the Committee recommended “a scaling down of the privatization of social services”.

In the global economy, water is now treated as a tradable commodity, and privatisation of the supply is an intrinsic part of this development. Water was designated as “an economic good” at an international conference of government experts held in Dublin in 1992. The Dublin Principles emphasised the economic value of water:

it is vital to recognize first the basic right of all human beings to have access to clean water and sanitation at an affordable price

Privatisation of water does not absolve the State of its human rights obligations, or those of companies either. While the international human rights machinery is mostly addressed to States, the human rights responsibilities of the private sector are being recognised. The Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights has even called on States “to prevent their own citizens and companies from violating the right to water of individuals and communities in other countries”.

When the debate on privatisation in Ireland happens, there were be talk of increased efficiency, reduction of waste, and savings to the taxpayer. Short-term financial gain will likely hold the day. Dr Frank Groome predicts that privatisation will not take place until after public funds have covered the upgrade of the water supply network – “an irreversible and costly investment that no private company could afford or would be willing to pay for”.

The most likely eventual buyer would be one of the major multinational water companies such as Veolia, Suez or Thames Water. Veolia already have a sizable water operation in Ireland. The other likelihood is retaining Irish Water in public ownership, but allowing for competition from private companies. PriceWaterhouseCoopers, who conducted an independent assessment of Ireland’s water provision in 2011, suggested that:

… once Irish Water is well established as a self-funding utility the Government and Regulators may wish to assess international experience of the introduction of competition in water and sewerage services to identify whether Ireland could benefit from competitive markets in the water sector at a later date.

The privatisation of water has had disastrous results in other countries. Two Irish filmmakers, Muireann de Barra and Aisling Crudeen, have made a documentary Water Rising on the impact of privatisation of water in Bolivia. The Bechtel corporation was effectively forced out of the country following a popular revolt against its water policies in the city of Cochabamba – a licence was required to collect rainwater – and the water supply was returned to public ownership. In 2004, the people of Uruguay voted in a constitutional amendment to ensure State ownership of water. This is a suitable but unlikely candidate for consideration as part of Ireland’s current Constitutional Convention. A constitutional commitment would offer far more legal certainty than legislation as to the future of Ireland’s water.

tayto lover

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Any response to my question Lucy?

Well seeing as DXhound never replied to my post, i doubt it.:D

Little CuChulainn

tayto lover wrote: »

Well seeing as DXhound never replied to my post, i doubt it.:D

Why would that be relevant?

tayto lover

Banjo String wrote: »

Let's hope 'the great unwashed' of Cork remember these comments when she's up for reelection.

http://i.imgur.com/RwsrHzO.jpg

Bye bye Laura.
Eat as much as you can from the trough now because your time will be up soon.
Gorge yourself.

Grandpa Hassan

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

The privatisation of water in Ireland may be imminent. In its correspondence with the International Monetary Fund, the Irish Government has stated its intention to “move towards full cost-recovery in the provision of water services”. This involves the introduction of water charges, metering and the establishment of a State agency, Irish Water. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government say Irish Water is a public utility, and that “there is absolutely no intention to privatise water services”.

Nonetheless, the centralisation of water provision from local authorities in one entity would certainly make privatisation easier. As does the introduction of a customer-supplier relationship by way of charges and metering, as Ryan Meade has noted. The Irish Times ran an article in February 2013 with the headline ‘Dail warned legislation will open floodgates for new Irish Water to be privatised’. Former Green Party Minister John Gormley sees the establishment of the water authority as the first step to privatisation. However, according to Minister of State for Natural Resources Fergus O’Dowd last month:

there will be a legal guarantee to give an absolute assurance as best we can that there will be no question of privatisation arising as an issue.

A qualified commitment from a Government under pressure from the IMF and the EU (with its controversial proposed Concessions Directive). In light of the introduction of water charges, legislation is reportedly to be adopted addressing exemptions, including for those who might not be able to afford the charges.

What does international human rights law say about water and its privatization? None of the major treaties refer to a right to water, although it can be taken as implicit in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. It was only in 2010 that the United Nations General Assembly adopted a declaration on the right to water. The declaration recognizes “the right to safe and clean drinking water and sanitation as a human right that is essential for the full enjoyment of life and all human rights”.
The Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights does not seem to oppose the privatisation of water per se, or that it be paid for, provided it remains affordable:

Any payment for water services has to be based on the principle of equity, ensuring that these services, whether privately or publicly provided, are affordable for all, including socially disadvantaged groups. Equity demands that poorer households should not be disproportionately burdened with water expenses as compared to richer households.

The Committee has noted the increase privatisation in various areas affecting human rights (e.g. here, here and here), but does not treat privatisation itself as inherently contrary to the protection of those rights. That said, in its 2011 Concluding Observations on Israel, the Committee recommended “a scaling down of the privatization of social services”.

In the global economy, water is now treated as a tradable commodity, and privatisation of the supply is an intrinsic part of this development. Water was designated as “an economic good” at an international conference of government experts held in Dublin in 1992. The Dublin Principles emphasised the economic value of water:

it is vital to recognize first the basic right of all human beings to have access to clean water and sanitation at an affordable price

Privatisation of water does not absolve the State of its human rights obligations, or those of companies either. While the international human rights machinery is mostly addressed to States, the human rights responsibilities of the private sector are being recognised. The Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights has even called on States “to prevent their own citizens and companies from violating the right to water of individuals and communities in other countries”.

When the debate on privatisation in Ireland happens, there were be talk of increased efficiency, reduction of waste, and savings to the taxpayer. Short-term financial gain will likely hold the day. Dr Frank Groome predicts that privatisation will not take place until after public funds have covered the upgrade of the water supply network – “an irreversible and costly investment that no private company could afford or would be willing to pay for”.

The most likely eventual buyer would be one of the major multinational water companies such as Veolia, Suez or Thames Water. Veolia already have a sizable water operation in Ireland. The other likelihood is retaining Irish Water in public ownership, but allowing for competition from private companies. PriceWaterhouseCoopers, who conducted an independent assessment of Ireland’s water provision in 2011, suggested that:

… once Irish Water is well established as a self-funding utility the Government and Regulators may wish to assess international experience of the introduction of competition in water and sewerage services to identify whether Ireland could benefit from competitive markets in the water sector at a later date.

The privatisation of water has had disastrous results in other countries. Two Irish filmmakers, Muireann de Barra and Aisling Crudeen, have made a documentary Water Rising on the impact of privatisation of water in Bolivia. The Bechtel corporation was effectively forced out of the country following a popular revolt against its water policies in the city of Cochabamba – a licence was required to collect rainwater – and the water supply was returned to public ownership. In 2004, the people of Uruguay voted in a constitutional amendment to ensure State ownership of water. This is a suitable but unlikely candidate for consideration as part of Ireland’s current Constitutional Convention. A constitutional commitment would offer far more legal certainty than legislation as to the future of Ireland’s water.

You should really quote the source of things that you cut and paste

Going Forward

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

You should really quote the source of things that you cut and paste

Charles O’Mahony is a lecturer in Public Law at the School of Law, NUI Galway.

http://humanrights.ie/civil-liberties/the-right-to-water-and-privatisation-in-ireland/

Lucy and Harry

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/head-of-irish-water-apologises-for-mistakes-649585.html Irish Water apologises to customers (who ever they are) ahh bless .

You should really quote the source of things that you cut and paste

How about commenting on what the post says and not the person making the post.Or was it too complicated for you?I think it is very worrying myself and people are disturbed at the way this IW has been set up.Even Enda is saying things have been handled badly and we have IW apologising too as shown in above link.

According to the journal.ie ireland people did contact IW to cancel their registrations but IW refused to let them deregister!
Really as parts of the IW 'contract' is vague including re use and storage of personal data they should have been allowed to...re unfair terms and conditions!
http://journal.ie/

http://www.thejournal.ie/fine-gael-councillor-facebook-rainwater-1759765-Nov2014/ Shows how out of touch FG are really.

Little CuChulainn

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/head-of-irish-water-apologises-for-mistakes-649585.html Irish Water apologises to customers (who ever they are) ahh bless .


How about commenting on what the post says and not the person making the post..

Seriously? You don't think that's a bit rich coming from you. You've ignored nearly all points put to you.

papu

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/head-of-irish-water-apologises-for-mistakes-649585.html Irish Water apologises to customers (who ever they are) ahh bless .


How about commenting on what the post says and not the person making the post.Or was it too complicated for you?I think it is very worrying myself and people are disturbed at the way this IW has been set up.Even Enda is saying things have been handled badly and we have IW apologising too as shown in above link.

Its pretty useless to comment on something when the source is unknown.

geeksauce

Cuttlefish wrote: »

How do you come to the conclusion that I get pleasure from stopping people having drinking water as they are too poor to pay this extra bill?

I for one don't know anyone too poor to pay this extra bill, the people I know that have sent back their forms incomplete or with some nonsense such as no contract no consent, claim they are too poor, however in reality they just don't want to have to pay for a service. They are the ones that have spent their whole lives with their hands out

Here is your quote and mine was in response to you alluding that the people marching spent their whole lives with their hands out.

Most can afford to pay the extra charge but they are standing on principle - USC, LPT and now Water Charges --- Enough is enough

Where did I say anything about the people marching?

Lucy and Harry

papu wrote: »

Its pretty useless to comment on something when the source is unknown.

http://humanrights.ie/civil-liberties/the-right-to-water-and-privatisation-in-ireland/
You have been given the source so please enlighten us on your view. Jack O'Connor has admitted today that IW WILL be privatised, but that nobody in government has the guts to admit this.

papu

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

http://humanrights.ie/civil-liberties/the-right-to-water-and-privatisation-in-ireland/
You have been given the source so please enlighten us on your view. Jack O'Connor has admitted today that IW WILL be privatised, but that nobody in government has the guts to admit this.

The SIPTU President?

Several Ministers today have said that it will stay public , and some are in favor of a referendum to keep it public.

So I think It's a load of biased propaganda.

Sourceshttp://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1103/656467-irish-water/

Lucy and Harry

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Seriously? You don't think that's a bit rich coming from you. You've ignored nearly all points put to you.

Your logical fallacy is ad hominem

Lucy and Harry

papu wrote: »

The SIPTU President?

Several Ministers today have said that it will stay public , and some are in favor of a referendum to keep it public.

So I think It's a load of biased propaganda.

Sourceshttp://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1103/656467-irish-water/

Too many conflicting views though it is that uncertainty that is troubling people don't you think.No one knows what is going to happen not you or I.Experts on all sides are talking and seem to be at logger heads.Stop the cronyism of employing Denis O Brien. Let us not forget that a referendum to prevent Irish Water being sold does not stop them entering into a partnership with other private companies.like Gmc / Sierra Limited and its similarly named parent company.A referendum does nothing.

FixdePitchmark

The project still has to go ahead in full.

And will.

A temporary Irish solution to calm the loud minority.

BoJack Horseman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

A temporary Irish solution to calm the loud minority.

A 100% tax credit / Welfare allowance for 2 years...... Or some other fudge like that.

All the main parties want IW to stay, its just a matter of placating the mob.

Stargate

Banjo String wrote: »

Let's hope 'the great unwashed' of Cork remember these comments when she's up for reelection.

http://i.imgur.com/RwsrHzO.jpg

Feeling were already running high here in Cork re IW , this goverment etc .
Local radio station have tried to contact her , no reply .
From her facebook page

" Not only did she suggest that the protesters should collect the rain water to drink but she also stated that she couldn't "cope" if she had to listen to a thousand of her constituents! What an enormous insult to the 1108 people who elected her! She has clearly forgotten who she works for!!!"

gladrags

Let’s Get Ireland Working - Fine Gael Manifesto 2011

Ireland now relies on the goodwill of other Governments and international institutions to fund our state. That Ireland has been brought to this tragic juncture in our history reflects a massive loss of market and international political confidence not just in the last Government’s economic policies, but also in the way Ireland works as a country.
The economic collapse we have witnessed has shattered citizens’ confidence not only in reckless banks, but also in the integrity of our politics and the institutions put in place to protect, help and serve us, such as the Financial Regulator, the HSE and FÁS. Behind the wreckage of our banking system, our health service, our public finances and the jobs market, lies a cosy culture of cronyism and low standards that infiltrated the top of our political and public service systems under recent Governments. It is a culture that abandoned the principles underpinning the Republic that Fine Gael founded in 1949 by distorting the power and resources of the State for the benefit of the few, not the many. It allowed special interests to crowd out the public interest. It pushed the interests of citizens behind those of powerful elites .
The next Government must pick up the pieces. It must steer the country away from bankruptcy by solving the debt crisis in a way that protects the most vulnerable and distributes the burden fairly. It must also broaden the tax base in a way that keeps Ireland an attractive location to work, raise a family, invest and create jobs None of this will be easy. It could take a decade to fix many of Ireland’s problems. But it must be done.
Changing the politicians around the cabinet table is necessary to restore confidence in Ireland’s Government, but that alone will not be enough to put the country back on track. What are also needed are fundamental changes in the structures and systems of the State itself to improve the quality of governance experienced by the country. It is these fundamental changes that form the basis of this manifesto, all linked together by a 5-Point Plan that will…
1. Help protect and create jobs
2. Keep taxes low while fixing the deficit
3. Deliver smaller, better government
4. Create a completely new, fairer, more efficient health system
5. Overhaul the way our political system works to stamp out cronyism and low standards.

Those who founded the State sought to create the economic foundations for our political independence. The purpose of the next Government, and the next generation, will be to turn again to that task. I commend this Manifesto to you as an important step on this journey.


Enda KennyLeaderFine Gael Fine Gael ManiFesto 2010


==========================================================================================
You should have a look at the full manifestos of both parties, if you get a chance, or if you can stomach the hypocrisy and double standards.
Now that they are in power they care not for the “shattered citizens”. The” reckless banks” are in the process of further ado. The cosy culture of cronyism and corruption (low standards), must have been infectious. The “few” must be in this case Irish water, and the rest of his cronies.

Overhaul he says…indeed.

BoJack Horseman

gladrags wrote: »

Enda KennyLeaderFine Gael Fine Gael

Is this the 3rd or 4th time you've pasted the same post?

Cuttlefish

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

A 100% tax credit / Welfare allowance for 2 years...... Or some other fudge like that.

All the main parties want IW to stay, its just a matter of placating the mob.

You have some cheek.