***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Banjo String

Enda Kenny completely rules out any chance of a referendum on Irish Water always remaining in public hands.

And with that, the million odd yet to even sign up, never mind pay a bill, will flat out reject this sham. It's like he wants this whole debacle to ultimately fail.

Kenny says they'll further tighten legislation that will mean Irish Water will never be privatised.

(a few weeks ago it was against the law for Irish Water to seek people’s PPS numbers)

Irish Steve

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

Well there it is then from the ''leaders'' mouth.You guys still think IW is not being set up to be a private company.

As was outlined in an earlier message in this thread, IW is ALREADY a private company, owned jointly by the Irish Government and Bord Gais. That's nothing new, and as such that structure does not represent any threat going forward.

It does NOT mean that it's open to being instantly sold to whoever wants it, and right now, bluntly, it's not particularly attractive to the private sector, and this is why:-

(A) IW has got a poor client base, (if the comments in here are to be believed)

(B) IW requires a massive injection of capital of over 10 Bn Euro to just fix the backlog of neglected maintenance.

(C) It has an excessively large staff structure (See ESRI reports) that's full of semi state employees on permanent contracts, who are expensive, and don't have the best track record where things like productivity and sick leave are concerned, and they can't be got rid of even if they are not needed or not suitable for the job that's needed.

(D) Right now, there are severe doubts about the exact financial viability of IW, as the Government are still not sure on how (if at all) it will be funded.

Would you as a private investor be falling over the queue to buy IW?

DamagedTrax

Banjo String wrote: »

Kenny says they'll further tighten legislation that will mean Irish Water will never be privatised.

but yet the PAC cant investigate them either.

is this a completely new type of entity that we're seeing? one that isnt privatised but acts 100% like a privatised company with pure profit in mind and no public accountability?

its getting more and more bizarre by the minute with these crooks.

Daith

Irish Steve wrote: »

(D) Right now, there are severe doubts about the exact financial viability of IW, as the Government are still not sure on how (if at all) it will be funded.

Really? I thought the first aim was to make Irish Water self sufficient before anything. The political interference with IW (because it is not going anywhere) is going to be disastrous in the long term.

WakeUp

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Even the Irish Times are rounding on their beloved FG. The state of affairs is very bad for FG. Fintan O'Toole is correct. We are becoming ungovernable. Who do we turn to after this mess? There is nobody worth the vote.

Im not sure I have an answer to that I honestly dont know. I dont vote for political party people I would vote independent if there was somebody standing who I wanted to vote for. Irishsteve seems knowledgeable and has some good and interesting ideas and thoughts maybe he is the man to ask that question. and speaking of Steves I wouldnt mind seeing Stephen Donnelly stepping up and maybe trying to get something started I think there is an appetite for something different. Donnelly is an intelligent man with a sharp mind like other people have stated on the thread a new party is probably needed if one does ever take shape Id like to see him involved in it and heavily at that.

mzungu wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-rules-out-referendum-to-halt-sale-of-irish-water-649762.html

Good man Enda, not even entertaining the idea of a referendum :rolleyes:

why rule out a referendum Enda. that says an awful lot.

Barely There

Highflyer13 wrote: »

In this day and age it shouldn't be difficult to set up a new party with liberal centre right leanings. I'm sure there are plenty of accountants, economists, lawyers, medical professionals, project managers, analysts etc all dissillusioned with the state of our political system who would be willing to help their country out and reform it and get it working properly and fair for all. No schoolteachers please:pac:

With the age of social media funding shouldn't be a problem and I am sure that there is plenty of appetite. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet albeit the new party's that have cropped up seem ineffective or have too much history attached to them i.e Reform Alliance (looking at Creighton and Healy-Eames in particular). A brand new start is badly needed

Since the implosion of the PD's there is literally no socially liberal, fiscally responsible party for people who are sick of the FF/FG duopoly, suspicious of Labour's ties with their trade Union buddies, horrified at the thoughts of the Shinners ever getting within an ass's roar of power, and utterly appalled at the conglomerate of loony hard-left nincompoop's banging the anti-austerity drum.

I'm convinced there is a huge appetite for such a party, but I think that the people most in favour are too busy working and paying their taxes to actually keep the show in the road to be able to set something up.

Banjo String

DamagedTrax wrote: »

but yet the PAC cant investigate them either.

is this a completely new type of entity that we're seeing? one that isnt privatised but acts 100% like a privatised company with pure profit in mind and no public accountability?

its getting more and more bizarre by the minute with these crooks.

Enda and Tierney are recruiting more people to attend the protests on the 10th of Dec than Boyd-Barrett / Murphy or any of the other anti water charges groups tbh.

What an absolute plonker tbh. Dennis OBrien must be creaming in his jocks at Endas blind obedience.

All's needed now for the Govt to disintegrate is for them to get Revenue involved.

**crosses fingers**

mzungu

DamagedTrax wrote: »

he's some joker.

no we wont be having a referendum.. sure would ye all not just trust us to look after things?

Funny thing is, thats exactly what they are thinking.

DamagedTrax wrote: »

but yet the PAC cant investigate them either.

is this a completely new type of entity that we're seeing? one that isnt privatised but acts 100% like a privatised company with pure profit in mind and no public accountability?

its getting more and more bizarre by the minute with these crooks.

Usually what happens when you get a bunch of cowboys making things up as they go along :D

Lucy and Harry

Irish Steve wrote: »

Would you as a private investor be falling over the queue to buy IW?

When it is all set up after its teething problems and ready to milk the Irish people of their cash maybe.A national asset that they can charge what they like could be a good thing to buy into for the big cats.

DamagedTrax

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

When it is all set up after its teething problems and ready to milk the Irish people of their cash maybe.A national asset that they can charge what they like could be a good thing to buy into for the big cats.

i think im having déja vú... wasnt there once a telecoms company....

_Kaiser_

papu wrote: »

Do you not understand the bolded word?

Legislation isn't worth a toss - it can be changed on a whim by the government of the day (and lightning fast in the dead of night too as we've seen)

What we've seen today is...

- IW asking a council for RAS recipient information, thus completely discrediting the "apologies" from them and the government yesterday

- Kenny effectively confirming the medium term plan is to sell off IW completely (but those of us who read the original T&C's on the IW site knew that)

This is far beyond IW at this stage.. the entire government needs to go over this latest mess - in fact that's been the defining mark of Kenny's government.. stumbling from one fiasco/scandal to another!

Lucy and Harry

Have a look at 'Real cost of water charges in Ireland' purchase.ie!
Very interesting re estimates made before and after local elections!
Also I think less than 3% of munically treated water is drinking water so if government rolled out a water harvesting scheme to all households they could concentrate on improving the treatment of drinking water and more to spend on fixing pipes from the 1.2b we already give though taxation measures to water services!

http://purchase.ie/

Joshua J

Caliden wrote: »

Add this to that list:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jul/27/water-nestle-drink-charge-privatize-companies-stocks

Well i guess if people ever wondered what is discussed at these Bilderberg meetings this whole fiasco might give some insight. Enda is as much a puppet as Obama or Cameron although I fear, that unlike the other two, he doesn't see the strings.

Creative Juices

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is far beyond IW at this stage.. the entire government needs to go over this latest mess - in fact that's been the defining mark of Kenny's government.. stumbling from one fiasco/scandal to another!

Fine Gael and Labour had a massive opportunity to reform and rebuild this country after the mess of the last FF government. Enda should have faced the nation on Day #1 and outlined the massive problems we had and the major actions that would be required. I think the people would have bought into it.

Instead the muppet went to Davos and said we all partied during the boom and then his government followed all FF policies and got stuck into the power pig trough as well as FF ever did. All we have seen since is cronyism and fiascos. Shame on them.

Cometh the hour, goneth the man.

Oh Enda, how's the Senate reform going? Healy Screams loves being a useless senator I am sure.

twowheelsgood

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

Why do some people here have such hatred for protesters?

Short answer. Because if their protest succeeds they will make things worse. And the more successful the protests the worse they will make things.

I personally don’t doubt that the majority of the protestors are genuine. Most will either genuinely struggle to pay an additional charge or genuinely believe that “enough is enough”.

What you perceive as hatred is I think more likely dismay at the poor comprehension that so many protesters have of the problems we face and the fact that those that do comprehend cannot offer an anyways credible alternative solution.

Even the more knowledgeable among them seem to think the problems are rooted in the low standards seen in high office (Even if we had public representatives of the highest integrity in place it would make close to zero difference, given the massive challenges we face)

The deficit will have to be reduced. And it will be. If this government don’t do it, a future one will (possible after a few years of unstable governments, which will make matters much worse). And while we delay it (if we do), expect our credit rating to fall and borrowing rates to soar (that is, if we can find someone dumb enough to lend to a country that declines to bring its deficit under control).

Plus we will add 7-8 billion per year to the 200 billion debt that we are bequeathing to our children and grandchildren. We paid 8 billion this year to service that debt. 8 billion! And we get zilch in return! How can anyone think that increasing our debt is a good idea?

If all the anti-austerity protests so far had succeeded we would have added 100 billion to the debt in the last 5 years alone!!!!

Creative Juices

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Plus we will add 7-8 billion per year to the 200 billion debt that we are bequeathing to our children and grandchildren. We paid 8 billion this year to service that debt. 8 billion! And we get zilch in return! How can anyone think that increasing our debt is a good idea?

If all the anti-austerity protests so far had succeeded we would have added 100 billion to the debt in the last 5 years alone!!!!

60 billion of that 200 billion is private banking debt. Don't forget that.

papu

Creative Juices wrote: »

60 billion of that 200 billion is private banking debt. Don't forget that.

and the other 140billion?

DamagedTrax

i love your use of the term 'we' @twowheelsgood.

i never entered into any of this debt. i owe nobody. how is any of this my debt?

maybe you have debts accrued? they're your debts not mine.

twowheelsgood

Creative Juices wrote: »

60 billion of that 200 billion is private banking debt. Don't forget that.

64
What is more often forgotten is that 136 billion is not!

papu

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i love your use of the term 'we' @twowheelsgood.

i never entered into any of this debt. i owe nobody. how is any of this my debt?

maybe you have debts accrued? they're your debts not mine.

Ever use a bank?

Lucy and Harry

twowheelsgood wrote: »

The deficit will have to be reduced. And it will be. If this government don’t do it, a future one will (possible after a few years of unstable governments, which will make matters much worse). And while we delay it (if we do), expect our credit rating to fall and borrowing rates to soar (that is, if we can find someone dumb enough to lend to a country that declines to bring its deficit under control).

so you are saying we will give IW our valuable national asset of water as we need to pay back cash to our masters.So not about conservation or fixing leaks.The Troika and IMF is making us sell off our water rights.

twowheelsgood

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i love your use of the term 'we' @twowheelsgood.

i never entered into any of this debt. i owe nobody. how is any of this my debt?

maybe you have debts accrued? they're your debts not mine.

You can argue that the 64 billion bank portion is not yours (or mine).

The rest very much is. Unless you can point out that during the boom you received no PS wage rise, to tax cuts, no SSIA money, no welfare payment increase etc. etc.

listermint

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Short answer. Because if their protest succeeds they will make things worse. And the more successful the protests the worse they will make things.

I personally don’t doubt that the majority of the protestors are genuine. Most will either genuinely struggle to pay an additional charge or genuinely believe that “enough is enough”.

What you perceive as hatred is I think more likely dismay at the poor comprehension that so many protesters have of the problems we face and the fact that those that do comprehend cannot offer an anyways credible alternative solution.

Even the more knowledgeable among them seem to think the problems are rooted in the low standards seen in high office (Even if we had public representatives of the highest integrity in place it would make close to zero difference, given the massive challenges we face)

The deficit will have to be reduced. And it will be. If this government don’t do it, a future one will (possible after a few years of unstable governments, which will make matters much worse). And while we delay it (if we do), expect our credit rating to fall and borrowing rates to soar (that is, if we can find someone dumb enough to lend to a country that declines to bring its deficit under control).

Plus we will add 7-8 billion per year to the 200 billion debt that we are bequeathing to our children and grandchildren. We paid 8 billion this year to service that debt. 8 billion! And we get zilch in return! How can anyone think that increasing our debt is a good idea?

If all the anti-austerity protests so far had succeeded we would have added 100 billion to the debt in the last 5 years alone!!!!

This is Europes Debt, and Europe (germany) will have to address it. They kicked the can down the road as much as FG did (because FG were told do)

Look how this is panning out for Europe right now. Go on read Bloomberg, read the financial Times. Read whatever you want.

Europe is slowly grinding to a halt. And all you can talk about is Ireland servicing 45 Percent of European Debt.


Give over and pull the other one. We can service our own debt just like most countries do, but on boarding Irish Private Banking Debt and then Bond Holders and 3rd Party German Banking debt is not sustainable no matter how many Irish Waters we put up for sale. Perhaps we sell Coillte too, sure lands is worth money. Maybe sell Dublin ?


Where and when do we say enough is enough. Germany have to wake up to the realisation that the plan has not worked. The plan will not work. 2015 is going to be a big year for Europe and selling IW off will make f all of an impact on that.

papu

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

so you are saying we will give IW our valuable national asset of water as we need to pay back cash to our masters.So not about conservation or fixing leaks.The Troika and IMF is making us sell off our water rights.

No they made us put in meters , so we adopt a consumer pays model like most other countries in the Eu.

twowheelsgood

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

so you are saying we will give IW our valuable national asset of water as we need to pay back cash to our masters.

No. The deficit reduction will come from the monies that would have been spent to provide water if water is to be paid for directly. (The money that people thing they are paying twice)

And they are our creditors, not our masters.

Caliden

papu wrote: »

No they made us put in meters , so we adopt a consumer pays model like most other countries in the Eu.

Stop trying to compare apples to oranges.

They may have water charges but other charges like motor tax are minuscule.

If they are going to introduce a model like that then adjust other areas where there is heavy tax.

Until then, there's zero point in saying other countries charge for water so we should too!

Lucy and Harry

We are citizens not customers.Food clothing alcohol and cigs cost more here than the rest of Europe.Now water will follow.

And they are our creditors, not our masters.

Are we still a sovereign country.They say jump we say how high.They own us and our kids and kids kids.They tell us how to run the country.Our ''leaders'' seem to serve them not us.

twowheelsgood

listermint wrote: »

This is Europes Debt, and Europe (germany) will have to address it.

How is the non-banking part of the debt Europe's?

listermint

twowheelsgood wrote: »

No. The deficit reduction will come from the monies that would have been spent to provide water if water is to be paid for directly. (The money that people thing they are paying twice)

And they are our creditors, not our masters.

Whats next the twowheels, what do we privatise next ? Perhaps Health, Sure it works in the States doesnt it full blown private health.

Maybe we privatise the police service ? Dont they have private police in some african nations ? Since all the lads on here are all about making comparisons to other countries OECD.

What else can we sell to settle up 'our' tab. Schools ? Close the colleges.

Have you looked at the statistics lately on Graduate Exportation ? No ? Where are these young people going to come from that will push the Economy forward if they are all f'n off out of here.

DamagedTrax

papu wrote: »

Ever use a bank?

not in the last 7 years. and even then it was a current account for my wages alone (which i'd have preffered not to have had to use).

money went in friday morning, money was taken out friday afternoon.

like i said. i have no debt (aside from a tenner i owe my mate since the weekend).