***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

listermint

twowheelsgood wrote: »

How is the non-banking part of the debt Europe's?

You know i didnt say that, So you took out one bit of one sentence out of my post. Is that the best you can do ?

Really!?

listermint

DamagedTrax wrote: »

not in the last 7 years. and even then it was a current account for my wages alone (which i'd have preffered not to have had to use).

money went in friday morning, money was taken out friday afternoon.

like i said. i have no debt (aside from a tenner i owe my mate since the weekend).

You Partied. Partied like a lunatic. I bet you have a belt too.

nigh on time you used it.

DamagedTrax

twowheelsgood wrote: »

You can argue that the 64 billion bank portion is not yours (or mine).

The rest very much is. Unless you can point out that during the boom you received no PS wage rise, to tax cuts, no SSIA money, no welfare payment increase etc. etc.

i never worked PS
i never agreed to take tax cuts that would mean i incurred debt at a later date
i never took an ssia
i wasnt on welfare

DamagedTrax

listermint wrote: »

You Partied. Partied like a lunatic. I bet you have a belt too.

nigh on time you used it.

you reckon?

please tell me about my partying in detail or retract the statement please.

Irish Steve

Barely There wrote: »

Since the implosion of the PD's there is literally no socially liberal, fiscally responsible party for people who are sick of the FF/FG duopoly, suspicious of Labour's ties with their trade Union buddies, horrified at the thoughts of the Shinners ever getting within an ass's roar of power, and utterly appalled at the conglomerate of loony hard-left nincompoop's banging the anti-austerity drum.

I'm convinced there is a huge appetite for such a party, but I think that the people most in favour are too busy working and paying their taxes to actually keep the show in the road to be able to set something up.

I think there is a place for a new party too, but the mountain that would have to be climbed to make it happen is massive, and the system is set up to make it very hard, to protect the existing status quo.

There would be no state funding for a new party, and most of the people that are most interested in such a party (yes, like me) are to the pin of their collar just surviving, and finding the sums needed to generate any sort of acceptable campaign that would be visible is going to be a huge ask, given the present system of plastering every lamp post in the country with massive sneering face posters every election, and all the other significant costs that would be incurred in building some sort of presence that's actually visible, and (MORE IMPORTANTLY) actually attractive to the people that are used to voting the same as they've always done.

Right now, I can't afford to buy the basics, like heating oil, our allowance for food bills is under €50 per week for 2 of us, and I've got plenty of other problems that mean spending money on political aspirations just can't happen, how ever much I might like it to.

What's needed, and doesn't seem to be possible at the moment, is a leader with some charisma and personality that's not tainted and mired in the corruption and cronysim of the old system.

Before he was destroyed by the FG party mechanism, I had hopes that George Lee might have been a suitable figurehead for a new party, but he was seen as a real threat by the political elite, and destroyed by them, very quickly and effectively, clearly he worried them because he could see through the sham, and was prepared to do something to try and change it, so he had to be neutralised very rapidly, and they did a serious number on him very rapidly.

For the first time in probably 25 years, there is a widespread dissatisfaction with all of the major parties, and an awareness that things are very much not working in favour of the people, but taking that awareness, and turning it into a positive force for good that will be strong enough to see a new party formed, structured, and ready to take the fight to the existing party structures is going to be very hard to achieve, the old FF/FG loyalties are deep rooted and deep seated, and if they don't change, then any new party will suffer the same fate as the PD's, and it's notable that a number of former PD councillors moved into both FF and FG when the PD's were disbanded, which only goes to emphasise my fears about trying to break the existing party system and structures.

I've just read a very telling article from today's press.

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/poplife/2014/11/03/irelands-political-vacuum/

She's saying pretty much the same, and wondering why there is nothing happening to fill the incredible vacuum that exists right now. Perhaps we're not quite there yet,

Enda's certainly helping to raise the ante by being so ignorant and uncaring in his dismissal of the legitimate concerns of the people, and if IW keep scoring own goals as they seem to be doing, perhaps the temperature will rise enough to produce something that will rise out of the obscurity and fog that surrounds the whole political scene right now.

I hope so, I really do, I'd like Ireland to be a good place for my grand children to live in, right now, I fear for their future.

listermint

DamagedTrax wrote: »

you reckon?

please tell me about my partying in detail or retract the statement please.

It was a jolly damage.

twowheelsgood

listermint wrote: »

You know i didnt say that

Yeah, you did.

listermint wrote: »

This is Europes Debt, and Europe (germany) will have to address it.

This. Not some of. Not one third of. This.

Take out the banking debt if you want. My substantial point remains. Adding 7 billion per year to a 136 billion national debt is folly.

DamagedTrax

listermint wrote: »

It was a jolly damage.

maybe for you. i was early 20's with a kid, working my arse off to pay rent in a place that i could bring a child up in.

if by partying you mean a few weekends on the piss then yea, you're bang on. but there was no property bubble for me. there was no flash cars, no swimming pool in my back garden.

i just got on with trying to get a few quid together for a small holiday every 2 or 3 years while saving up to try to get a college education in an industry our government didnt provide a 'free' education for.

jolly, it was not.

twowheelsgood

listermint wrote: »

Whats next the twowheels, what do we privatise next ?

Ok, so you're obviously on a wind up. Well played son!

FionnK86

Just read that Laura McGonigle received death threats over her comments about protesters drinking water. Protesting against water charges is fair enough, but there is no need to threaten someone's life over a bad comment on a social media site. Water Charges and the debate around it is serious, but the Sh!ts who threaten someone's life give the protesters a bad name.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/overwhelmed-cork-councillor-gets-death-threats-over-comments-649770.html

Larbre34

mzungu wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-rules-out-referendum-to-halt-sale-of-irish-water-649762.html

Good man Enda, not even entertaining the idea of a referendum :rolleyes:

I'm against IW, but I agree with Enda on this. Stupid government tools coming out the last few days calling for a referendum.

The constitution has been abused enough with amendments regarding things that have nothing to do with the structure and direction of a republic, and utilities should not be in there either.

It could backfire badly as so much constitutional tampering has before and the Supreme Court will say "every person has the right to own a bucket"

papu

Caliden wrote: »

Stop trying to compare apples to oranges.

They may have water charges but other charges like motor tax are minuscule.

If they are going to introduce a model like that then adjust other areas where there is heavy tax.

Until then, there's zero point in saying other countries charge for water so we should too!

Motor tax is a system based on the size and emissions of the engine.

A Polluter(consumer pays) model.

Lets say I dont own a car.
Lets say I dont earn enough to pay tax.
But i take baths every second day , and offer to wash all my neighbours cars for free .
Hows it feel paying for my water? This a fair way to do things?

Daith

Tanaiste Joan Burton tells Dail that family of 2 parents & 2 young adults will pay less than €200 in #watercharges More on #sixone news

https://twitter.com/bryansixone/status/529675447433719808

Hum, so as I'm living in my house with one housemate and our bill was going to be €276 or something is this going to change?

Lucy and Harry

they can raise the cost when ever they want.They will suck the people dry.

Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins said the Government is "dazed, punch-drunk and panic stricken" and is climbing from crutch to crutch to save "their political hides".

He said: "There is an uprising of working class people that you don't see... Get real, abolish the water charges."

masculinist

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

they can raise the cost when ever they want.They will suck the people dry.

This is just like the mafia running a protection racket and opening the books of an honest businessman to see what he can bear until his back breaks. Like all mafias the welfare of the honest businessman is not their concern. See past the subterfuge. Anyone remember the Lisbon Treaty ? Vote Yes for jobs they said. The jobs left. Positive reports of economic growth in the media from ''EU sources'' released nationwide today are just the same hippy dreamcrap propaganda we faced during the Lisbon campaigns. Shut up and do what we say and things will get better or stay the same. People in fear with the ostrich mentality is exactly what they are hoping for. They have nothing to offer us. In a Republic they must listen to us.

listermint

DamagedTrax wrote: »

maybe for you. i was early 20's with a kid, working my arse off to pay rent in a place that i could bring a child up in.

if by partying you mean a few weekends on the piss then yea, you're bang on. but there was no property bubble for me. there was no flash cars, no swimming pool in my back garden.

i just got on with trying to get a few quid together for a small holiday every 2 or 3 years while saving up to try to get a college education in an industry our government didnt provide a 'free' education for.

jolly, it was not.

no i was joking from the start. Read my post but in a sarcastic way


'you partied' etc sarcastically.

Banjo String

papu wrote: »

Motor tax is a system based on the size and emissions of the engine.

A Polluter(consumer pays) model.

Lets say I dont own a car.
Lets say I dont earn enough to pay tax.
But i take baths every second day , and offer to wash all my neighbours cars for free .
Hows it feel paying for my water? This a fair way to do things?

You buy stuff though, right?

Well some of that stuff is vat applicable.

You've contributed towards water.

DamagedTrax

listermint wrote: »

no i was joking from the start. Read my post but in a sarcastic way


'you partied' etc sarcastically.

sorry dude, heads in the clouds today

listermint

papu wrote: »

Motor tax is a system based on the size and emissions of the engine.

A Polluter(consumer pays) model.

Lets say I dont own a car.
Lets say I dont earn enough to pay tax.
But i take baths every second day , and offer to wash all my neighbours cars for free .
Hows it feel paying for my water? This a fair way to do things?

lols,

Then Price on Fuel would be the comparison. Ridiculous comparison . Dont get me started on the emissions nonsense. Polluter pays doesnt even come into it.

listermint

had to quote this comment from that irish times article its fairly spot on

I think the author has managed to either ignore or completely misunderstand the root cause of public disengagement with national and local politics and what is finally driving the public to march in protest.
There is no significant difference in ‘political ideology’ between Dail parties. They are all more or less the same. All, when judged by their actions rather than their utterances, are broadly content with the permanent government and uninterested in change. This despite the daily evidence of incompetence, waste, blatant cronyism, lying and empire-building by many parts of that permanent government and the party system that fronts it. The underlying unprincipled behaviour, addiction to spin, refusal to deal with unpalatable truths and opacity has finally become unacceptable.
There are no easy answers to this development. The state’s permanent government is so thoroughly politicised, detached from principle and subject to political influence that it is essentially unreformable.
The Irish Water quango formation exemplified all that is unacceptable to the taxpayer but apparently impossible for the state to clearly understand. Legions of underutilised bureaucrats transferred into an enormous secretive quango, led by a board with a revolving door to the political parties. Endemically overpaid staff. Operational policy made up on the hoof. Customer service ranging from the functional to the awful. No apparent focus on water network renewal. A CEO with less than impressive track record in delivering value for money who seems to consider extensive political interference with his role as chief planner, visionary and custodian of the assets to be acceptable.

Creative Juices

listermint wrote: »

had to quote this comment from that irish times article its fairly spot on

Absolutely spot on. Have you a link to the article?

DamagedTrax

Banjo String wrote: »

All's needed now for the Govt to disintegrate is for them to get Revenue involved.

**crosses fingers**

very first line of this article suggests they may still try it.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-pps-number-revenue-alan-kelly-1762183-Nov2014/

Going Forward

Creative Juices wrote: »

Absolutely spot on. Have you a link to the article?

If you select a half sentence or so from the article, then copy and paste it into Google's search box, you will be returned with a link.

mikom

Banjo String wrote: »

All's needed now for the Govt to disintegrate is for them to get Revenue involved.

**crosses fingers**

Will be the first time Revenue have collected on behalf of a private company a person has refused to contract with.

Up next, Revenue says "give me money for that Ryanair flight you never booked".

Going Forward

FionnK86 wrote: »

Just read that Laura McGonigle received death threats over her comments about protesters drinking water. Protesting against water charges is fair enough, but there is no need to threaten someone's life over a bad comment on a social media site. Water Charges and the debate around it is serious, but the Sh!ts who threaten someone's life give the protesters a bad name.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/overwhelmed-cork-councillor-gets-death-threats-over-comments-649770.html

Couldn't agree more.

The more I read of the uneducated comments by imbeciles on the journal.ie the more it swings me in favour of charging everyone something for water.

Someone posted what were claimed to be the addresses of UE Directors on FB on the grounds that they know where you live so you're entitled to know where they live...

The result of the protests is that once again the middle earner will subsidise the welfare recipient.

The SW recipient will pay for cheaper water, subsidised by the PAYE worker which totally skews any broadening of the tax base nonsense as it does for conservation or incentivising paid employment.

I've said this twice already and not one response or challenge.

I don't like what I see on most of these youtube videos of metering either TBH.

As for Sinn Fein, the sort of people we remember from school, the local tough men, you'd always nod to them, to keep in with them.

You wouldn't actually want them in charge of anything.

DamagedTrax

Going Forward wrote: »

The SW recipient will pay for cheaper water, subsidised by the PAYE worker which totally skews any broadening of the tax base nonsense as it does for conservation or incentivising paid employment.

I've said this twice already and not one response or challenge.

Firstly i am 100% against this charge as it stands.

But im a bit confused as to why you think that a progressive model should not be employed?

why charge the lowest income at the same rate as the highest earner?

Larbre34

Looking at the news there, I think it's very appropriate that Minister Alan Kelly and John Tierney's photocall today should take place above a massive tank of foaming sh1te, for that is the world which they inhabit.

Going Forward

DamagedTrax wrote: »

Firstly i am 100% against this charge as it stands.

But im a bit confused as to why you think that a progressive model should not be employed?

why charge the lowest income at the same rate as the highest earner?

As things stand, the government has unwittingly hammered a wedge through the country, playing into Sinn Feins hands.

Half those protesting don't really know why they're protesting, and the bufoon Kenny just stated that the protests have the possibility of making PAYE tax payers liable for an extra 4%.

Is this what those protesting actually want?

Will anyone admit it if it is?

This whole thing should be put to bed as is, scrap the pointless allowances, delete all PPS numbers, and forget about any imagined savings.

There is no honesty from government about full cost charging, it's no wonder.

Nor any suggestion from the pro IW here that they'd be happy to cough up six or seven hundred a year for water.

This is the biggest totally self made political cock up I can remember, and it has the potential to seriously divide communities.

It's not worth pursuing.

As regards, concessions, there's no real poverty in Ireland, I don't see what the fuss is over €2 or €3 per week.

(Yes there is a common inability to manage money or prioritise what it is being spent on.)

And this is where the lack of governance shines through, it won't stay at this rate, but will be multiples of it sooner or later but no one asks about it and certainly no one in government will bring it up.

As regards protecting against privatising, why not create a requirement for a future referendum if privatisation is ever mooted in the future.

It would be cheaper and no one has the appetite for another referendum at the moment, because no one will believe what the Government says on the matter at this point.

They've lost credibility.

Nice one Fine Fail and the other party.

Highflyer13

Larbre34 wrote: »

Looking at the news there, I think it's very appropriate that Minister Alan Kelly and John Tierney's photocall today should take place above a massive tank of foaming sh1te, for that is the world which they inhabit.

John Tierney dragged out in front of the media again. Well we making great strides altogether so. Irish water a company for the people.:pac:

moxin

Burton now says 200 quid is a NET charge after credits applied, our beloved RTE quote govt sources as saying her words are more hopeful than factual..LOL http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1104/656768-irish-water/

In other news, Tierney has said water pipe leakage is at 48%. 500m was spent installing meters, why didn't they fix the leaks FIRST with this money?