***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

DamagedTrax

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I think you and I have a different opinion of who is in poverty. You look at the rougher areas and you probably see them as living in poverty. In actual fact they likely have more in the way of local services and facilities as well as luxury items than you or I. The real people struggling on the poverty line tend to be decent folk who wouldn't stoop to violence because of something so minor.

i live in one of the roughest areas in dublin. they've even based scenes of love/hate on incidents that happened here. local services are non existent anymore.

i know the types you are talking about. on the dole, flash car, 52" tv etc..

that is a minority in this area, some of it is down to people dealing the marching powder im sure. they're the people we are actively trying to rid of.

there are many more that dont stoop to dealing, there are many in what yipee quoted earlier as being real poverty. bar the water and sanitation as i said earlier.. for now.

Valetta

DamagedTrax wrote: »

there are many more that dont stoop to dealing, there are many in what yipee quoted earlier as being real poverty. bar the water and sanitation as i said earlier.. for now.

What do they do with all their social welfare payments and allowances?

listermint

http://www.forbes.com/sites/meghabahree/2014/11/05/whos-to-blame-for-the-increasing-gap-between-the-rich-and-the-poor-market-economy-says-new-report/

Many of today’s richest people made their fortunes thanks to the exclusive government concessions and privatization that came with
market fundamentalism

At the start of 2014 the richest 85 people on the planet owned as much as the poorest half of humanity, the report says. Between March 2013 and March 2014, these 85 people grew $668 million richer each day. According to Oxfam’s math, if Bill Gates were to cash in all of his wealth, and spend a million dollars every single day, it would take him 218 years to spend it all. In reality though, he would never run out of money: even a modest return of just under 2% would make him $4.2 million each day in interest alone, the report says. (To be fair, Gates and his wife, along with fellow billionaire Warren Buffet, set up the giving pledge, an effort to get some of the wealthiest people to give away at least 50% of their wealth in their lifetime or upon their death. Other billionaires have joined in since.)

When public services are not free at the point of use, millions of ordinary women and men are excluded from accessing healthcare and education. Every year, 100 million people worldwide are pushed into poverty because they have to pay out-of-pocket for healthcare, the report says. Instead, countries are opting for public-private partnerships to provide those services and offer tax breaks to private companies (amongst other incentives) to come on board, a questionable practice according to Oxfam

So we end up giving Tax Breaks and Subsidies to Private companies for services that were in public ownership in the first place.

Is this the direction Ireland is headed?

ROCKMAN

Valetta wrote: »

What do they do with all their social welfare payments and allowances?

Feed, educate and care for their kids , Pay their bills as best they can . (rolling method most likely to be used )
And get on with life.

DamagedTrax

Valetta wrote: »

What do they do with all their social welfare payments and allowances?

they usually juggle it about from week to week deciding on which bills they can afford. food & rent is most likely number 1 on the list. after that take your pick in any order.

im pretty sure you're going to bleat on about the people on 2000euro a day because they got pregnant at 12 and had a 5 bed house off the council by 16.

i'll save you the trouble, thats media propaganda based on very specific cases, many of which have been idnetified by welfare and dealt with (they're still ongoing in this process). its a little bullet they like to shoot in the direction of the middle classes to get us riled up and hating the scabs that bleed our welfare system dry.

this is what our society has become, hatred directed at the wrong people thru fear brought about by a corrupt media and ruling class. or as the educated call it 'politics 101'.

Valetta

they usually juggle it about from week to week deciding on which bills they can afford. food & rent is most likely number 1 on the list. after that take your pick in any order.

I other words, budget like everyone else.

im pretty sure you're going to bleat on about the people on 2000euro a day because they got pregnant at 12 and had a 5 bed house off the council by 16.

I'm pretty sure I'm not.

i'll save you the trouble, thats media propaganda based on very specific cases, many of which have been idnetified by welfare and dealt with (they're still ongoing in this process). its a little bullet they like to shoot in the direction of the middle classes to get us riled up and hating the scabs that bleed our welfare system dry.

No trouble - see above.

this is what our society has become, hatred directed at the wrong people thru fear brought about by a corrupt media and ruling class. or as the educated call it 'politics 101'

Where are you seeing hatred?

And none of your post addresses the point that nobody needs to live in poverty, given the social supports and payments available.

Geuze

yipeeeee wrote: »

And tell me how they came to this even 750,000.

Did they visit each home in Ireland and spend time with each family and notice them going to bed hungry.

Stop would ya.

Figures just plucked out of a few surveys.

Poverty is measured by the EU-SILC survey, see here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/silc/2012/silc_2012.pdf

16.5% of the pop are "at-risk-of-poverty" AROP.

Note that plenty of people AROP would not consider themselves poor, but the stats count them as poor.

AROP means you have a relatively low income, that's all.


The 2012 threshold is 10,621 per adult disposable income. Under that and you are AROP.

DamagedTrax

Valetta wrote: »

And none of your post addresses the point that nobody needs to live in poverty, given the social supports and payments available.

yup. poverty is a choice. carry on.

Valetta

DamagedTrax wrote: »

yup. poverty is a choice. carry on.

What's your point?

geeksauce

Geuze wrote: »

Poverty is measured by the EU-SILC survey, see here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/silc/2012/silc_2012.pdf

16.5% of the pop are "at-risk-of-poverty" AROP.

Note that plenty of people AROP would not consider themselves poor, but the stats count them as poor.

AROP means you have a relatively low income, that's all.


The 2012 threshold is 10,621 per adult disposable income. Under that and you are AROP.

Is that 10,621 per adult disposable income per year, as in anyone with less than 10,621 disposable income per year is AROP?

Little CuChulainn

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Thank you for clearing that up ,But the one thing I would strongly argue against is your claim about local services ,
Local services and support Projects /Groups Nationwide have had their funding nearly wiped out over the last 8 years and have been the one off /if not the worst hit area since the recession started, In most areas these support services are barely surviving .

There are still more services and facilities available in the so called under privileged areas than any others, especially in Dublin. Community centres, football pitches, swimming pools, astro turfs, playgrounds, even horse facilities, all subsidised. That's to say nothing of the educational facilities and community support services. They may have had their budgets cut but they are still very prominent.

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i live in one of the roughest areas in dublin. they've even based scenes of love/hate on incidents that happened here. local services are non existent anymore.

i know the types you are talking about. on the dole, flash car, 52" tv etc..

that is a minority in this area, some of it is down to people dealing the marching powder im sure. they're the people we are actively trying to rid of.

there are many more that dont stoop to dealing, there are many in what yipee quoted earlier as being real poverty. bar the water and sanitation as i said earlier.. for now.

I'm not talking about the dealers who have flash cars. I'm talking about the people who simply contribute nothing and live comfortably on welfare. I just don't class that as poverty.

DamagedTrax

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I'm talking about the people who simply contribute nothing and live comfortably on welfare. I just don't class that as poverty.

neither do i. they arent the people i'm talking about though.

also, on your comment about local services.

in my own area:

Community centres - 1 thats in absolute tatters
football pitches - none in the area, they're about 15 mins walk away (only local is a private GAA)
swimming pools - nope
astro turfs - nope
playgrounds - a few. one is nice, they rest are health hazards
even horse facilities - nope

DamagedTrax

Valetta wrote: »

What's your point?

you made my point for me.

Valetta

DamagedTrax wrote: »

you made my point for me.

Which was?

Little CuChulainn

DamagedTrax wrote: »

neither do i. they arent the people i'm talking about though.

also, on your comment about local services.

in my own area:

Community centres - 1 thats in absolute tatters
football pitches - none in the area, they're about 15 mins walk away (only local is a private GAA)
swimming pools - nope
astro turfs - nope
playgrounds - a few. one is nice, they rest are health hazards
even horse facilities - nope

I find that hard to believe, particularly since you refer to areas incidents in Love/Hate are based on. But since it would be unfair to ask you to go into further detail, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

DamagedTrax

Valetta wrote: »

Which was?

that you believe poverty is a choice. after you said that, all hopes of reasonable conversation went out the window. in other words im not even going to continue a discussion about poverty, with someone who believes its a choice.

so like i said, carry on.

DamagedTrax

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I find that hard to believe, particularly since you refer to areas incidents in Love/Hate are based on. But since it would be unfair to ask you to go into further detail, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

i wish it werent true. the local kids spend their days robbing the local shop, they have literally nowhere to go (not that im excusing them mind!). recently a cashier got beaten about with a golf club by a minor. the cops walk past once or twice a day and claim that the problems arent real. yet they never manage to spot the little lookout that sends 20 odd kids scarpering past our windows every few hours.

i wish it were different, i wish no area had this bs to deal with but the fact is that a number of areas do.

Valetta

DamagedTrax wrote: »

that you believe poverty is a choice. after you said that, all hopes of reasonable conversation went out the window. in other words im not even going to continue a discussion about poverty, with someone who believes its a choice.

so like i said, carry on.

Ok.

Give me an example of a person, or family that you believe are living in poverty.

Income, outgoings etc.

listermint

The Cracks are getting DEEPER


http://www.newstalk.com/Coalition-votes-against-each-other-in-Seanad-over-Irish-Water-debate

Fine Gael and Labour have voted against each other for the first time in the history of the current government.

Labour senators joined the opposition to approve calls for a referendum to make sure Irish Water cannot be sold.

The party backed a vote calling for a referendum on Irish Water privatisation.

The Seanad voted unanimously to approve the plans by Fianna Fáil.

The Environment Minister Alan Kelly has spoken in the chamber on Irish Water, and says setting up the utility was the right thing to do.

Go on the people!

geeksauce

listermint wrote: »

The Cracks are getting DEEPER


http://www.newstalk.com/Coalition-votes-against-each-other-in-Seanad-over-Irish-Water-debate





Go on the people!

This is only the beginning I think, it was inevitable that Labour were going to start disagreeing with FG. They have been taking a hammering lately and will have one eye on the next general election, they are being seen as nothing more than FG's lapdogs and will spend the next 18months fighting against them in an effort to save some seats at the GE.

ROCKMAN

According to RTE news The result in the Seanad will have no real power and can be just basically ignored by the Government ,,
but the real fun would/will start when and if the government try to add to the legislation around Irish Water , they will need the Seanad to pass any changes.

In Lonesome Dove

I did a rough calculation on a water bill for myself. For a household of 3 adults. Taking the governments average Irish person use of water a day being - 100L.

3 x 100 x 365 = 109500
This will be 109.5m3

Minus the household allowance of 30m3
109.5 m3 - 30 m3 = 79.5

= 79.5 m3 x 4.88 = 387.96

The Europeans have an average of 130L per day per person.

3 x 130 x 365 = 142350
= 142.3 m3
Minus the household allowance = 112.3

112.3 x 4.88 = 548.02

The average daily use for a person in the UK is 153L

3 x 153 x 365 = 167535L
= 167.5 m3

167.5m3 - 30m3 = 137.5

137.5 x 4.88 = 671

listermint

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

I did a rough calculation on a water bill for myself. For a household of 3 adults. Taking the governments average Irish person use of water a day being - 100L.

3 x 100 x 365 = 109500
This will be 109.5m3

Minus the household allowance of 30m3
109.5 m3 - 30 m3 = 79.5

= 79.5 m3 x 4.88 = 387.96

The Europeans have an average of 130L per day per person.

3 x 130 x 365 = 142350
= 142.3 m3
Minus the household allowance = 112.3

112.3 x 4.88 = 548.02

The average daily use for a person in the UK is 153L

3 x 153 x 365 = 167535L
= 167.5 m3

167.5m3 - 30m3 = 137.5

137.5 x 4.88 = 671

The European figures are current. What is your figures for when they remove allowances which will be in about 18 months. Do you have them ?

BoJack Horseman

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

I did a rough calculation on a water bill for myself. For a household of 3 adults. Taking the governments average Irish person use of water a day being - 100L.

3 x 100 x 365 = 109500
This will be 109.5m3

Minus the household allowance of 30m3
109.5 m3 - 30 m3 = 79.5

= 79.5 m3 x 4.88 = 387.96

The Europeans have an average of 130L per day per person.

3 x 130 x 365 = 142350
= 142.3 m3
Minus the household allowance = 112.3

112.3 x 4.88 = 548.02

The average daily use for a person in the UK is 153L

3 x 153 x 365 = 167535L
= 167.5 m3

167.5m3 - 30m3 = 137.5

137.5 x 4.88 = 671

The flat rate might be better for you.
That's €387, but at least you have flexibility.

Then there is the €100 tax credit, so €287 net.

BoJack Horseman

listermint wrote: »

The European figures are current. What is your figures for when they remove allowances which will be in about 18 months. Do you have them ?

If you opt not to take the allowances its €527 for 3xadults (excl tax credit).

Valetta

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

I did a rough calculation on a water bill for myself. For a household of 3 adults. Taking the governments average Irish person use of water a day being - 100L.

3 x 100 x 365 = 109500
This will be 109.5m3

Minus the household allowance of 30m3
109.5 m3 - 30 m3 = 79.5

= 79.5 m3 x 4.88 = 387.96

The Europeans have an average of 130L per day per person.

3 x 130 x 365 = 142350
= 142.3 m3
Minus the household allowance = 112.3

112.3 x 4.88 = 548.02

The average daily use for a person in the UK is 153L

3 x 153 x 365 = 167535L
= 167.5 m3

167.5m3 - 30m3 = 137.5

137.5 x 4.88 = 671

So €129.32 per person.

That's about €2.48 per week.

Seems good value to me.

In Lonesome Dove

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

I did a rough calculation on a water bill for myself. For a household of 3 adults. Taking the governments average Irish person use of water a day being - 100L.

3 x 100 x 365 = 109500
This will be 109.5m3

Minus the household allowance of 30m3
109.5 m3 - 30 m3 = 79.5

= 79.5 m3 x 4.88 = 387.96

The Europeans have an average of 130L per day per person.

3 x 130 x 365 = 142350
= 142.3 m3
Minus the household allowance = 112.3

112.3 x 4.88 = 548.02

The average daily use for a person in the UK is 153L

3 x 153 x 365 = 167535L
= 167.5 m3

167.5m3 - 30m3 = 137.5

137.5 x 4.88 = 671

Whats the break down of using 130L? It looks a very high number for one person to use from themselves in their home on a normal day considering they will be at work most of the day.

Streetwalker

Worked our bill out few weeks back and it was in and around the 480 a year mark and that's with being careful. Brother worked his out a little higher think it was 525 a year. Doesn't make a difference to me either way as im not paying twice and I know it will be privatised and increased over time but I thought it was interesting because we are told it will be around 240 a year lol. Anyway good luck to those paying you will be sorry in a few years time when the bills for 800-1000 a year start to drop through the letterbox.

Valetta

Streetwalker wrote: »

Worked our bill out few weeks back and it was in and around the 480 a year mark and that's with being careful. Brother worked his out a little higher think it was 525 a year. Doesn't make a difference to me either way as im not paying twice and I know it will be privatised and increased over time but I thought it was interesting because we are told it will be around 240 a year lol. Anyway good luck to those paying you will be sorry in a few years time when the bills for 800-1000 a year start to drop through the letterbox.

For how many people?

listermint

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

If you opt not to take the allowances its €527 for 3xadults (excl tax credit).

Your figures are pure fabrication. We keep on being told 'next week' 'next week' Its quite clear they have their heads up their arses on the whole thing.

You and Me and nobody in this thread knows that they will be paying as the figures are changing all the time.

And you can be dam sure whatever figure they come out with now, will not be the same or even remotely the same in 2018.

I can draw a graph but you might not understand it. Its goes UP and to the right.