***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

humanji

MOD: Threads merged.

Rips

seamus wrote: »

Yes, if that was the solution on the table. It's not.

You temporarily have it because you have specific circumstances, which most of the rest of the country don't. I'm not going to be paying a flat charge, so why would I oppose it?

You can certainly claim to be a victim of circumstance, but you can't claim that the entire thing is inherently flawed because of your circumstance.

Do you complain too that you pay the same bin charges as your neighbours even though you produce less waste?

So the system is fine then as you are not personally affected. You've agreed water is a utility but you have no consideration for those who may only be able to pay for usage within their means?

I am not a 'victim' of anything, but there will be victims and I certainly can claim the system in inequitable because it is. Meters for all, or a tax for all.

The arrangements for waste management were in situ before I signed a lease, and they are part of the tenancy agreement I signed. Nothing to do with a government quango or provision of utilities (such as electricity)

Furthermore if I found that I was unable to pay the fixed annual charge for waste collection (which as it happens works out much cheaper then door to door bin collection) I would simply lose my access to the waste compound and would have to organise alternate means to get rid of my waste, which many people do anyway to avoid the high cost of door to door bin collection services, such as going to the recycling plant or dump.

Its an inequitable system, as water is a basic necessity, and you can't place a blanket tax on people to use it irrespective of their means.

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

animaal

geeksauce wrote: »

Why would anyone want to pay a regular flat charge?

I believe the introduction of these charges has very little to do with conserving water (like the household tax has little to do with local services), and everything to do with improving the state's balance sheet. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's a burden I think should be shared more equally, rather than increasing it for those who happen to have a mortgage, or those who use more water.

end of the road

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Irish water is not regulated, the ombudsman has no powers over it. It has no other competition so it's an unregulated monopoly

well at least its state owned and not a bunch of private monopolies/cartels screwing everybody left right and centre like the UK where that loony mrs thatcher decided that forcing people to pay over inflated prices to greedy private companies for vital services with in the heal of the hunt little to no choice was a good idea.

Mr McBoatface

end of the road wrote: »

well at least its state owned and not a bunch of private monopolies/cartels screwing everybody left right and centre like the UK where that loony mrs thatcher decided that forcing people to pay over inflated prices to greedy private companies for vital services with in the heal of the hunt little to no choice was a good idea.

It's a private company by shares "Irish Water. Private Company Limited by Shares. Registered Office Colvill House, 24-26 Talbot Street, Dublin 1. Registered in Ireland. Registered No. 530363"

The state can sell it's shares at any time. The ombudsman expressed his concerns about them being unregulated - http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/people-cannot-make-complaints-to-ombudsman-about-irish-water-631914.html

geeksauce

animaal wrote: »

I believe the introduction of these charges has very little to do with conserving water (like the household tax has little to do with local services), and everything to do with improving the state's balance sheet. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's a burden I think should be shared more equally, rather than increasing it for those who happen to have a mortgage, or those who use more water.

These charges will certainly help with water conservation, the main reason they were brought in was to balance the books however there is no question that water conservation will be a direct result of these charges.

Nobody cares now if they leave a tap running all day, whereas from the 01st October they will care as they will be running money down the drain.

Those that use the most water should pay the most its a very simple concept and definitely promotes fairness across the board.

Daith

geeksauce wrote: »

Nobody cares now if they leave a tap running all day, whereas from the 01st October they will care as they will be running money down the drain.

Those that use the most water should pay the most its a very simple concept and definitely promotes fairness across the board.

Unless they're unmetered of course.

animaal

geeksauce wrote: »

These charges will certainly help with water conservation, the main reason they were brought in was to balance the books however there is no question that water conservation will be a direct result of these charges.

If the overall population decreased its water usage in the morning by 10%, how much of a financial saving would that make for the state? I would hazard a guess that the saving would be either non-existant or very small. A lot of the costs in the system are probably relatively fixed; e.g. infrastructure and staff.

Now, we know there are a lot of costs in setting up Irish Water, installing meters, and the ongoing costs of both. We the taxpayers need pay for it all, either through taxation, water charges, or (as is being implemented) a combination of both.

I could be proven wrong, but I believe the metering approach will cost us more, even if water consumption is reduced as a result. And the issue is cost rather than scarcity.

geeksauce

animaal wrote: »

If the overall population decreased its water usage in the morning by 10%, how much of a financial saving would that make for the state? I would hazard a guess that the saving would be either non-existant or very small. A lot of the costs in the system are probably relatively fixed; e.g. infrastructure and staff.

Now, we know there are a lot of costs in setting up Irish Water, installing meters, and the ongoing costs of both. We the taxpayers need pay for it all, either through taxation, water charges, or (as is being implemented) a combination of both.

I could be proven wrong, but I believe the metering approach will cost us more, even if water consumption is reduced as a result. And the issue is cost rather than scarcity.

Not talking about savings to the state, in fact the more water people use the better for the state. Water conservation deals with savings to the environment and would have a major effect on the environment, water is not an infinite resource and should be conserved.

Wombatman

I would love to hear the arguments in the court case of unmetered guy who didn't pay bill vs Irish Water.

Legal Dude: So Irish Water rep, how much did this despicable leach, who is not paying, use?

Irish Water Rep: Ammmm.... well....aaaaaaa.

Don't be filling out any forms until you are sure you are metered.

Leroy42

^^and then IW legal guy stands up and says that the legislation in place allows for IW to charge on a flat basis for all those who have not got a meter installed. So they are applying the legislation and are now looking got Legal Dude's client to act in a lawful manner and pay his bills.

At which point I assume the well known and accepted plea of 'but I don't want to' will be invoked!

Wombatman

Leroy42 wrote: »

^^and then IW legal guy stands up and says that the legislation in place allows for IW to charge on a flat basis for all those who have not got a meter installed. So they are applying the legislation and are now looking got Legal Dude's client to act in a lawful manner and pay his bills.

At which point I assume the well known and accepted plea of 'but I don't want to' will be invoked!

Even if they don't use the service?

cookie24

I wonder how long it will take for IW to break-even, and start giving money to the government? The cost of installation must be massive, along with the consultancy fees, and the lovely gym they built themselves.

I'll say it once again....it should have been done like TV licence. No metering, just an annual bill. At minimum cost to the state.

Old boardie22

Sorry have to disagree totally... We shouldn't be paying for the very substance that there is more of than anything else on the planet.. This is just another shame to get money out of people and is actually all down to "U.N Agenda 21". Look up the PDF on line.. Total scam.. I for one will not be receiving any meter or paying for something that falls from the sky on a regular basis.. Want to buy into the lies, I mean reasons why it's coming in.. Be my guest.. It's illegal as illegal..
Firstly the water is flouridated (poison/carcinogen/toxic) which is a case of mass un-permissioned medication (just look up where it comes from/ industrial waste/ which is cheaper to dispose of in everybody's water under the ole blagg it's good for teeth and bones, totally to the contrary of nearly every study done into the stuff)
Also half of the country's water is foul mud coloured ****e that no **** but bacteria can live off...
So I ain't paying. Sorry enda.. Ram it up your jacksie

shruikan2553

Don't worry about conserving water. If I'm paying a flat rate I'm gonna ****ing use it.

mynameismud

geeksauce wrote: »

Why would anyone want to pay a regular flat charge?

So householders should refuse to pay until they have a meter fitted which may not be until the end of 2016?

geeksauce wrote: »

I am delighted to be metered and to not be the ones without a meter in so far, at least I know my bills can be controlled by my usage. Imagine if I used 20,000 litres this year and my neighbour used 200,000 litres in the same time and we paid the same amount. Absolutely crazy situation to head down, meters are the best option for all.

Make sure your meter is installed at the correctly and that you are are the only property connected to it.From the Accommodation forum

Belfunk wrote: »

Op i had a similar problem, i was fairly sure long before the meter was installed that my neighbour was connected to our supply. To cut a long story short they admitted fault and removed the meter as there were two houses feeding off the one meter.

I had a word with the contractor installing the meters and they told me that one meter in Glasneivin had 7 houses feeding off it. When i questioned why the meter was installed i was told that it wasn't their job to find out who was feeding off the meter that was for Irish water to deal with. In the same conversation he pointed out another two houses on my road that were probably feeding off the one meter.

mynameismud

jobyrne30 wrote: »

(1) The double taxation - I'm not going to get my current taxes reduced
(

Reduce taxes yourself.I know I pay a lot less in taxes in this country than I did five years ago even after a 12% pay rise.

Banjo String

seamus wrote: »

Seems pretty clear to me
In other words, IW may share the customer's data in order "to verify and validate that customers are entitled to any relevant water allowances".

This is all very standard stuff, it's on every piece of paper you've ever put your name on in the last 15 years, including arguably more sensitive documents like loan applications .

Ok fair enough so. If they really want my Pps number, they can go fetch it from Revenue or my mortgage provider. Seeing as I've already prob granted them permission to hand it over to third parties too.

seamus wrote: »

This is scaremongering nonsense, scraping the bottom of the barrel to try and justify your own decision to screw over your neighbours.

Aaaaahhh..... divide and conquer.

Us and them........

_Kaiser_

geeksauce wrote: »

Nobody cares now if they leave a tap running all day, whereas from the 01st October they will care as they will be running money down the drain.

Those that use the most water should pay the most its a very simple concept and definitely promotes fairness across the board.

EXCEPT... it's nothing to do with "conservation" at all.

It was admitted pretty early on that if consumption did drop noticably, IW will up the rates accordingly to compensate. All your saving efforts will mean zilch if they just hike the bills to cover their "losses".

It's the same stunt they pulled with Motor Tax in 2008. Introduce a new system based on CO2 emissions that supposedly would encourage people to buy "greener" cars (we'll leave aside the real point of the exercise which was to prop up the Irish Motor trade).

So what happened when everyone went out and bought new BMW 520d's on the cheapest rates? Tax take fell of course! Result: They hiked the CO2 rates to compensate!

Conservation my ass! This simply another level of income tax under the guise of "fairness" and "equality"... what's worse is people are falling for it despite the huge holes in the proposal and unanswered questions a week away from the start of this scam.

Recondite49

jobyrne30 wrote: »

It's a private company by shares "Irish Water. Private Company Limited by Shares. Registered Office Colvill House, 24-26 Talbot Street, Dublin 1. Registered in Ireland. Registered No. 530363"

The state can sell it's shares at any time. The ombudsman expressed his concerns about them being unregulated - http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/people-cannot-make-complaints-to-ombudsman-about-irish-water-631914.html

I'm glad you picked up on this jo. This sort of thing happened in Ecuador where the government tried to sell off their shares, fortunately huge protests stopped them.

Mrs Garth Brooks

cookie24 wrote: »

I wonder how long it will take for IW to break-even, and start giving money to the government? The cost of installation must be massive, along with the consultancy fees, and the lovely gym they built themselves.

I'll say it once again....it should have been done like TV licence. No metering, just an annual bill. At minimum cost to the state.

Don't forget their lovely cars.

Banjo String

Interesting that they updated the site on the 19th.

Here is the article in full before its edit.

Irish Water | Uisce ÉireannSearch


Data Protection

In order for Irish Water to provide the Customer with Water Services, it is necessary for Irish Water to collect and use data, including personal public service numbers, relating to the Customer. This data is used mainly to manage and administer the Customer account and for operational reasons, including for example, visits to the Premises, works required at the Premises and construction and maintenance activities. In addition, data relating to the Customer may be used for health and safety, administration, risk assessment, marketing and credit checking purposes . Irish Water may use the data relating to the Customer to carry out credit checks and for fraud prevention with licensed agencies including the Department of Social Protection and fraud prevention agencies. This data may be recorded by these organisations to prevent fraud, help make credit decisions about the Customer and for debt collection purposes. Irish Water may keep the Customer's data for a reasonable period after the Customer ceases to be supplied with Water Services but will not keep it for any longer than is necessary and/or as required by law.

Irish Water may share the Customer's data with agents or third parties who act on behalf of Irish Water in connection with the activities referred to above. Such agents or third parties are only permitted to use the Customer's data as instructed by Irish Water. They are also required to keep the Customer's data safe and secure. The data that we collect from you may be transferred to, and stored at, a destination outside the European Economic Area ("EEA"). In the event that the data is stored outside of the EEA, Irish Water shall procure that all relevant laws are complied with to secure the data. It may also be processed by staff operating outside the EEA who works for us or for one of our suppliers. Such staff maybe engaged in, among other things, the processing of your request for information and the provision of support services. By submitting data to Irish Water, the Customer agrees to this transfer, storing or processing. Irish Water will take all steps reasonably necessary to ensure that your data is treated securely and in accordance with this Clause 19. 

Irish Water may disclose the Customer's data to third parties in the event that it sells or buys any business or assets, in which case it may disclose Customer data to the prospective seller or buyer or such business or assets; if Irish Water or substantially all of its assets are acquired by a third party, in which case Customer data held by it about its Customer will be one of the transferred assets. Irish Water may also disclose Customer data if it is under a duty to disclose or share Customer data in order to comply with any legal obligation, or in order to protect the rights, property, or safety of Irish Water, its customers or others. This includes exchanging information with other companies and organisations for the purposes of fraud protection and credit risk reduction. Irish Water will also disclose Customer data if it believes in good faith that it is required to disclose it in order to comply with any applicable law, a summons, a search warrant, a court or regulatory order, or other valid legal process. 

From time to time the Customer may speak to employees of Irish Water (or agents acting on its behalf) by telephone. To ensure that Irish Water provides a quality service, the telephone conversations may be recorded. Irish Water will treat the recorded information as confidential and will only use it for staff training/quality control purposes, confirming details of the conversations with Irish Water or any other purposes mentioned in this Clause 19.

The Customer has a right to ask for a copy of the Customer's data (Irish Water is entitled to charge a nominal administration fee for this) which is held by Irish Water about the Customer. If the Customer wishes to avail of this right, a request must be submitted in writing to: Irish Water, Data Protection Officer, PO Box 860, South City Delivery Office, Cork City. In order to protect the Customer's privacy, the Customer may also be asked to provide suitable proof of identification. If any of the Customer's details are incorrect the Customer is entitled to notify Irish Water to amend such details. Where the Customer has any queries in respect of Customer data it should contact Irish Water using the details provided in Clause 20.2.

If the Customer signs up for any of the Irish Water online services and Irish Water communicate with the Customer by email, the Customer is solely responsible for the security and integrity of the Customer's own email account. The Customer accepts that electronic mail passing over the Internet may not be free from interference by third parties. Consequently, while Irish Water will take all reasonable security measures, Irish Water cannot guarantee the privacy or confidentiality of information relating to the Customer when passing over the Internet. Unfortunately, the transmission of information via the internet is not completely secure. Although Irish Water will do its best to protect Customer data, it cannot guarantee the security of Customer data transmitted via the internet; any transmission is entirely at the Customer's own risk.

Marketing

Irish Water and/or authorised agents acting on behalf of Irish Water, may wish to contact the Customer by text message, email, post, landline or in person about water related with products or services which may be of interest to the Customer ("Marketing Purpose").

Notice one crucial piece of text that's gone AWOL anyone???

or buyer or such business or assets; if Irish Water or substantially all of its assets are acquired by a third party, in which case Customer data held by it about its Customer will be one of the transferred assets

Sounds like they fully intend to be sold off to be privatised tbh. Why did they remove and edit so much?

Of course government supporters will claim some of us are scaremongering and conspiracy theorists.

Sorry Irish Water, but there'll be no pps number from this house.

Splendour

Old boardie22 wrote: »

Sorry have to disagree totally... We shouldn't be paying for the very substance that there is more of than anything else on the planet.. This is just another shame to get money out of people and is actually all down to "U.N Agenda 21". Look up the PDF on line.. Total scam.. I for one will not be receiving any meter or paying for something that falls from the sky on a regular basis.. Want to buy into the lies, I mean reasons why it's coming in.. Be my guest.. It's illegal as illegal..
Firstly the water is flouridated (poison/carcinogen/toxic) which is a case of mass un-permissioned medication (just look up where it comes from/ industrial waste/ which is cheaper to dispose of in everybody's water under the ole blagg it's good for teeth and bones, totally to the contrary of nearly every study done into the stuff)
Also half of the country's water is foul mud coloured ****e that no **** but bacteria can live off...
So I ain't paying. Sorry enda.. Ram it up your jacksie

I sent the form back blank but wrote on it 'if someone could get in touch with me about what steps are being taken about taking the fluoride out of the water then maybe I'd fill out the form'.
Agree or not about fluoride being a health hazard,if we're paying we should be given the choice as to whether or not we want it added to our water.

Splendour

And fluoride or not, I'm still not providing them with my PPS number!

Akrasia

geeksauce wrote: »

Not talking about savings to the state, in fact the more water people use the better for the state. Water conservation deals with savings to the environment and would have a major effect on the environment, water is not an infinite resource and should be conserved.

Its not infinite but it is renewable

Recondite49

My apartment is rented i my gf's name. I advised her not to fill in the form - she believes they won't cut off the supply for non payment. One way to find out!

They have to take you to court to enforce payment - of course if they don't know your name that'll make things more difficult. Since I'm not a registered tenant I try not to worry but have assured her that if she's taken away in irons I'll bring her a cake in prison.

Putin

Akrasia wrote: »

Its not infinite but it is renewable

Pretty much infinite in The Republic of Rain Ireland though.

masonchat

are they not going to provide water to people with poor credit rating ??

seamus

Banjo String wrote: »

Ok fair enough so. If they really want my Pps number, they can go fetch it from Revenue or my mortgage provider. Seeing as I've already prob granted them permission to hand it over to third parties too.

You've pretty much just proven my point. They can't go to other bodies to fetch that information because the document(s) you've signed doesn't give them permission to share it with IW in the exact same way that IW can't share it with anyone else willy-nilly.

Seriously, you're scrambling to justify your reasons for not signing up to this but proving that your reasons are baseless and more to do with the fact that you just don't want to pay.

Aaaaahhh..... divide and conquer.

Us and them........

:rolleyes: Next you're going to claim I'm a government shill or a public sector worker. Change the record and engage in the discussion.

masonchat wrote: »

are they not going to provide water to people with poor credit rating ??

There is no credit rating system in Ireland and utility companies cannot access a person's credit history, so no, that will not be a factor.