***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Banjo String

seamus wrote: »

You've pretty much just proven my point. They can't go to other bodies to fetch that information because the document(s) you've signed doesn't give them permission to share it with IW in the exact same way that IW can't share it with anyone else willy-nilly.

No not at all. Irish Water are actively seeking pps numbers from tax payers that they then tell us they reserve the right to pass on as they see fit

I'm not proving any point you've made. You have basically said that I'd have signed loads of documents regarding my personal data (including my Pps number) over the last 15 years.

If that's the case, why don't IW (a semi state) private company ask Revenue to hand it over. Why try and dupe us

seamus wrote: »

Seriously, you're scrambling to justify your reasons for not signing up to this but proving that your reasons are baseless and more to do with the fact that you just don't want to pay.

With all due respect seamus, you know nothing about me, or how much I currently pay in vat returns, income tax, prsi, USC, rates and so on.

I don't feel I should pay again.

seamus wrote: »

:rolleyes: Next you're going to claim I'm a government shill or a public sector worker. Change the record and engage in the discussion.

Playing the man not the ball.
I don't think I've ever called anyone a shill or brought anyone's occupation into the debate, but way to go with the accusations.

You may quit with the changing of record slurs, because that says more about your credibility than mine tbh.

You can dismiss some of us all you like seamus, but Irish Waters true intentions have been clear for all to see.

Next you'll tell me that

Irish Water may disclose the Customer's data to third parties in the event that it sells or buys any business or assets, in which case it may disclose Customer data to the prospective seller or buyer or such business or assets; if Irish Water or substantially all of its assets are acquired by a third party, in which case Customer data held by it about its Customer will be one of the transferred assets.

This doesn't actually mean what it says.

Wonder why they've hastily removed that important fact from their page.

Ghost Buster

generalmental wrote: »

They won't just guess. This is one of the reasons they want your PPS numbers. If you live in property with 2adults and 2kids they will check the other properties in your area with same amount of people in them and they will charge you the average rate of what they use.. You should hope they don't like showeriin those properties.

That's guessing. I want to pay for my actual usage not an estimate, i harvest rain water. I have 4x 1000 litre tanks I use for about half of my consumption. This will not be reflected in a bill based upon my neighbours usage, that's wrong

seamus

Banjo String wrote: »

No not at all. Irish Water are actively seeking pps numbers from tax payers that they then tell us they reserve the right to pass on as they see fit

Read it again. It says in fact the exact opposite; they may only pass them on under very specific circumstances. Why are you deliberately ignoring that fact?

I'm not proving any point you've made. You have basically said that I'd have signed loads of documents regarding my personal data (including my Pps number) over the last 15 years.

...and your PPSN hasn't been shared. Exactly. Therefore, you sign this document and it still won't be shared.

If that's the case, why don't IW (a semi state) private company ask Revenue to hand it over. Why try and dupe us

So, what you would prefer is Revenue break the law and illegally share this information with an unauthorised 3rd party, rather than share it with IW who will not break the law and will only share it with authorised 3rd parties.

That makes no sense.

With all due respect seamus, you know nothing about me, or how much I currently pay in vat returns, income tax, prsi, USC, rates and so on.

I don't feel I should pay again.

So you're quite well aware that you pay tax every year then. You don't pay one year and say, "Grand, done now". You're not paying again, you're paying for it directly, rather than indirectly as you have done up until now.

You can dismiss some of us all you like seamus, but Irish Waters true intentions have been clear for all to see.

What true intentions would they be so?

Next you'll tell me that
This doesn't actually mean what it says.

Wonder why they've hastily removed that important fact from their page.

You'll have to ask them that. I see no issue with privatising it further down the line and I'm not going to try and convince anyone that it won't happen. It's worked out great for the consumer with gas and electricity. Why not the same with water?

Phoebas

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

EXCEPT... it's nothing to do with "conservation" at all.

It was admitted pretty early on that if consumption did drop noticably, IW will up the rates accordingly to compensate. All your saving efforts will mean zilch if they just hike the bills to cover their "losses".

Paragraph 1: You say it has nothing to do with conservation.
Paragraph 2: You concede that consumption may drop noticeably.

copey

This is a step too far

moxin

For unmetered customers when payments start in January, will they charge for a full year then? It doesn't say on their website.

cookie24

Phoebas wrote: »

Paragraph 1: You say it has nothing to do with conservation.
Paragraph 2: You concede that consumption may drop noticeably.

if it was got to do with conservation your bills would reduce in line with less consumption.

Southern Belle

Meter installed. How do I turn off my mains if needed now for installation of shower etc?

end of the road

geeksauce wrote: »

Water conservation deals with savings to the environment and would have a major effect on the environment

i don't really care. people having to pay out another charge they can't afford on something necessary as water and the hardship that will bring to many struggling families is much more important.

geeksauce wrote: »

water is not an infinite resource. and should be conserved.

it is exactly that. and it is conserved by most people. most people only use what they need to. the people leaving taps on during the winter do so for fear of the pipes freezing up, if there was a cost effective way of preventing them from freezing up people wouldn't leave the taps on. the water charges are about an extra tax and thats it.

Phoebas

cookie24 wrote: »

if it was got to do with conservation your bills would reduce in line with less consumption.

It has to do with conservation if water is conserved. Billing per unit is the tool that encourages conservation, not the output from conservation.

copey

What tax is next

Phoebas

Southern Belle wrote: »

Meter installed. How do I turn off my mains if needed now for installation of shower etc?

Same way you did it before the meter was installed.

Southern Belle

Phoebas wrote: »

Same way you did it before the meter was installed.

Can't see a valve, just a meter!?

dxhound2005

end of the road wrote: »

it is exactly that. and it is conserved by most people. most people only use what they need to. the people leaving taps on during the winter do so for fear of the pipes freezing up, if there was a cost effective way of preventing them from freezing up people wouldn't leave the taps on. the water charges are about an extra tax and thats it.

If water is conserved by most people how come we use more than everyone else in Europe? Could it be that they have to pay for it directly?

In the absence of domestic tariffs and meters, domestic water use is higher than in other European countries, with daily domestic consumption of water by customer at approximately 160 litres in Ireland.[1] This compares to 150 litres in the UK (where approximately 40% of households are metered), 121 litres in Germany and 114 litres in Denmark (all users are metered in both countries).[8] At 141m³ per inhabitant, Ireland has the third highest freshwater abstraction rate per inhabitant of 26 EU countries, ranked behind only Italy and Croatia.[9]

How do you know so much about other people's usage of water?

Mr McBoatface

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If water is conserved by most people how come we use more than everyone else in Europe? Could it be that they have to pay for it directly?

Could it be that the water network is a complete mess worse than any other European country in terms of leaks and water loss well before the customer gets it ? Could it be that the water network was allowed to fall apart while successive governments just kept on taking our taxes and not investing it in the water network ?

Phoebas

Southern Belle wrote: »

Can't see a valve, just a meter!?

Did IW remove a valve that was there previously?

Southern Belle

Phoebas wrote: »

Did IW remove a valve that was there previously?

That I don't know, but where I used to see the yokemebob to turn, I now see a meter. Just thought someone might no-don't want to go at it without an idea of what to do. That's all!

dxhound2005

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Could it be that the water network is a complete mess worse than any other European country in terms of leaks and water loss well before the customer gets it ? Could it be that the water network was allowed to fall apart while successive governments just kept on taking our taxes and not investing it in the water network ?

That is not my experience of the water network. In the 1970's there was water rationing every summer in Dundalk with no supply overnight during drought periods. This was because the town had grown and the reservoir infrastructure dating back one hundred years could not cope. So a very expensive scheme was developed to take water from Lough Muckno outside Castleblayney and we now have a perfect supply. All the new housing estates obviously have new piping and as far as I know it is not falling apart. Older piping probably needs to be replaced.

In addition a complete new waste water treatment plant for the town was built in the 1990's, again a very expensive and impressive feat of engineering. I know something similar has been done in Drogheda. Where did you get the information that the network is falling apart. And can you prove that the consumption figures I gave include leakages which occur before the supply reaches the taps?

I know all of this work was paid for in the time of no water charges. A lot of the money came from EU grants. But I would prefer in future if other people as well as the PAYE workers like me would contribute something to the cost of the services they get.

Farty88

I don't understand why we are going to pay water charges. Firstly the water isn't suitable for human consumption secondly our p.p.s number is all a scam to check your bank accounts. Thirdly people are streched enough due to other charges the government is thrown at us (The budget should be Fun).I could go on all night but I couldn't be bothered.all I'm gonna say is our government is a joke our made up charges are a joke lately of all our country is a joke. Europe is laughing at us and nobody is even bothered fighting back Irish freedom my **** no freedom here anymore we're all like caged rat's and getting more and more screwed every year

Mr McBoatface

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That is not my experience of the water network. In the 1970's there was water rationing every summer in Dundalk with no supply overnight during drought periods. This was because the town had grown and the reservoir infrastructure dating back one hundred years could not cope. So a very expensive scheme was developed to take water from Lough Muckno outside Castleblayney and we now have a perfect supply. All the new housing estates obviously have new piping and as far as I know it is not falling apart. Older piping probably needs to be replaced.

In addition a complete new waste water treatment plant for the town was built in the 1990's, again a very expensive and impressive feat of engineering. I know something similar has been done in Drogheda. Where did you get the information that the network is falling apart. And can you prove that the consumption figures I gave include leakages which occur before the supply reaches the taps?

I know all of this work was paid for in the time of no water charges. A lot of the money came from EU grants. But I would prefer in future if other people as well as the PAYE workers like me would contribute something to the cost of the services they get.

Good for you ....... in other news there are still large sections of water mains made from lead. In the town I'm currently living there are lead pipes in the old estates. The council which was meant to remove the lead piping from connection pipes that links the water mains on the street to the boundary peoples property never removed them. In council rented properties they where meant to remove all lead piping inside the boundary walls too, this did not happen in lots of places. Here is an example in Kildare , councils say they are no longer responsible, Irish water ......not our problem.

This has happened nationwide - here is an example of main pipe in Kerry

Lead and fluoride, a nice combination worth paying for

EDIT, More examples:- Limerick, 1 in 10 houses, Concerns raised in the Oireachtas. While the lead pipe feed inside the boundary of peoples houses is their responsibilities, the public main ruining under peoples gardens are Irish waters responsibility. The councils who where previously in charge knew damn well about these and the dangers they bring, they choose to do nothing. Councils and Corporations where meant to remove all lead piping from their rented stock well before Irish water came along. They didn't, they failed to maintain the water mains systems our taxes where paid for now many of the same folks have been moved into positions within Irish water.

As for proving the consumption figure included leakage, it's impossible to estimate and prove which is why I said "Could it be". But given the track record on things such a dangerous lead piping, it's safe to assume there is a high level of leaks also........you prove otherwise and while your at it can you prove your statement -

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If water is conserved by most people how come we use more than everyone else in Europe? Could it be that they have to pay for it directly?

shedweller

Thats laughable!
What a joke.

allthedoyles

Anyone know if its possible to set up a monthly direct debit starting end October .

Looking at the application form it looks like they want to take the full whack in one go at the end of January

Highflyer13

Farty88 wrote: »

I don't understand why we are going to pay water charges. Firstly the water isn't suitable for human consumption secondly our p.p.s number is all a scam to check your bank accounts. Thirdly people are streched enough due to other charges the government is thrown at us (The budget should be Fun).I could go on all night but I couldn't be bothered.all I'm gonna say is our government is a joke our made up charges are a joke lately of all our country is a joke. Europe is laughing at us and nobody is even bothered fighting back Irish freedom my **** no freedom here anymore we're all like caged rat's and getting more and more screwed every year

I find it hard to disagree with this. This budget is key for me. I am expecting some nice tax reductions in this budget with all the back slapping and noises from the coalition partners last week but I fear I am hoping for too much.

The Government lacks empathy with the people! Irish water lacks empathy with the people!! To deliver this obscene quango and bill families on the first week of 2015 when they are already struggling after Christmas demonstrates so. I just hope people have the guts to make a stand and not pay off this shower of chancers.

relax carry on

Farty88 wrote: »

secondly our p.p.s number is all a scam to check your bank accounts.

How are our PPS numbers going to be used by Irish Water to check our bank accounts and to what end?

allthedoyles

The head of Communications Irish Water said tonight on Prime Time that IW will be able to identify the difference between the ones that can pay , cannot pay , and won't pay .

Looks like a credit check to me .

Rips

allthedoyles wrote: »

The head of Communications Irish Water said tonight on Prime Time that IW will be able to identify the difference between the ones that can pay , cannot pay , and won't pay .

Looks like a credit check to me .

Ah no sure, its just so they can reduce your water pressure accordingly.

Half power if you genuinely can't pay ... and just a tiny trickle if you are a miserly anarchist.

Satriale

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If water is conserved by most people how come we use more than everyone else in Europe? Could it be that they have to pay for it directly?

In the absence of domestic tariffs and meters, domestic water use is higher than in other European countries, with daily domestic consumption of water by customer at approximately 160 litres in Ireland.[1] This compares to 150 litres in the UK (where approximately 40% of households are metered), 121 litres in Germany and 114 litres in Denmark (all users are metered in both countries).[8] At 141m³ per inhabitant, Ireland has the third highest freshwater abstraction rate per inhabitant of 26 EU countries, ranked behind only Italy and Croatia.[9]

How do you know so much about other people's usage of water?

IW documents say Irish people use 40000 litres PA or 111 litres per day.




http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/20-homes-using-as-much-water-as-town-of-9000-people-30585059.html

Of course these are the figures they were using with the CER to argue for lower allowances.
They wouldnt lie to anyone, would they?

tharmor

I heard if you dont pay they might stop your child benefit as well....

Banjo String

seamus wrote: »

Read it again. It says in fact the exact opposite; they may only pass them on under very specific circumstances. Why are you deliberately ignoring that fact?

The 'specific circumstances' being if they buy or sell any assets from or to another business.

My Pps number isn't an asset.

seamus wrote: »

...and your PPSN hasn't been shared. Exactly. Therefore, you sign this document and it still won't be shared.
So, what you would prefer is Revenue break the law and illegally share this information with an unauthorised 3rd party, rather than share it with IW who will not break the law and will only share it with authorised 3rd parties.

If I don't sign it won't be shared either.
Revenue dont ask permission to treat your personal data as an asset, why do Irish Water?

seamus wrote: »

That makes no sense.
So you're quite well aware that you pay tax every year then. You don't pay one year and say, "Grand, done now". You're not paying again, you're paying for it directly, rather than indirectly as you have done up until now.

What taxes have reduced inline with these charges? None? Will I get a rebate based on what I pay directly For? If not, I've paid twice.

seamus wrote: »

You'll have to ask them that.

Oh I asked them last week during a phone call. I may as well have been ordering a pizza tbh. The lady on the phone didn't have the foggiest as to either why they wanted pps numbers (she claimed they're so sensitive, even revenue / social wouldn't even cross reference due to privacy)or what they'd actually be used for. which makes me wonder what iw need them for if they can't check with revenue to be in with. Fine customer service IW.

seamus wrote: »

What true intentions would they be so? 

Well the fact they have in their own website,

“Please see below our updated Data Protection Notice that we are currently reviewing with the office of the Data Protection Commissioner”

jumped the gun? Why the sudden removal of the text that was there beforehand?

Irish Water may disclose the Customer's data to third parties in the event that it sells or buys any business or assets, in which case it may disclose Customer data to the prospective seller or buyer or such business or assets; if Irish Water or substantially all of its assets are acquired by a third party, in which case Customer data held by it about its Customer will be one of the transferred assets.

Looks like they didn't have permission and are now back-pedalling. (It's time the data Commissioner spoke out on this one way or the other.)
Shows they are busy trying to scare people into handing over their details.

seamus wrote: »

I see no issue with privatising it further down the line and I'm not going to try and convince anyone that it won't happen. It's worked out great for the consumer with gas and electricity. Why not the same with water?

Let's look at another privatisation instead. Anyone here buy shares in Telecom Eireann (now called Eircom)?

Since its privatisation, various asset stripping and reselling of the company has left our broadband and telephone line network one of the most underinvested in Europe.

We seem to love privatising public assets and socialising private losses in Ireland.

I don't get it.

geeksauce

end of the road wrote: »

i don't really care. people having to pay out another charge they can't afford on something necessary as water and the hardship that will bring to many struggling families is much more important.

No it isn't more important.

Plus 99% of the people that tell you they can't afford to pay for water are talking out their hole, I would be absolutely certain beyond any doubt that the people telling you they are broke and will be in no position to pay for water will have a Sky Subscription, will have iPhones, iPads, Broadband, will smoke and drink and have numerous other luxuries and will still claim they cant afford to pay for water.

As you said above water is necessary and will require some people to lose one of the luxuries they have such as sky or broadband, you know the non-essential items that many now believe are absolutely essential.

it is exactly that. and it is conserved by most people. most people only use what they need to. the people leaving taps on during the winter do so for fear of the pipes freezing up, if there was a cost effective way of preventing them from freezing up people wouldn't leave the taps on. the water charges are about an extra tax and thats it.

Yes the water charges are about money and nothing else as I have already stated, however as I have also stated already when people are being asked to pay for water they will waste an awful lot less of it so conservation will certainly be a knock on effect from the charges.

Most of the people I know and myself included have now got Water Butts connected to their downpipes and are using this water for Powerwashing and watering the garden etc. whereas before they would have simply connected the hose to the outdoor tap and blasted away with that, so conservation is already happening.