***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

cerastes

chasm wrote: »

They will be checking the PPS numbers that are provided with SW. That link states:
"PPS Numbers provided by you will be stored securely by
Irish Water and will be verified with the Department of
Social Protection to ensure your application is correct."

From what i have read there is 1 household allowance, regardless of the number of adults and then additional allowances for each child -once they are verified them with SW.

Yes, but why do they need to store and verify with the DSP at all? ok ensure that people dont cheat and say they have ten children when they have one or none.
Just let people apply for an account, say how many children and adults are there, measure the usage, give the "free" allowance.
They still say they have to check with the Dept Social Protection, so why do they need the details? all they need to ask the DSP is, are 2 adults and 3 children correct? Y/N?, and I dont mean some sap rings up and asks, surely it could be automated.

If there is only one 30k Litre allowance per household, then why do they need the PPS number of every adult? and what difference will it be if someone says there is 1 or 10 adults living there?
If its about accurately measuring water usage per person, adult and children, why not just say that, theres something underhand in the allowance for children that will come back to bite us, the allowance will be whittled away and they will still have the details, just put the number of people present and confirm the number with the DSP.

Or cut out all the bull and waste of time and just reduce the cost rate, fcuk it they havent even told us what the chargeable rate will be???

Bord gais doesnt need to confirm my application is correct and get the PPS of every man woman and child in the place, neither does Electric Ireland, or UPC or Sky, what fcuking do they actually want it for??? I more concerned about that than the bloody storage of it? sounds like a stick to beat you with in the future.

Cookie_Monster

cerastes wrote: »

Bord gais doesnt need to confirm my application is correct and get the PPS of every man woman and child in the place, neither does Electric Ireland, or UPC or Sky, what fcuking do they actually want it for??? I more concerned about that than the bloody storage of it? sounds like a stick to beat you with in the future.

BG / EI / UPC don't have a ridiculous free allowance of units of electricity / gas / internet to deal with though

bloopy

I don't like the idea of providing them with a pps number. I don't have to for any other utility and I wont for this one.
**** that.

Victor

slimjimmc wrote: »

Has a commencement order for the amendments been made yet? If not I presume it would be a quick and easy thing to do anyway.

Not required for the recent act, if you read the commencement section.

chasm wrote: »

The application guide that is being issued in September, and which is available to read on the IW website states:

"Each household (a residential property with at least one resident) is eligible for a free allowance of 30,000 litres of water supplied and 30,000 litres for wastewater every year. Only one household water services allowance is available per occupied property." http://www.water.ie/docs/Irish-Water-customer-application-guide_ENGLISH.pdf

So is our allowance 30,000 or 60,000 litres per year? Or is it 30,000 if you have water and waste and 30,000 if you have waste only?

30,000 litres per year of fresh water delivered and 30,000 litres per year of waste water removed.

cerastes wrote: »

Bord Gais doesnt need my PPS...

Bord Gáis Energy was sold off.

Bord Gáis Éireann (the company) / Bord Gáis Networks (a trading name) is now Ervia. http://www.bordgais.ie/corporate/index.jsp

Banjo String

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

BG / EI / UPC don't have a ridiculous free allowance of units of electricity / gas / internet to deal with though

None of which was paid for via income tax, vat, 'motor' tax up until now, so why would they be giving any 'free allowance' on gas/electric/internet?

Irish Water require pps numbers so they can deduct at source if you refuse to engage with them.


It has to be the only reason.

Seeing as disconnection isn't an option, and any attempt at pressure reduction can be quite easily reversed by anyone from the public pathway the meter will be installed on.

geeksauce

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Don't worry everyone. Turns out you don't need to give them any info after all!

They'll just guess instead and send you the bill!

Well to be honest I would rather they know who is my house and give me the allowances than make a guess at it. I am sure their guesses wont be on the lower side plus they will have the meter so will just charge for the consumption and not include any allowances, sure it'd be really clever to not return it and let a company looking to make a profit guess at what the bill will be. :rolleyes:

geeksauce

Banjo String wrote: »

None of which was paid for via income tax, vat, 'motor' tax up until now, so why would they be giving any 'free allowance' on gas/electric/internet?

Irish Water require pps numbers so they can deduct at source if you refuse to engage with them.


It has to be the only reason.

Seeing as disconnection isn't an option, and any attempt at pressure reduction can be quite easily reversed by anyone from the public pathway the meter will be installed on.

I am sure there will be some pretty strict fines and enforcement options available to IW for anyone that tampers with a meter, if they restrict it and consumption doesn't drop to a drip they will know the meter has been tampered with and only a complete and utter idiot would tamper with them.

Ogham

cerastes wrote: »

If there is only one 30k Litre allowance per household, then why do they need the PPS number of every adult? and what difference will it be if someone says there is 1 or 10 adults living there?

They are only asking for one adult PPS number (the one who is liable) - not all the adults. They are asking how many people live in the house and the PPS number of each child.

Most houses won't be metered when billing starts - and the unmetered water charge will be based on the number of adults in the house. Also it is proposed that all metered household water bills will be capped for the first 6 months at the "assessed charge" based on the number of adults in the household. That's why they need to know how many adults - but they have no way of checking this if they only ask for 1 adult PPS number!


The only reason I can see for collecting the "liable" adult PPS number is to try and stop people from claiming they live in more than 1 house. A vacant or holiday home property is going to be charged a flat rate (proposed at €160 annually) according to this - so someone could try and avoid that €160 charge by saying they lived there and get the 30,000l free allowance . Irish Water - I assume will be checking that no-one is claiming to be living at 2 properties by using the PPS number.

A couple could get around anyway I suppose -by one of them claiming liability for the main home and the other claiming liability for the holiday home.
(If a home is metered - Irish Water will soon be able to work out if it is occupied or not.)

If no one fills in the forms - Irish Water are going to assume 2 adults live there and no children - and charge €424 a year for unmetered homes. (No 30000l free allowance) . Irish Water propose that Metered homes that don't return a from will be charged €4.88 per 1000l - but no free allowance will be given.

Banjo String

geeksauce wrote: »

I am sure there will be some pretty strict fines and enforcement options available to IW for anyone that tampers with a meter, if they restrict it and consumption doesn't drop to a drip they will know the meter has been tampered with and only a complete and utter idiot would tamper with them.

Oh I agree. But it is a fact that they will be tampered with. Not necessarily by a homeowner though.

Proving who did tamper with a meter, not on your private property will be difficult though. I mean anyone could access them, what with them being on a public footpath and all.

Can't see iw installing CCTV s on each meter or road where meters are installed.

geeksauce

Banjo String wrote: »

Oh I agree. But it is a fact that they will be tampered with. Not necessarily by a homeowner though.

Proving who did tamper with a meter, not on your private property will be difficult though. I mean anyone could access them, what with them being on a public footpath and all.

Can't see iw installing CCTV s on each meter or road where meters are installed.

I seriously doubt a defence of 'sure I didn't tamper with it, must have been some random member of the public' will wash tbh, if it is your meter it is your responsibility to ensure it is not tampered with.

Caliden

If the allowance is per household, why do I need to give them my PPS number in the first place?

I'll give them my debit details but I don't want a utility company having my PPS number.

cerastes

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

BG / EI / UPC don't have a ridiculous free allowance of units of electricity / gas / internet to deal with though

Neither is it a basic requirement for life, l wont physically stop functioning if I dont have access to gas, electric or internet, although it might get very uncomfortable.
Why dont they just give a "free" allowance allocation for every house given that rates were removed and income tax increased for this when was that? 1978/9?
I much rather hey dont have access to my PPS, they havent proved themselves being capable of being above board
how IW was set up
havent released a charge rate
have already reduced the "free" allowance
All they need is to know how many adults/children are there, cross reference that with the DSP and get a yes/no answer if its correct and a correct figure, if it works out wrong let someone correct that with the DSP, IW doesnt actually need the details, in fact it would be much better if no organisation could hold them kind of deyails other than revenue and the DSP and have a system of confirming details related to someones PPSN with them by companies/organisations registered with them, rather than having multiple organisations with multiple systems repeated many times over each with their own vulnerabilities each holding your details.

Ogham wrote: »

They are only asking for one adult PPS number (the one who is liable) - not all the adults. They are asking how many people live in the house and the PPS number of each child.

Most houses won't be metered when billing starts - and the unmetered water charge will be based on the number of adults in the house. Also it is proposed that all metered household water bills will be capped for the first 6 months at the "assessed charge" based on the number of adults in the household. That's why they need to know how many adults - but they have no way of checking this if they only ask for 1 adult PPS number!


The only reason I can see for collecting the "liable" adult PPS number is to try and stop people from claiming they live in more than 1 house. A vacant or holiday home property is going to be charged a flat rate (proposed at €160 annually) according to this - so someone could try and avoid that €160 charge by saying they lived there and get the 30,000l free allowance . Irish Water - I assume will be checking that no-one is claiming to be living at 2 properties by using the PPS number.

A couple could get around anyway I suppose -by one of them claiming liability for the main home and the other claiming liability for the holiday home.
(If a home is metered - Irish Water will soon be able to work out if it is occupied or not.)

If no one fills in the forms - Irish Water are going to assume 2 adults live there and no children - and charge €424 a year for unmetered homes. (No 30000l free allowance) . Irish Water propose that Metered homes that don't return a from will be charged €4.88 per 1000l - but no free allowance will be given.

But as you say, there is a way around that with hoilday homes, and in that case some one could just pipe that property into a neighbours if possible and give them that "free" allowance, or just run off 30k litres into the drain, there will always be some way around things, not usually for the benefit of all, just work out so that IW can dip their hands in our pockets, this is a private company, right?

geeksauce wrote: »

I seriously doubt a defence of 'sure I didn't tamper with it, must have been some random member of the public' will wash tbh, if it is your meter it is your responsibility to ensure it is not tampered with.

Funny how its not our meter when it was being suggested we'd have to rent it, but if there are any problems its our meter?
So I now have to act as security and pay for any problems for a piece of equipment I rent off a private organisation which was set up in a smokey back room?

mikeym

I will not be giving them my PPS number because im not entitled to anything except a bill.

Ive heard the threats on the radio from Irish Water saying that if you dont tell them who you are you pay 50% more.

Im also looking forward to getting my first bill because it will only reinforce my opinion on the government and how its screwing working class families.

Banjo String

geeksauce wrote: »

I seriously doubt a defence of 'sure I didn't tamper with it, must have been some random member of the public' will wash tbh, if it is your meter it is your responsibility to ensure it is not tampered with .

Its not 'my meter'.

Yawns

They didn't bother to put meters into the apartments I live in. Each apartment is mains supplied and has it's own stop cock. It's not a massive building or anything. So I'm assuming I'll be on the higher rate, if anything already as no way of metering my use. If this is the case, I can surely just tell them to f off and not give my pps number.

Ogham

Yawns wrote: »

They didn't bother to put meters into the apartments I live in. Each apartment is mains supplied and has it's own stop cock. It's not a massive building or anything. So I'm assuming I'll be on the higher rate, if anything already as no way of metering my use. If this is the case, I can surely just tell them to f off and not give my pps number.

As I mentioned earlier - they are proposing to charge €424 a year for non repsonders without meters. The unmetered charge if you are single and reply with a PPS no. will be €176 a year. http://www.moneyguideireland.com/unmetered-water-charges-how-will-it-work.html

Banjo String

The application packs for free allowances are actually contracts asking you to agree to becoming an Irish Water customer, and to give Irish Water permission to start charging you for a utility you were already paying for in taxation

Phoebas

mikeym wrote: »

I will not be giving them my PPS number because im not entitled to anything except a bill.

Ive heard the threats on the radio from Irish Water saying that if you dont tell them who you are you pay 50% more.

Im also looking forward to getting my first bill because it will only reinforce my opinion on the government and how its screwing working class families.

It isn't mandatory to provide PPS numbers to IW. You only need to provide that information if you want to apply for a free allowance.
There is also no extra charge if you don't apply for the free allowance - you just don't get any free allowance if you don't want to fill in the form.

codie

Banjo String wrote: »

The application packs for free allowances are actually contracts asking you to agree to becoming an Irish Water customer, and to give Irish Water permission to start charging you for a utility you were already paying for in taxation

So when the water charges commence will there be tax cuts or will we be paying for water twice?

Fighting Irish

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Sure it was only six weeks ago.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Doesn't matter

circadian

How would a PPS number reflect an unmarried couple with children?

Would it still include all members of the household?

cerastes

Phoebas wrote: »

It isn't mandatory to provide PPS numbers to IW. You only need to provide that information if you want to apply for a free allowance.
There is also no extra charge if you don't apply for the free allowance - you just don't get any free allowance if you don't want to fill in the form.

No charge if you dont apply, nor do you need to provide them with your PPSN, yet if you dont, you get penalised??
So you arent obligated to give it to them, but if you dont, you suffer a penalty? for what???
the whole "free" allowance reeks.

I want to know why they want or need thee PPSN?
This idea its to administer the "free" allowance is a con, the allowance is a means to hold something over you to intimidate people into giving over these details voluntarily.

Is there some consumer or EU regulation against this?? penalising a person for witholding private personal information from a private company which they cant reasonably require.

sarkozy

codie wrote: »

So when the water charges commence will there be tax cuts or will we be paying for water twice?

This is precisely my issue. I think incentives for people to conserve water are necessary. But any system introduced to do that needs to be revenue neutral. So, yes, I want the Government to give me back the tax I already pay for our water services.

I'm lucky, I live in Dublin city, so water services have been pretty good. I am glad I don't live in Galway. Last year, people's beef was with Galway County Council because councils ran local water services. Problem fixed, right? Take water out of the hands of lazy, incompetent councils. But here's the thing. Galway CoCo had for years been pleading to the Department of the Environment to give it the money it needed to fix its water quality issues. You see, county councils are funded by motor tax, which is divvied out by the Department.

But now, the problem's magically gone away because Irish Water is in charge and they'll be 'leveraging' funding (i.e. charging us) to provide the resources to repair the nation's water system.

You mean the water system we thought we'd been paying for all along? The thing is, we have been paying for it all along. And now they want us to pay even more. Simple as.

Look, just fix the leaks, and then maybe we'll talk.

geeksauce

Banjo String wrote: »

Its not 'my meter'.

but it is, same as the ESB meter on the side of your house is yours.

Larbre34

sarkozy wrote: »

Look, just fix the leaks, and then maybe we'll talk.

Hear hear, this has been my issue too. Irish Water are making a big thing about being a Utility. You dont get charged by the ESB for live wires jumping about in your farmyard or by Bord Gais for natural gas seeping away into the earth or blowing people up.

Let them build out the network to a 21st century standard using investment finance from Europe then we'll see about charges and conservation. We've all been paying the money in tax that should have been used to repair a decrepit system for years.

And that PPS declaration? Its going in my shredder the day I receive it.

cerastes

Ogham wrote: »

As I mentioned earlier - they are proposing to charge €424 a year for non repsonders without meters. The unmetered charge if you are single and reply with a PPS no. will be €176 a year. http://www.moneyguideireland.com/unmetered-water-charges-how-will-it-work.html

From that link
"Irish Water have been monitoring water usage of some of the metered households with and without children in order to work out how much water the “average” child uses. The CER now say that it looks like the “normal” water consumption of a child is 21000 litres"

How do they know where there are children living or not, sounds a bit sinister, but seriously how could they know? they claim not to know this information and need it so we can "avail" of the "free" allowance.
How many of these houses with "average children" have they monitored? whats the sample size, sounds like a complete fabrication.

What the hell is an average child, different children of different ages would use different amounts of water, and how do they discern what the children are using from the rest of the people in the home??
maybe the family are out all day and use very little water.

How many people/houses has this study been done on? for how long? what time of the year? out of our population, whats a credible sample size to come up with accurate data?
I think they just made that up, along with the data.

cerastes

geeksauce wrote: »

but it is, same as the ESB meter on the side of your house is yours.

So it is mine? I was under the impression it had to be rented, so basically I can do what I want with my property.

sarkozy

Larbre34 wrote: »

Hear hear, this has been my issue too. Irish Water are making a big thing about being a Utility. You dont get charged by the ESB for live wires jumping about in your farmyard or by Bord Gais for natural gas seeping away into the earth or blowing people up.

Let them build out the network to a 21st century standard using investment finance from Europe then we'll see about charges and conservation. We've all been paying the money in tax that should have been used to repair a decrepit system for years.

And that PPS declaration? Its going in my shredder the day I receive it.

And isn't it a bit coincidental that the amount of central funding to local government that's been cut is the amount Irish Water hopes to take in - about €460m?

The thing is, this whole registration/contract scheme is about us helping them to do the maths. They have a figure in mind to charge us - it's €460m - and they want us to tell them how much to divide that by.

If you listen closely to IW's rhetoric, what they've said at Oireachtas committees, you'll see that their 'free' water allowance has nothing to do with what evidence says people reasonably require to live. It's all to do with matching up the cost of running the business with how many people are out there, and then they do the maths to arrive at the magic number.

Why should we help them? Hey, here's a crazy idea: work out what people actually use, what is considered 'essential' and 'optional' and then develop a pricing structure which starts with covering the cost of essential repairs to the system and only then goes on to charge 'excess' use. So put your meters in if you must, but don't charge anyone for at least two years until you actually have a bloody clue what people are actually using and what is actually being lost from the system due to a legacy of chronic government under-funding of our water systems and local governments.*

How do they know where there are children living or not, sounds a bit sinister, but seriously how could they know? they claim not to know this information and need it so we can "avail" of the "free" allowance.
How many of these houses with "average children" have they monitored? whats the sample size, sounds like a complete fabrication.

As the link above shows, IW's spokesperson would not answer the question about whether the 21,000 litres in their own documentation is the cap they want to see. They're totally fudging. I also think it's dodgy. As I say, it's to make their maths work. I mean, if the evidence tells us, as they say, that people use X, then why deny it? Or perhaps they're leaving it up to the politicians to pick a number that's palatable to their electorates?

As IW has been set up as a result of the Troika, I'd really like to know what was agreed, because I cannot see the Troika saying it should be implemented in this hamfisted way. Speaking of the Troika, the IMF has a terrible record in all this. IMF/World Bank loans in Bolívia led to the 'Water Wars' because, apparently, charging people who earn $1 a day for water would ensure that all Bolívians would harness their precious resource much efficiently with water charges therefore realising a stable revenue stream in order for more poor Bolívians to have access to high quality potable water going forward. And how could the poorest of the poor actually benefit from this? The charges were all about making Bechtel's maths work. Eventually, the water corporations were forced to leave.

Also, can someone tell me if water charges are going to be linked to individual and/or household incomes?

*The whole plan of moving water out of local government is to take this vital resource out of politics. 'Hey, water's no longer giver of life, it's a semi-state utility. You gotta problem, go to them, we politicians only created the mess, we're not responsible for fixing it!' We are destroying any semblance of accountability which so-called democracies exist upon.

Banjo String

geeksauce wrote: »

but it is, same as the ESB meter on the side of your house is yours.

Ok. So it's my meter. How would Irish Water prosecute me for touching/damaging/tampering with, My own meter

If you finally concede that it's Irish Waters meter, why should I keep an eye on it on their behalf?

fxotoole

cerastes wrote: »

this is a private company, right?

Wrong.

cerastes wrote: »

So I now have to act as security and pay for any problems for a piece of equipment I rent off a private organisation which was set up in a smokey back room?

It's not a private organisation. It's a semi state body.

cerastes wrote: »

penalising a person for witholding private personal information from a private company which they cant reasonably require.

Once again, it's not a private company.