Triathlon Ireland proposals going forward

Ceepo

Some interesting proposals up for discussion,

http://www.triathlonireland.com/assets/files/Events%20Proposals%202014.pdf

Some of thes might help with some of the concerns raised on here over the lst few week,
Some good ideas, weather they are all workable is another thing ?

ray o

Ceepo wrote: »

Some interesting proposals up for discussion,

http://www.triathlonireland.com/assets/files/Events%20Proposals%202014.pdf

Some of thes might help with some of the concerns raised on here over the lst few week,
Some good ideas, weather they are all workable is another thing ?

Looks like it would take a fair bit of organising to pull it all together but your right It does address some of the better suggestions that were raised on how to make racing here more interesting. A step in the right direction I think.

Tom__JNR

I hope it goes ahead! I guess I need to join a club now.

Shedite27

I'm guessing everyone in a club and TI member will be for these. Anyone who's not will be against them.

So if the goals (as they state) are the increase TI and club membership then they're perfect.

I'm a casual triathlete so doesn't suit me, it means I have to wait 4/5 days to enter races (how many really sell out that quick?) and I'll likely be in the last wave of races (despite being an above-average swimmer)

Huff n Puff

Ceepo wrote: »

Some interesting proposals up for discussion,

http://www.triathlonireland.com/assets/files/Events%20Proposals%202014.pdf

Some of thes might help with some of the concerns raised on here over the lst few week,
Some good ideas, weather they are all workable is another thing ?

Some very interesting ideas alright. After a quick scan through it all I would have to say thats it's a positive move. I would be in favour of most of it. Looks good on paper so hopefully that transfers to improved racing.

There is a lot of work involved and it will require clubs and individuals to buy into the idea and support it. That is where it might fall down. The average triathlete just doesn't give a toss about the development of the sport, especially at the top levels in this country.

Well done to everyone involved in creating that proposal. The fear, as always, is that this is just lip service.

tunney

Going to be an interesting software system to facilitate the online entries.

BTH

So, Tunney ain't impressed. I for one am shocked. (edit: stop deleting your posts Dave)

This document and the proposal to limit wave numbers to 100/150 is a positive step. Obviously it remains to be seen how this plays out in practice but the very fact that they know there is a problem and are trying to address it has not to be good news.

On the race entries thing, yes, this will probably mean all races need to use TIs entry system, and we all know how well that went in 2012 for HOTW, but myself Ceepo and Gibbo were only talking about this recently. I know of a few athletes who would have been competing for the podium who didn't get an entry to the sprint champs because it was sold out before anyone knew it opened for entry. This cheapens the whole race and the whole idea of it being a championship race. Surely the national champs race needs the best athletes in the country if the race is to mean anything. The document linked above looks like it will address that issue.

sconhome

About bloody time.

Huff n Puff

tunney wrote: »

Going to be an interesting software system to facilitate the online entries.

That could well be a problem alright. There is no doubt that there will be plenty of clubs and race organisers who see this as a huge nuisance and plenty of individuals that will see these changes as elitism. Change is difficult and to be honest I don't see things changing.

The one good thing TI have going for them is the importance of being a National Series race. Being an NS/NC race is often the difference between having a crowd and having no crowd. Races will want to be part of the new set-up, so TI hold all the cards really. If your race wants to be selected for this new series then put your race forward and jump through all the hoops TI put in front of you. If not then nobody is forcing you to. Do your own thing.

tunney

BTH wrote: »

So, Tunney ain't impressed. I for one am shocked. (edit: stop deleting your posts Dave)

I was trying to be positive and less argumentative.

BTH wrote: »

This document and the proposal to limit wave numbers to 100/150 is a positive step. Obviously it remains to be seen how this plays out in practice but the very fact that they know there is a problem and are trying to address it has not to be good news.

10 waves, 15 minutes apart. Thats the roads in use for around five hours. Could be difficult to swing

BTH wrote: »

On the race entries thing, yes, this will probably mean all races need to use TIs entry system, and we all know how well that went in 2012 for HOTW, but myself Ceepo and Gibbo were only talking about this recently. I know of a few athletes who would have been competing for the podium who didn't get an entry to the sprint champs because it was sold out before anyone knew it opened for entry. This cheapens the whole race and the whole idea of it being a championship race. Surely the national champs race needs the best athletes in the country if the race is to mean anything. The document linked above looks like it will address that issue.

Its a complex set of requirements and a bespoke entry system.

tunney

So the National Series would no longer be pointless?

The point of the National Series would be to place highly so you can enter the National Series more easily?

speedyj

Definitely good to see some work in progress. I think the Division 2 concept and preferential treatment given to those who fork out to race abroad is bollox, sorry I mean misguided :-)

tunney

Some questions:

"Athletes who have finished in top 8 in a National Series event in previous
2 years"

So this is making the DIV1 license effectively a 25-35 thing. Those other than prime won't place and therefore won't get licences.

"Wave start with best athletes in all National level events"

So all div one athletes will be the better athletes and will start in the same wave. So 150 athletes of roughly the same level will hit the bike at the same time in every NS race. Anyone see issues..........


"Athletes who have finished in top 16 overall in National Series in previous 2 years"

Struggling to make sense of this one. Is the NS an age group competition or not? If AG group top 16 then thats a huge number entitled to DIV1. IF not AG group top 16 then whats the point in the NS?

Division 2 :
"Athletes who have competed at age group level in ETU or ITU
championship events in previous 3 years "

Seems that div2 is there solely to feed the cash cow.


Just a few thoughts while waiting for Maven.

DaveR1

tunney wrote: »

Some questions:

"Wave start with best athletes in all National level events"

So all div one athletes will be the better athletes and will start in the same wave. So 150 athletes of roughly the same level will hit the bike at the same time in every NS race. Anyone see issues..........

Its either a RACE or not. If its a RACE then put the best people RACING eachother. This idea of age group waves destroys the racing aspect at the top level. Its a RACE so keep it like that.

tunney

DaveR1 wrote: »

Its either a RACE or not. If its a RACE then put the best people RACING eachother. This idea of age group waves destroys the racing aspect at the top level. Its a RACE so keep it like that.

Devils advocate : Its an Age Group event in an Age Group competition.

What I meant specifically was 150 athletes swimming roughly the same times, hitting the bike at roughly the same time, police the drafting on that.........

(EDIT: Do I have a solution? No no I do not. Why? One of the reasons being I do not think that the problem that is being address has been defined. )

speedyj

The mixing in of duathlon/aquathlon is confusing - I'd deal with them later and stay focused on tri for now. They're also contributing to the mass of divisions (7?). Simpler is better where possible - if we're going beyond 3 that's a warning flag for me To keep the number of sub-categories down in any one category we need Junior/Adult as the first divider.

What I'd like to get from the document is an easy to grasp of the proposed tiers in triathlon racing in Ireland. Is is elite/age-group elite/everyone else? It also might help to list and document them in reverse, i.e. in the order of most participants to least.

Included where applicable would be a statement of estimated numbers, e.g. we anticipate 50 age-group elite. This would help when evaluating qualifying criteria and how races for that tier would be organised.

An outline of what competitions are open to each tier would be nice.

There will probably be some entry criteria to any competition based on full membership/one day licence, for example full members would get first call on certain events such as a National Champs.

speedyj

DaveR1 wrote: »

Its either a RACE or not. If its a RACE then put the best people RACING eachother. This idea of age group waves destroys the racing aspect at the top level. Its a RACE so keep it like that.

We've a number of competing concerns, such as providing a real "race" both at the front and within the age groups, limiting the numbers of people on the road at a given time. It's kind of unsolvable without changing the problem definition somehow - I think the direction being taken is to extract some form of limited number age-group elite to form the most competitive race.

There will be issues with any system, for example what if someone from back the waves beats someone in the first wave? Answer might be that they're in a separate race and need to move up next year. We're going to have teething problems whatever happens..

Mr. Flibble

tunney wrote: »

Going to be an interesting software system to facilitate the online entries.

Mostly off topic, but as we're discussing the software system...

I've entered a couple of events this year and I'm amazed that any average joe actually manages to get entered into these races. The whole system is utterly confusing for the uninitiated. You are typically bounced around between a number of websites during registration process and often (always?) have to manually make a separate purchase of a 1 day license on the TI website, if you are not a TI member.

A little thought into the UX the entry purchase would go a long way.

Solution:

• Make it easy for event organizers to incorporate one day TI license purchase in the event entry on their website.
• Don't require people to make TI license purchases on the TI website.

triathlonireland.com wrote:

Strategic Aims: Increase participation in [...] membership in TI

The fact that the TI membership runs from Jan - Jan means that most newbies who aren't sure how many events they are going to enter and very unlikely to purchase a years membership anytime past April.

Solution:
Reduce registration cost each month accordingly
or
Have the membership run for 12 months after payment.

triathlonireland.com wrote:

Strategic Aims: Increase participation in Triathlon

Making a website design guide available to the people running the event would go a long way. The amount of event websites that don't clearly show the

• Time of the event
• Cost of entry
• Location of the event
• Event distances
• Registration closing time
• Sign on times and locations

on the website is crazy. And the number of sites that say "X is the same as last year's event" is quite frustrating.
It's not easy to put yourself in the shoes of a visitor when creating a website, but I think it's worth making event organisers aware that there may be issues with theirs.

sconhome

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Mostly off topic, but as we're discussing the software system...

I've entered a couple of events this year and I'm amazed that any average joe actually manages to get entered into these races. The whole system is utterly confusing for the uninitiated. You are typically bounced around between a number of websites during registration process and often (always?) have to manually make a separate purchase of a 1 day license on the TI website, if you are not a TI member.

A little thought into the UX the entry purchase would go a long way.

Solution:

• Make it easy for event organizers to incorporate one day TI license purchase in the event entry on their website.
• Don't require people to make TI license purchases on the TI website.

The fact that the TI membership runs from Jan - Jan means that most newbies who aren't sure how many events they are going to enter and very unlikely to purchase a years membership anytime past April.

Solution:
Reduce registration cost each month accordingly
or
Have the membership run for 12 months after payment.



Making a website design guide available to the people running the event would go a long way. The amount of event websites that don't clearly show the

• Time of the event
• Cost of entry
• Location of the event
• Event distances
• Registration closing time
• Sign on times and locations

on the website is crazy. And the number of sites that say "X is the same as last year's event" is quite frustrating.
It's not easy to put yourself in the shoes of a visitor when creating a website, but I think it's worth making event organisers aware that there may be issues with theirs.

Lots of issues raised in your points.

Far easier for all TI sanctioned events to have their entry via TI site, they are the governing body and license issuer. Event promotion websites would each have to have SSL cert, payment gateways etc and to be honest if entering 7 / 8 races per year I would prefer to trust one permanent website rather than having to trust somethign thrown up for an annual event.

Almost every other sport goes Jan to Dec so should TI. Imagine having to police what is valid or not valid at race registration? Current system of '2014' and a colour is easy to identify as valid or in-valid.

It is up to the individual to decide the economics of ODL or not.

I like what the proposal addresses (think there's been blogs about it before) is a tiered approach for those serious about their sport and others who are doing it to participate.

Good point by Tunney earlier about elite wave leading to ITU style bunching as 150 come out together. That brings the top tier very close to ITU draft legal option racing on the domestic scene and an amateur/pro or semi-pro approach to racing. Could get messy.

Age group waves is the right way to go for all other levels. If I start in a wave with all my fellow oldies I know who I am racing (for points & places). Sure roads will be congested by the time we get out there (unless age before beauty) but the stronger oldAGers won't be worried about drafting as they hoover up weaker younglings

I support the proposals.

P2C

Division 1-

I presume TI are trying to create a elite license that can compete in draft legal races . The GAP is narrowing between the top level age groupers (Swim) and the TI development athletes such as Aaron, Con, Chris, Jackson and a host of upincoming juniors/ 20-24 that are beginning to make a break through.

I presume they are trying to get these lads/ladies racing the top age groupers in ITU draft legal racing for exposure and experience. Similar to British super series. The only exposure for these kids is maybe once a year international race if they are selected. The cost of bringing squads is prohibitive. These kids really need to be exposed to draft legal racing for the development of our future heroes.

If you put the top juniors, development athletes, seniors and maybe the top 50 age groupers into a category called division 1 and have some draft legal racing it would be interesting. I reckon the gap would close further between age groupers and the fish in swimming. It would sort out the top end drafting continuous debate. I have no doubt their are some age groupers who will be well able to challenge. Maybe not our top end elites but defo the juniors and developing athletes.

mossym

not had time to go through it in detail, but

One very surprising fact around the National Series 2013 was that whilst 4084
competed in these events only 325 actually did 5 events – whether these actually
met the criteria of 2 sprint, 2 standard and another has not been analysed.

so the awards(probably not an issue)and final rankings for last year were given out and they've no idea if those people should even have been considered?

entry to divisions is then going to be based on a ranking that no-one has checked is actually valid?not a great start

not a big deal probably, but seems very odd.

secondly, would seem division 2 is nothing more than an effort to drive more people to pay to represent TI at the eu and world champs. never looked into it, but doesn't appear this is a hugely attractive option for most so this just an effort to make more people apply?not sure what else it does


division 3. might be quite a few people signing up for clubs who normally wouldn't. not sure why they differentiate between club and non club members.

Mr. Flibble

AKW wrote: »

Far easier for all TI sanctioned events to have their entry via TI site, they are the governing body and license issuer. Event promotion websites would each have to have SSL cert, payment gateways etc and to be honest if entering 7 / 8 races per year I would prefer to trust one permanent website rather than having to trust somethign thrown up for an annual event.

To have the complete event registration via the TI website would be a good option too, but that's not what's happening in many cases.

For example, registering for shadowman recently. The main website is at http://shadow-man.com/
I click on the register link there and am bounced to
http://www.entrysystem.se/Event/shadowman2014/Register
where payment for the event is made.

I'm given a link there to the TI website that you need to follow to purchase a 1-day TI license (along with re-entering your information).

I've been on three websites now to enter one event.

Perhaps it could be made mandatory for any event making use of TI membership to have the full registration process via the TI website to solve this issue.

AKW wrote: »

Almost every other sport goes Jan to Dec so should TI. Imagine having to police what is valid or not valid at race registration? Current system of '2014' and a colour is easy to identify as valid or in-valid.

I haven't see the current licence documentation (due to aforementioned issue) but a large
VALID UNTIL END OCT '15 printed on the cover might do the trick. If they are currently only looking at the document colour then one may as well share one license between a couple of friends.

AKW wrote: »

It is up to the individual to decide the economics of ODL or not.

It is. I'm just saying it seems that with the current system the individual may opt against full membership when deciding on the economics, and I gathered from the document that the strategic aims were to increase membership. I don't know how membership is measured though. If it's by way of €takings (which is totally fine!) then promoting ODLs and making yearly membership appear unattractive may be the best approach to achieve this.

My stance in general is that anything that adds decisions to the customer's experience is a bad thing. Taking into account the month of membership purchase is just one more decision on top of the rest.

tunney

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Perhaps it could be made mandatory for any event making use of TI membership to have the full registration process via the TI website to solve this issue.

Issue with this is the credit card processing company that TI uses *may* charge more that the ones that clubs may use. Throw in a slice of the action for TI and it could be a few percentage in the difference between a home grown solution and the TI one [1]


[1] Not based on any facts, just speculation

joey100

secondly, would seem division 2 is nothing more than an effort to drive more people to pay to represent TI at the eu and world champs. never looked into it, but doesn't appear this is a hugely attractive option for most so this just an effort to make more people apply?not sure what else it does

I agree with Mossy and This is the biggest problem with it that I can see. They seem to say that some races may be restricted to division1 and 2 athletes. Division 1 I have no problem with, people got there on merit and hard work. Division 2 Athletes, in some cases, will be people who were able to afford to go race age group. There has never been a 'real' qualifying standard for this so why do these people suddenly get automatic entry to this division??

Overall I think it looks good, and if implemented well could be an overall positive thing. It's the division 2 thing I wouldn't agree with.

Mr. Flibble

tunney wrote: »

Issue with this is the credit card processing company that TI uses *may* charge more that the ones that clubs may use. Throw in a slice of the action for TI and it could be a few percentage in the difference between a home grown solution and the TI one [1]


[1] Not based on any facts, just speculation

That seems like reasonable speculation. They could still make it mandatory despite that. This would help them reduce their processing charges as their volume would increase, TI's extra slice of the action would help them be a "financially secure organisation" (key objective #1 according to their key objectives flyer) and it would simplify registration for competitors.

EC1000

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

I haven't see the current licence documentation (due to aforementioned issue) but a large
VALID UNTIL END OCT '15 printed on the cover might do the trick. If they are currently only looking at the document colour then one may as well share one license between a couple of friends.

Sharing of cards not possible as barcodes are scanned at all NS events - or at least they are supposed to be anyway.... Also, points are assigned to a licence number as opposed to a name.

Mr. Flibble

EC1000 wrote: »

Sharing of cards not possible as barcodes are scanned at all NS events - or at least they are supposed to be anyway.... Also, points are assigned to a licence number as opposed to a name.

OK, great - so if it's computerised there is no issue in policing out a more granular expiry date.

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Issue with this is the credit card processing company that TI uses *may* charge more that the ones that clubs may use. Throw in a slice of the action for TI and it could be a few percentage in the difference between a home grown solution and the TI one [1]


[1] Not based on any facts, just speculation

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

That seems like reasonable speculation. They could still make it mandatory despite that. This would help them reduce their processing charges as their volume would increase, TI's extra slice of the action would help them be a "financially secure organisation" (key objective #1 according to their key objectives flyer) and it would simplify registration for competitors.

I know from previous involvement in race organisation that this is indeed the case. There is a premium charged by TI for processing the payments, it comes out of the club cut of the entry fee.

The balancing equation is the cost of either 3-5% Paypal fees per transaction or the cost of an SSL cert ~€120 + merchant gateway + web design time and labour for a once off annual event or paying a premium to TI for them having the headaches.

I'd vote TI all the way on this one for peace of mind. The last thing an event organiser would fancy is a CC breach or issue.

Shadowman et al are commercial events outside of the club structure so they are TI sanctioned (fee payable) for license but quite right to process their own payments.

tunney

AKW wrote: »

I know from previous involvement in race organisation that this is indeed the case. There is a premium charged by TI for processing the payments, it comes out of the club cut of the entry fee.

The balancing equation is the cost of either 3-5% Paypal fees per transaction or the cost of an SSL cert ~€120 + merchant gateway + web design time and labour for a once off annual event or paying a premium to TI for them having the headaches.

I'd vote TI all the way on this one for peace of mind. The last thing an event organiser would fancy is a CC breach or issue.

Shadowman et al are commercial events outside of the club structure so they are TI sanctioned (fee payable) for license but quite right to process their own payments.

The *key* piece of information is the premium paid to TI.

EC1000

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

OK, great - so if it's computerised there is no issue in policing out a more granular expiry date.

I think you are trying to come up with a solution for a problem that IMO does not exist. Why is June to June better than Jan to Jan? It's immaterial to the thread in any event........

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

The *key* piece of information is the premium paid to TI.

From TI race organiser pack (on TI website)

·

5% admin charge on total race entries – This is the lowest in the market.
· All race entry fees will be transferred to you prior to the event. – There will be a monthly transfer of money to the race organiser with this becoming more regular as the event draws closer.
· Reduced work load for event organiser as TI can deal with refunds where money is held by TI.
· Race organiser can easily identify TI members and those that require an ODL.

When you consider that most merchant services are charging ~2-2.5% for online transactions and Paypal 3-5% the cut to TI is not unreasonable