Triathlon Ireland proposals going forward

Mr. Flibble

EC1000 wrote: »

I think you are trying to come up with a solution for a problem that IMO does not exist. Why is June to June better than Jan to Jan? It's immaterial to the thread in any event........

The problem, as I saw it, is that not as many people as desired were buying the full license. The reason that I (and therefore likely many others) did not buy a full license is the perceived lack of value purchasing late in the year as the license would be valid for a shorter period than had I purchased in January. I would have bought the license had it lasted for a full year as opposed to only, say, 6 months.

June to June would be no better than Jan to Jan if that was a solid period for all licenses. I was proposing that June to June be the period if the license was purchased in June. And Jan to Jan be the period if purchased in Jan, etc.

But I agree that this may not actually be a problem as TI make more money if people purchase many ODLs opposed to a single yearly license, and that is possible preferable for them.

tunney

Lets be honest the presence of the DIV2 really says what this is all about.

BTH

EC1000 wrote: »

I think you are trying to come up with a solution for a problem that IMO does not exist. Why is June to June better than Jan to Jan? It's immaterial to the thread in any event........

To put this off topic item to bed, TI are clearly trying to promote club membership among its own membership. TI membership is required in order to take part in club sessions, and if you join TI in October-December your membership is valid until the following December, meaning people can join a club and begin training with them at the start of winter training without having to pay for the remainder of the current calender year and again in the new year.

Therefore the memberhsip format will not change, and I see no good reason to change it. The only thing I can possibly suggest is making it easier to find out about and compare the different costs between the two levels of membership and ODL on the TI website. I know I looked for it about a year ago and couldn't find it for ages.

sconhome

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

But I agree that this may not actually be a problem as TI make more money if people purchase many ODLs opposed to a single yearly license, and that is possible preferable for them.

Personally I think you are looking at this the wrong way. It's not all a money making racket

ODL is hardly the preferred system as it will tie up resources processing , printing and posting cards during what is often a busy season. It is a great system for anyone who wants to do one or two events.

You can buy your annual card from November and it arrives in the post in January for the coming season. TI needless to say organisationally are quieter in the winter months so it would be favourable for them to deal with all the event admin at this time of year.

I see your point though, maybe they could do a half year from June to Jan for anyone who tries with a ODL and loves the sport, that would be a solid move.

rainbow kirby

AKW wrote: »

ODL is hardly the preferred system as it will tie up resources processing , printing and posting cards during what is often a busy season. It is a great system for anyone who wants to do one or two events.

You can buy your annual card from November and it arrives in the post in January for the coming season. TI needless to say organisationally are quieter in the winter months so it would be favourable for them to deal with all the event admin at this time of year.

I see your point though, maybe they could do a half year from June to Jan for anyone who tries with a ODL and loves the sport, that would be a solid move.

The licence thing goes pretty much the other way here - a lot of races include the cost of a one-day license and a refund is made at registration to those who present a BTF license. Not sure which works better really...

Mr. Flibble

AKW wrote: »

Personally I think you are looking at this the wrong way. It's not all a money making racket.

I didn't mean to suggest it was a racket. Apologies to TI if my posts came across that way. I was trying to say that I don't have an issue if they make decisions that increase their revenue. That's their business, not mine.

I only thought that a simple way to increase full membership uptake would be to remove the disincentive of purchasing licenses later in the year.

HI2002

The only way to improve the top level (ELITE level) is to race abroad, otherwise all you have is the big fish in a goldfish bowl syndrome.

Tell me, what is the point in having the proposed Level 1 license just because you are able beat all around you througout the whole of the island of Ireland yet when you go abroad you get creamed by the UK and other European countries with genuinely ELITE athletes??? If they are that good (these proposed Level 1 License holders), wouldnt they be carded? If these "Elites" are considered that good - and not just good Age Grouper athletes - then they should be specifically targeted and carded (forget having a special Level 1 License for them becuase they don't need it) .... races should be picked for them abroad - TI should support them to improve their standard by supporting this as an initiative. I think there is an unrealistic view of how good our Elites are (goldfish bowel syndrome), some wishful thinking (I too would love to see Ireland win a gold medal in Rio or indeed anywhere), all being confused with the development of the sport. I'm not sure that these proposed changes will be good for our sport, bearing in mind that it is the majorty - the lower end of the Age Group athletes who at the end of the day are filling in the other side of the gap for TI funding.

peter kern

but even to go abroad you have to practise at home to be prepared for the next level. Would you not think so ? I do howerve agree that it would be better to run this series in conjunction with Uk races so they come over to 1 or 2 races.
I thinkthe term elite should call it devleopment license as it will mainly benefit the juniors and older people looking into Itu racing or more like in cycling where an a1 cyclist is the level bellow a pro.

BTw dont forget that irelands best ever triathlete Aillen Morrison started as an age group athlete and so did Conner Murphy and Bryan keane ( who did those develoment races when living aboad in australia for a year) .... just saying

HI2002 wrote: »

The only way to improve the top level (ELITE level) is to race abroad, otherwise all you have is the big fish in a goldfish bowl syndrome.

Tell me, what is the point in having the proposed Level 1 license just because you are able beat all around you througout the whole of the island of Ireland yet when you go abroad you get creamed by the UK and other European countries with genuinely ELITE athletes??? If they are that good (these proposed Level 1 License holders), wouldnt they be carded? If these "Elites" are considered that good - and not just good Age Grouper athletes - then they should be specifically targeted and carded (forget having a special Level 1 License for them becuase they don't need it) .... races should be picked for them abroad - TI should support them to improve their standard by supporting this as an initiative. I think there is an unrealistic view of how good our Elites are (goldfish bowel syndrome), some wishful thinking (I too would love to see Ireland win a gold medal in Rio or indeed anywhere), all being confused with the development of the sport. I'm not sure that these proposed changes will be good for our sport, bearing in mind that it is the majorty - the lower end of the Age Group athletes who at the end of the day are filling in the other side of the gap for TI funding.

Huff n Puff

HI2002 wrote: »

The only way to improve the top level (ELITE level) is to race abroad, otherwise all you have is the big fish in a goldfish bowl syndrome.

Tell me, what is the point in having the proposed Level 1 license just because you are able beat all around you througout the whole of the island of Ireland yet when you go abroad you get creamed by the UK and other European countries with genuinely ELITE athletes??? If they are that good (these proposed Level 1 License holders), wouldnt they be carded? If these "Elites" are considered that good - and not just good Age Grouper athletes - then they should be specifically targeted and carded (forget having a special Level 1 License for them becuase they don't need it) .... races should be picked for them abroad - TI should support them to improve their standard by supporting this as an initiative. I think there is an unrealistic view of how good our Elites are (goldfish bowel syndrome), some wishful thinking (I too would love to see Ireland win a gold medal in Rio or indeed anywhere), all being confused with the development of the sport. I'm not sure that these proposed changes will be good for our sport, bearing in mind that it is the majorty - the lower end of the Age Group athletes who at the end of the day are filling in the other side of the gap for TI funding.

Darn it. You have us all sussed out. I always wanted to be the big fish in the small pond. There can be no other reason for wanting to develop triathlon on this island.

Racing abroad is a very important step in the development of top elite triathletes in this country. That however, does not mean that we should neglect the development of the sport on this island. They are not mutually exclusive ideas. We need to put in place stepping stones for those looking to progress on to racing abroad. If we make the system in Ireland better and raise the standards here then it will be easier to make the final step to racing abroad.

I don't have an unrealistic view of how good our elites are and resent the goldfish bowl accusation. I know exactly what the limitations are. I have a realistic view of how good our top domestic triathletes could be. Its all about raising standards here.

It's not all about racing abroad anyway. You seem to have this mind set where if you are not good enough to race abroad then you should be just happy with your lot back here on this 'goldfish bowl'. I presume you have a problem with categorised cycling races too? Why bother with A1, A2, A3 and A4 races? Sure just lump all the racing cyclists in with the leisure cyclists and have a free for all - sure if you are not racing on the continent then there is no point having this A1 category and then suffering from this 'goldfish bowl syndrome'.

Like it or not, there is a domestic race scene on this goldfish bowl. The choice is to either make this as strong as possible or do nothing. Anything that helps develop the sport on this island so as to make it more competitive should be applauded. You would swear our talented crop of juniors don't race every week on this island - they do - would it not be better if they faced a better class of racer? Would that not prepare them a little better and get them to train a little harder?

P2C

HI2002 wrote: »

The only way to improve the top level (ELITE level) is to race abroad, otherwise all you have is the big fish in a goldfish bowl syndrome.


If you look at the small numbers of Irish athletes racing internationally at the . It is more to do with finances and cost of sending athletes to races. Its very expensive. Therefore, the policy will be to send the very best. Leaving the rest at home to race non drafting races and eventually leave the sport.

Look at the recent class of Juniors - Sexton, Doherty, O Brien, O Riley, Jackson, Spears and the host of new juniors and youth athletes on the rise. How many of them are being sent to international races on a regular basis. These lads need to get exposure to draft legal racing for their development locally before sending them to international races. How many Irish Triathletes are carded at the moment. (Aileen, Bryan & Ben)

They should have to qualify by rising to the top. If they are exposed to the environment that they are expected to compete in regularly you would expect them to improve.

Look at Colin Bolger last year. A decent age grouper who went across the pond and figured he could compete in the British super series. He might not have won but he was still able to compete. There are a decent pack of age group athletes that can swim withing 30-45 secs of the top Juniors.

In 2014 I have seen Sexton and Bjorn Ludick doing the same. No disrespect to Bjorn although a fine triathlete but their are at least 20 age groupers of a higher standard.

If you bring together the top Juniors, Youth athletes, Development athletes and the top 20-30 age groupers together for a super series. You will aid in the development of these athletes across the board. The best then should go to the next level ETU and hopefully a few breach the top level

tunney

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Darn it. You have us all sussed out. I always wanted to be the big fish in the small pond. There can be no other reason for wanting to develop triathlon on this island.

Racing abroad is a very important step in the development of top elite triathletes in this country. That however, does not mean that we should neglect the development of the sport on this island. They are not mutually exclusive ideas. We need to put in place stepping stones for those looking to progress on to racing abroad. If we make the system in Ireland better and raise the standards here then it will be easier to make the final step to racing abroad.

I don't have an unrealistic view of how good our elites are and resent the goldfish bowl accusation. I know exactly what the limitations are. I have a realistic view of how good our top domestic triathletes could be. Its all about raising standards here.

It's not all about racing abroad anyway. You seem to have this mind set where if you are not good enough to race abroad then you should be just happy with your lot back here on this 'goldfish bowl'. I presume you have a problem with categorised cycling races too? Why bother with A1, A2, A3 and A4 races? Sure just lump all the racing cyclists in with the leisure cyclists and have a free for all - sure if you are not racing on the continent then there is no point having this A1 category and then suffering from this 'goldfish bowl syndrome'.

Like it or not, there is a domestic race scene on this goldfish bowl. The choice is to either make this as strong as possible or do nothing. Anything that helps develop the sport on this island so as to make it more competitive should be applauded. You would swear our talented crop of juniors don't race every week on this island - they do - would it not be better if they faced a better class of racer? Would that not prepare them a little better and get them to train a little harder?

We all like the cycling licensing system, its simple and elegant, motivating and functional. But we are triathletes so lets go with something so much more complicated.

You may not suffer from goldfish bowl syndrome (and I doubt that as you are well known to be arrogant and elitist) but lots do. Lots do.

Solobally8

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Darn it. You have us all sussed out. I always wanted to be the big fish in the small pond.

Sorry to point this out to you Shane, you will never be a big fish

peter kern

We all like the cycling licensing system, its simple and elegant, motivating and functional. But we are triathletes so lets go with something so much more complicated.

triathletes like complicated ;-)
but you are quite right and i think even a b c would be enough.

Huff n Puff

tunney wrote: »

You may not suffer from goldfish bowl syndrome (and I doubt that as you are well known to be arrogant and elitist) but lots do. Lots do.

Plenty of people do alright, but lots more are as down to earth as you will find in any sport. But again, just because a few people let these things go to their head it doesn't mean that we abandon the development of triathlon in Ireland. You will always get delusional people.

Solobally8 wrote: »

Sorry to point this out to you Shane, you will never be a big fish

That's actually quite funny. Who would have though that you were a comedian?! I am due my growth spurt any day now.

tunney

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Plenty of people do alright, but lots more are as down to earth as you will find in any sport. But again, just because a few people let these things go to their head it doesn't mean that we abandon the development of triathlon in Ireland. You will always get delusional people.

Emmm I got my threads mixed up, this is not the drafting thread.

Huff n Puff wrote: »

That's actually quite funny. Who would have though that you were a comedian?! I am due my growth spurt any day now.

So it is true that you are related to jackyback?

ShineyShiney

I like the idea of regionalising the race calendar, makes more sense than the 150km rule. It would also give a lot more input to clubs in the structure of the "local" race calender.

i would also suggest mandatory TI entry system for sanctioned races. The system may need a few tweaks but its not bad.

I dislike the division idea, It may solve the problem of head to head racing for the more competitive but it seems like a lot of change for a minor problem. How many races in this country are big enough to have this problem and couldn't nearly anyone on here look at the entry list for most and pick the contenders at little more than a glance and create an elite wave.

peter kern

btw pretty big fish in the aquathon last night ;-) A 15.2x swimmer for 1500 meter beats javier gomez s 1500 m time by a good bit ;-) . The big fish are out there in ireland and need a platform to get started.

HI2002 wrote: »

The only way to improve the top level (ELITE level) is to race abroad, otherwise all you have is the big fish in a goldfish bowl syndrome.

Tell me, what is the point in having the proposed Level 1 license just because you are able beat all around you througout the whole of the island of Ireland yet when you go abroad you get creamed by the UK and other European countries with genuinely ELITE athletes??? If they are that good (these proposed Level 1 License holders), wouldnt they be carded? If these "Elites" are considered that good - and not just good Age Grouper athletes - then they should be specifically targeted and carded (forget having a special Level 1 License for them becuase they don't need it) .... races should be picked for them abroad - TI should support them to improve their standard by supporting this as an initiative. I think there is an unrealistic view of how good our Elites are (goldfish bowel syndrome), some wishful thinking (I too would love to see Ireland win a gold medal in Rio or indeed anywhere), all being confused with the development of the sport. I'm not sure that these proposed changes will be good for our sport, bearing in mind that it is the majorty - the lower end of the Age Group athletes who at the end of the day are filling in the other side of the gap for TI funding.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

btw pretty big fish in the aquathon last night ;-) A 15.2x swimmer for 1500 meter beats javier gomez s 1500 m time by a good bit ;-) . The big fish are out there in ireland and need a platform to get started.

Was it an accurate course? I know some clubs (ie that one) previously deliberately shortened their races to make them the fastest in Ireland.

argolis

Mr. Flibble wrote: »

Mostly off topic, but as we're discussing the software system...

I've entered a couple of events this year and I'm amazed that any average joe actually manages to get entered into these races. The whole system is utterly confusing for the uninitiated. You are typically bounced around between a number of websites during registration process and often (always?) have to manually make a separate purchase of a 1 day license on the TI website, if you are not a TI member.

A little thought into the UX the entry purchase would go a long way.

Solution:

• Make it easy for event organizers to incorporate one day TI license purchase in the event entry on their website.
• Don't require people to make TI license purchases on the TI website.

The fact that the TI membership runs from Jan - Jan means that most newbies who aren't sure how many events they are going to enter and very unlikely to purchase a years membership anytime past April.

Solution:
Reduce registration cost each month accordingly
or
Have the membership run for 12 months after payment.



Making a website design guide available to the people running the event would go a long way. The amount of event websites that don't clearly show the

• Time of the event
• Cost of entry
• Location of the event
• Event distances
• Registration closing time
• Sign on times and locations

on the website is crazy. And the number of sites that say "X is the same as last year's event" is quite frustrating.
It's not easy to put yourself in the shoes of a visitor when creating a website, but I think it's worth making event organisers aware that there may be issues with theirs.

Totally agree with these points. Also, for my first TI annual membership I went to sign up for a race and had to enter my TI Membership number on some other website. I didn't have the card with me, so I thought I'd get it from the TI website as they have a member sign-in area. Nowhere in there does it say what my TI membership number is. I even emailed the admins cos I thought I was being daft but they confirmed that's the case and had to look it up and email it to me. What website logs you in and then doesn't tell you your basic account info?

Without wishing to denigrate TI's efforts, the website needs more thought put into it. I'd like to be able to log in and then sign up/manage a few races without having to jump around to several different sites. It was very confusing to begin with for myself and for two work colleagues all starting out and it's only after doing this a few times that I'm more comfortable that it's "normal" to be bounced from website to website during sign-ups.

I look forward to a revamp when it happens and my thanks to all contributing to improving the Irish race experience

EC1000

tunney wrote: »

Was it an accurate course? I know some clubs (ie that one) previously deliberately shortened their races to make them the fastest in Ireland.

Dont think he is saying that he did that time last night but he has done that in the past.... he did CK Tri 2 years ago as part of a relay and was out of the water 4 mins ahead of anyone else (in a pretty decent NS field). A hell of a swimmer.

tunney

EC1000 wrote: »

Dont think he is saying that he did that time last night but he has done that in the past.... he did CK Tri 2 years ago as part of a relay and was out of the water 4 mins ahead of anyone else (in a pretty decent NS field). A hell of a swimmer.

ah right, it was the whole "last night" bit that threw me.

MojoMaker

A former 1500m freestyle national champion and current 800m national junior record holder. If he ever gets going in Triathlon he will be a serious contender. Can run 16.x 5K with little or no formal run training.

sconhome

MojoMaker wrote: »

A former 1500m freestyle national champion and current 800m national junior record holder. If he ever gets going in Triathlon he will be a serious contender. Can run 16.x 5K with little or no formal run training.

Who is this masked man?

peter kern

i would say swim was 50 m long y day run i would guess was bang on
and the 15.2x for 1500 i mention was swam in a pool .

tunney wrote: »

Was it an accurate course? I know some clubs (ie that one) previously deliberately shortened their races to make them the fastest in Ireland.

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

ah right, it was the whole "last night" bit that threw me.

how many aquathons with a 1500 m swim is there in Ireland?

interested

I blame genetics on this anomaly - his swimming and how nice a bloke he is

http://openwaterpedia.com/index.php?title=Conor_Turner
"Conor Turner is an Irish open water swimmer from Dublin who received the Juvenile Performance of the Year from the Irish Long Distance Swimming Association in 2012 for his swim of 59 minutes 15 seconds in the 5 km Camlough race."

http://clwf.eu/results/clwf-5km-swim-2012/

Skins.