Tesla Model III coming in 2017, BMW 3 series rival

Sabre Man

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/87867/tesla-model-iii-to-challenge-bmw-3-series-world-exclusive

I think this could be a game changer if they can produce enough of it.

Sesshoumaru

There was one spotted in Cork a few days ago, already a game changer I think!



After reading that article I am more looking forward to this new Model III. At least there is a chance I could afford a Model III The ESB charger in the pciture is a 22kW model, so that Tesla should be able to fully charge in 4 hours, even if it is the p85 model.

kdouglas

I'm hoping by the time the Tesla 3 reaches Ireland (2018 I reckon) that I'll be able to buy one from brand new, unless something impressive comes out from another manufacturer in the meantime, but I'm expecting the Tesla Model 3 will be the first car of it's size with a range that almost anywhere in Ireland is do-able with little or no charging.

A 400 mile ev is interesting, but I don't know how they intend to fast charge it ?

Carrying around a huge heavy expensive battery is a waste of resources if you ask me, faster charging longer lasting batteries are more what we need.

Who needs the equivalent of 2-3 weeks electricity supply sitting in the driveway ?

Sabre Man

Deleted User wrote: »

A 400 mile ev is interesting, but I don't know how they intend to fast charge it ?

Carrying around a huge heavy expensive battery is a waste of resources if you ask me, faster charging longer lasting batteries are more what we need.

Who needs the equivalent of 2-3 weeks electricity supply sitting in the driveway ?

Superchargers. When Tesla starts selling cars in Ireland I expect they will build superchargers in the major population centres.

Here's a map of current and planned superchargers: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Smaller batteries are fine for small journeys but what do you do for longer journeys, eg. Dublin-Cork? A Tesla will be able to do it without having to stop and spend ages recharging.

Sabre Man

Sabre Man wrote: »

Superchargers. When Tesla starts selling cars in Ireland I expect they will build superchargers in the major population centres.

Here's a map of current and planned superchargers: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Smaller batteries are fine for small journeys but what do you do for longer journeys, eg. Dublin-Cork? A Tesla will be able to do it without having to stop and spend ages recharging.

I'd hardly call the 85 Kwh battery in the current Model S small. 250-300 miles range is more than enough with a 30 min super charge for another 200 miles range.

Our CRV can go about 300 miles before it needs a refill, so charging the existing model S in 5-10 mins would be more than enough.

That's fine for those travelling Dublin-Cork regularly, but for 99% of the population it's unnecessary.

Sabre Man

With smaller batteries I was referring to other electric cars. The Model S can also come with a 60 KWh battery.

Sabre Man

Sabre Man wrote: »

With smaller batteries I was referring to other electric cars. The Model S can also come with a 60 KWh battery.

Ah yeah I agree, with the small batteries but for the 1-2 trips a year that someone might do 400 miles in one day they can borrow an ice from family, friends etc.

One great advantage of big batteries though is 1, they can take a greater charge current, 2 they can delivery more current, 3, they suffer less from cycling because of a greater range you'll need to charge less.and 4, degradation is far less noticeable in a car with 300 miles range than a car with 80.

It will be interesting if Nissan choose Tesla to make the battery packs for Leaf II. They'd be fools if they didn't. So mould most car makers.

Leaf II must have at least 40 Kwh as standard but I have a strong feeling the same 24 Kwh will be offered with a larger pack as an "option".

I can't understand why Mercedes choose only a 28 Kwh Tesla pack for their B class EV.

Oafley Jones

Deleted User wrote: »

A 400 mile ev is interesting, but I don't know how they intend to fast charge it ?

Carrying around a huge heavy expensive battery is a waste of resources if you ask me, faster charging longer lasting batteries are more what we need.

Who needs the equivalent of 2-3 weeks electricity supply sitting in the driveway ?

Yet...

Deleted User wrote: »

The plug in Prius is a ridiculously expensive waste of time.

The price premium is huge for such a tiny battery.

It's a bit pointless because the battery is far too small and anyone driving one is usually driving 5-12 miles per day which is perfect for a full electric car, so why carry the extra weight of the engine and not fill it with batteries.

Perplexing.

kdouglas

Deleted User wrote: »

It will be interesting if Nissan choose Tesla to make the battery packs for Leaf II. They'd be fools if they didn't. So mould most car makers.

I would actually be surprised if Nissan use a Tesla pack for the next Leaf, they've already put significant resources into their EV R&D so the business decision would be to continue and improve the results from that investment.

Personally though, I'd like to see them use a Tesla pack for it's energy density, although I fully expect them to stick with automotive "safer" packs.

Oafley Jones

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Yet...



Perplexing.

I guess you don't know how small the battery is in the plug in Prius then ?

There's a big difference between that and the battery in the leaf.

kdouglas

kdouglas wrote: »

I would actually be surprised if Nissan use a Tesla pack for the next Leaf, they've already put significant resources into their EV R&D so the business decision would be to continue and improve the results from that investment.

Personally though, I'd like to see them use a Tesla pack for it's energy density, although I fully expect them to stick with automotive "safer" packs.

Yeah that's true, that investment better pay off, leaf two needs at least twice the range improvement.

reboot

Sabre Man wrote: »

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/87867/tesla-model-iii-to-challenge-bmw-3-series-world-exclusive

I think this could be a game changer if they can produce enough of it.

Worth perhaps checking BBC R 4 on 12.th.Sept last.Seems Tesla warranty not covering battery degradation? Prog was "You and yours"

reboot

reboot wrote: »

Worth perhaps checking BBC R 4 on 12.th.Sept last.Seems Tesla warranty not covering battery degradation? Prog was "You and yours"

The warranty covers defects and degradation due to defects.

You can't expect a battery warranty due to usage !

After 100-150K miles the model S 85 kWh should still have 170 miles range, this is almost 2.5 times that of a leaf with a brand new battery.

A leaf with 70 % capacity means it will have about 50 miles range v around 150-170 for the model s with 85 kWh battery.

So it's more important to take care of the leaf battery which you can't replace. At least you have the,option to replace it in the model s but my guess is that most people will still be happy with 170 miles range in about 10-15 years.

Sabre Man

Tesla released the following statement last month: Infinite Mile Warranty

The Tesla Model S drive unit warranty has been increased to match that of the battery pack. That means the 85 kWh Model S, our most popular model by far, now has an 8 year, infinite mile warranty on both the battery pack and drive unit. There is also no limit on the number of owners during the warranty period.

Moreover, the warranty extension will apply retroactively to all Model S vehicles ever produced. In hindsight, this should have been our policy from the beginning of the Model S program. If we truly believe that electric motors are fundamentally more reliable than gasoline engines, with far fewer moving parts and no oily residue or combustion byproducts to gum up the works, then our warranty policy should reflect that.

To investors in Tesla, I must acknowledge that this will have a moderately negative effect on Tesla earnings in the short term, as our warranty reserves will necessarily have to increase above current levels. This is amplified by the fact that we are doing so retroactively, not just for new customers. However, by doing the right thing for Tesla vehicle owners at this early stage of our company, I am confident that it will work out well in the long term.

– Elon


By December 2015 there should be superchargers in Belfast, Dublin, Cork and Galway.
Source: http://insideevs.com/uk-ireland-supercharger-coverage-plan-december-2015/

The warranty does not cover battery degradation due to usage, charging and discharging etc.

If you reach 50 % battery capacity in 7 years due to normal usage them this is not covered.

However, this will only happen due to a defective string of cells or protection circuit called the bms and this will be covered under warranty.

Cycling of a model S 85 KWh battery won't be nearly as much of an issue with a model S as a leaf because the huge model S battery won't see nearly as much usage because most people do not drive 260 miles a day.

One reason I insist that longer lasting faster charging batteries are more important than all out range.

September1

I think importance of battery life is overestimated. ICE cars do not degrade in such fashion, yet their lifetime is also quite limited. I think very few owners would ever invest in new LEAF battery.

September1

September1 wrote: »

I think importance of battery life is overestimated. ICE cars do not degrade in such fashion, yet their lifetime is also quite limited. I think very few owners would ever invest in new LEAF battery.

Depends on what you call limited, there are a lot of people out there that depend on 2nd hand cars and there are a lot of 2nd hand cars with over 150K miles on the clock, the difference being the ice car will still have more than adequate range. Hardly what you'd call limited.

No I don't think many would buy a new battery for the Leaf, but you could say that what you save on maintenance on an ice could go towards a new battery, but as it stands now, Nissan Ireland will not allow you replace the battery, they do not want anything to do with replacing the batteries and disposing of old ones.

A leaf could last 10-15 years for someone who drives no more than 40 miles a day or 4 years for someone who drives 110 miles a day.

So it's not like the battery will die, it's how long it lasts before the reduced range becomes a problem.

A model S with a 85 Kwh battery will most likely be more than usable for the life of the car. Even with a 30% loss of capacity it will still cover 160-170 miles. And it will last a lot more miles to 70% than the Leaf because there will be much less cycling of the battery and heat from fast charging won't be much of a problem because the battery is cooled.

September1

Deleted User wrote: »

Depends on what you call limited, there are a lot of people out there that depend on 2nd hand cars and there are a lot of 2nd hand cars with over 150K miles on the clock, the difference being the ice car will still have more than adequate range. Hardly what you'd call limited.
.

I could not find Irish numbers but in UK cars older than 13 years have lower share than cars 2 years of less. Clearly cars lifetime is pretty limited.

September1

September1 wrote: »

I could not find Irish numbers but in UK cars older than 13 years have lower share than cars 2 years of less. Clearly cars lifetime is pretty limited.

You don't have to look at 13 year old cars to see 150K + miles on the clock.

My Prius is 7 years old maybe 7.5 and has almost 124 K miles.

My old A4 had 200K miles and was 8 years old.

I've no doubt a Leaf could possibly see 150 K miles but the question is, will it give you suitable range ?

It's highly possible the Model S will give more than adequate range at 150 K +miles.

Elon Musk has said that their prototype Model S is still going strong with 300K miles, He didn't of course say how much range it's lost but you can be sure it's a good bit more than even a leaf with a new battery.

One of the advantages of having a big ass battery, but I'd be more in favour of a smaller battery that lasts a lot longer and can charge a lot faster.

It will be interesting to see the results with the E-Golf and I3 in a few years.

reboot

Sabre Man wrote: »

Tesla released the following statement last month: Infinite Mile Warranty

The Tesla Model S drive unit warranty has been increased to match that of the battery pack. That means the 85 kWh Model S, our most popular model by far, now has an 8 year, infinite mile warranty on both the battery pack and drive unit. There is also no limit on the number of owners during the warranty period.

Moreover, the warranty extension will apply retroactively to all Model S vehicles ever produced. In hindsight, this should have been our policy from the beginning of the Model S program. If we truly believe that electric motors are fundamentally more reliable than gasoline engines, with far fewer moving parts and no oily residue or combustion byproducts to gum up the works, then our warranty policy should reflect t
To investors in Tesla, I must acknowledge that this will have a moderately negative effect on Tesla earnings in the short term, as our warranty reserves will necessarily have to increase above current levels. This is amplified by the fact that we are doing so retroactively, not just for new customers. However, by doing the right thing for Tesla vehicle owners at this early stage of our company, I am confident that it will work out well in the long term.

– Elon


By December 2015 there should be superchargers in Belfast, Dublin, Cork and Galway.
Source: http://insideevs.com/uk-ireland-supercharger-coverage-plan-december-2015/

Am I right in thinking the Tesla has around 7,000 cells in series and weighs two ton?

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

The warranty covers defects and degradation due to defects.

You can't expect a battery warranty due to usage !

After 100-150K miles the model S 85 kWh should still have 170 miles range, this is almost 2.5 times that of a leaf with a brand new battery.

A leaf with 70 % capacity means it will have about 50 miles range v around 150-170 for the model s with 85 kWh battery.

So it's more important to take care of the leaf battery which you can't replace. At least you have the,option to replace it in the model s but my guess is that most people will still be happy with 170 miles range in about 10-15 years.

I don't think I heard how long the Tesla battery took to degrade in the BBC radio 4 piece, couldn't find the podcast, that would be an important fact .

reboot

reboot wrote: »

Am I right in thinking the Tesla has around 7,000 cells in series and weighs two ton?

Indeed, give or take a few. Very robust pack though.

reboot

reboot wrote: »

I don't think I heard how long the Tesla battery took to degrade in the BBC radio 4 piece, couldn't find the podcast, that would be an important fact .

There are a whole lot of factors, but my point is this, even when the 85 Kwh model S battery reaches what the battery industry call, end of life or EOL, being 70% the model S will still have about 2.5 times the range of a Nissan Leaf with a brand new battery.

It will also take a lot longer to reach 70% because there will be far less cycling on the battery than on the much smaller pack of the leaf.

The Model s battery is also cooled and will not get nearly as hot as the leaf battery if fast charging, and fast charging multiple times in a day which for a car with 260 Miles range, is unlikely. The Leaf will naturally need a lot more fast charges on a long trip and because of the smaller battery in the Leaf, owners are also more likely to take the battery beyond 80% and this is a no no if it's hot, this is actually abusive and a huge surprise that Nissan allowed more than an 80% charge on the fast charger.

This could be the same for the Zoe, no one knows yet and there is no leaf spy equivalent nor temp display on the dash.

The I3 battery is cooled, the E-Golf isn't.

The Kia soul is air cooled.

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed, give or take a few. Very robust pack though.

I am not anti Tesla,he was a hero to many of us (AC of course),but I just don't get the car. I sold a Mazda RX 8 with 45K miles for £1000.An ICE car with only three moving engine parts,why would I want to replace it with a £100K Tesla, I'm sure its just me?

reboot

reboot wrote: »

I am not anti Tesla,he was a hero to many of us (AC of course),but I just don't get the car. I sold a Mazda RX 8 with 45K miles for £1000.An ICE car with only three moving engine parts,why would I want to replace it with a £100K Tesla, I'm sure its just me?

Why will people buy any 100K car ?, is because they want to and can afford to. To some people spending 100K on a car is only pocket change.

And to others they will lease it like someone would lease an average car, they just earn enough so it's the same maybe as you or I buying a Leaf/Zoe.

If someone was willing to sacrifice some range then the 60 Kwn Model S can be got for BMW 5 Series money. Though the VRT might actually sting people here in the South as Electrics are no longer exempt, that didn't take long but they do qualify for a vrt reduction. The model S 60 Kwh will still offer plenty of range to drive on a small Island like Ireland anyway, especially if you can fast charge or by the end of next year super charge. It will be good fun to drive and cost a fraction to run of a BMW.

Those who own the Model S 85 Kwn and the 85 Kwh P the sport versions absolutely love them.

Electric drive is fantastic as you know, now imagine an ev with real power ?

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

Why will people buy any 100K car ?, is because they want to and can afford to. To some people spending 100K on a car is only pocket change.

And to others they will lease it like someone would lease an average car, they just earn enough so it's the same maybe as you or I buying a Leaf/Zoe.

If someone was willing to sacrifice some range then the 60 Kwn Model S can be got for BMW 5 Series money. Though the VRT might actually sting people here in the South as Electrics are no longer exempt, that didn't take long but they do qualify for a vrt reduction. The model S 60 Kwh will still offer plenty of range to drive on a small Island like Ireland anyway, especially if you can fast charge or by the end of next year super charge. It will be good fun to drive and cost a fraction to run of a BMW.

Those who own the Model S 85 Kwn and the 85 Kwh P the sport versions absolutely love them.

Electric drive is fantastic as you know, now imagine an ev with real power ?

Can't and won't argue with any of that. Thanks

The 60 Kwh starts at 55K Euro's , add 23% vat and that becomes 67 K Europe is such a rip off !!!

That comes without super charging.

You can add two ac chargers for 20 Kw AC charging a bit like zoe only far less advanced.

A BMW 530D automatic costs about 62 K but I'm forgetting the grant which is 5K so that would actually made the 60 Kwh model S the same price.