Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

smurfjed

Egginacup, I have never discussed the WHO with you, as I really don't care, but we have gone around and around and around with the HOW on multiple occasions, i therefore would have thought that you were beyond this type of garbage..

some believe that the plane was shot down by jets (and the evidence certainly points that way) and others simply believe it was shot down by a surface to air missile, despite there not being a shred of proof.

As for this....

The results of that investigation will never be published because they can't implicate Novorussians so it'll at best be a whitewash or a fabrication

As I told you over and over again, the results will be published in accordance with the relevant ICAO Annex by ACCIDENT INVESTIGATORS, they will not implicate ANYONE as that isn't the scope of the Annex.

Egginacup

gandalf wrote: »

Well from your perspective it's here to spread falsehoods Egg.

I'm not spreading falsehoods at all Gandalf. A variety of posters on here are stating categorically that the MH17 airliner was shot down by novorussian fighters and they have ironclad evidence or such evidence exists. Piliger being one notorious mouthpiece for this kind of talk. These are falsehoods. Other posters are saying I work for the Kremlin. More falsehoods of the schoolyard genre. John Kerry has stated that he has proof putin is responsible. More falsehoods from a man who would be more at home with Waldorf, Statler and Kermit the Frog, than on the international stage.
I've pointed out in the past your poor performance in siding with hearsay, rumour and propaganda over evidence and that is a truism, not a falsehood.

Gatling

Popcorn time

Egginacup

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Did it really take 3 attempts to reply to my post?

Was the retort side of the brain a bit slow, or was there a shift change at the 'I heart shirtless autocrats' fan club?

And you still haven't answered the question except with some cheap dig at peasant farmers or the above jibe.

Egginacup

smurfjed wrote: »

Egginacup, I have never discussed the WHO with you, as I really don't care, but we have gone around and around and around with the HOW on multiple occasions, i therefore would have thought that you were beyond this type of garbage..



As for this....
As I told you over and over again, the results will be published in accordance with the relevant ICAO Annex by ACCIDENT INVESTIGATORS, they will not implicate ANYONE as that isn't the scope of the Annex.

Smurf, the Ukraine are not only involved in the flight investigation but they have veto power to gag any findings by the other parties. The Ukrainian government are suspects in this crime yet they're steering the investigation. I would have thought you would have thought that grounds for a farce but again many on here will yell that the Kiev government should be conducting the investigation for some stupid reason. If you're actually happy with fabricating blame and apportioning it to novorussians then just say so. Say that you're happy with a stitch up. Otherwise have the strength of character to stand on your own two feet and demand impartiality, transparency and above all solid proof.

gandalf

Egginacup wrote: »

I'm not spreading falsehoods at all Gandalf. A variety of posters on here are stating categorically that the MH17 airliner was shot down by novorussian fighters and they have ironclad evidence or such evidence exists. Piliger being one notorious mouthpiece for this kind of talk. These are falsehoods. Other posters are saying I work for the Kremlin. More falsehoods of the schoolyard genre. John Kerry has stated that he has proof putin is responsible. More falsehoods from a man who would be more at home with Waldorf, Statler and Kermit the Frog, than on the international stage.
I've pointed out in the past your poor performance in siding with hearsay, rumour and propaganda over evidence and that is a truism, not a falsehood.

You have pointed out absolutely nothing Egg you have exposed yourself as nothing more than an apologist for illegal Russian actions in supporting terrorists. I engaged with you before but I stopped because you were spinning around in circles spouting rubbish that has been seeded from the propagandists in the Kremlin. You are back again doing the same old rinse repeat act.

As far as I am concerned there is one major danger to peace in Europe and it comes in the form of your hero Vladimir Putin and his cronies.

Egginacup

gandalf wrote: »

You have pointed out absolutely nothing Egg you have exposed yourself as nothing more than an apologist for illegal Russian actions in supporting terrorists. I engaged with you before but I stopped because you were spinning around in circles spouting rubbish that has been seeded from the propagandists in the Kremlin. You are back again doing the same old rinse repeat act.

As far as I am concerned there is one major danger to peace in Europe and it comes in the form of your hero Vladimir Putin and his cronies.

You see gandalf, you and this other character Bojack are birds of a feather. You can't qualify anything you say and when logic and rationale is asked of you you have some kind of internal tantrum and spit out immature little digs like "there must have been a shift change at the 'I heart shirtless autocrats1 fan club!" (we can thank Bojack for that gem of wisdom), and your insistence that Putin is "my hero".

I'm not part of a fanclub or a fifth column or some shilling-trolling movement and anyone who thinks that really does belong with a tinfoil hat on their heads. I, bizarrely, am interested in truth over lies, facts over fiction and propaganda, reality over fantasy. When facts get in your way gandalf, rather than stepping back and reassessing your position (something that takes a bit of fortitude, honesty, mental balance and moral fibre) you ignore anything that would cause you to question your entrenched view and you just come out with some weak coverall excuse like "As far as I'm concerned, Putin's a baddie"

You mention terrorists. Neo-nazi gangs who are in power in Kiev are deliberately targeting civilians. Their Donbass brigade of savages are conducting crimes against humanity, they are shelling schools and hospitals all the while being armed and funded by NATO and with the approval of NATO. These are facts, facts that you don't want to hear because they are uncomfortable and it's clear that you don't have the courage to face ugly truths and say you were mistaken in your bias. These are terrorists and they are being armed by NATO and the US.

Now you can bleat all you want about the mythical illegal actions of Putin, his non-existent invasion of Ukraine, his non-existent threatening of his neighbours and all that other complete nonsense. Drag out and flog again the dead horse of Crimea who never voted to be given to Ukraine but voted to go back to Russia. Deflect about Georgia, deflect about homosexuals in Moscow, call Putin a short-arse or some crap if it makes you feel better but all your beliefs and all your shouting and hand-wringing about Russia being a threat to world peace and how we must build another Iron Curtain doesn't amount to a hill of ant-shit because it all rubbish fabricated by US/NATO.
A child could see it, but you can't seem to.

gandalf

What a child can see Egg is that you are firmly in the "US bad camp, Russia good" no matter what is being discussed. No amount of waffling by you can change that. Just taking a quick scan through your posting history makes that quite obvious to me. And then you have the cheek to call me biased. I call out bull**** when I see it. I will do it with the Americans and I will do it with the Russians. You on the other belong to the group that will act as an apologist for the illegal actions of your preferred block by immediately citing the evils of the other as a means of deflection and justification which in my books is pathetic and hypocritical.

Gatling

I feel all left out 😢

Egginacup

gandalf wrote: »

What a child can see Egg is that you are firmly in the "US bad camp, Russia good" no matter what is being discussed. No amount of waffling by you can change that. Just taking a quick scan through your posting history makes that quite obvious to me. And then you have the cheek to call me biased. I call out bull**** when I see it. I will do it with the Americans and I will do it with the Russians. You on the other belong to the group that will act as an apologist for the illegal actions of your preferred block by immediately citing the evils of the other as a means of deflection and justification which in my books is pathetic and hypocritical.

No, no, no, gandalf...you're not getting off that easily. You're not getting away with painting a puerile little black and white argument or these low-rent, binary arguments like "You don't like Coke, then you must like Pepsi!"
You're the one who is talking about "Russia bad, US good" like some character in Animal Farm. You talk of illegal actions yet can't condemn illegal actions by all sides. That right there is the foul stench of hypocrisy. You state that Putin has violated international law. Put your money where your mouth is. What international law has Putin or the Russians violated?

This is your chance to prove that you are a serious and critically thinking participant in this discussion, one who can do his own research and analysis and find facts in a sea of hubris, lies, and propaganda.

gandalf

Egginacup wrote: »

This is your chance to prove that you are a serious and critically thinking participant in this discussion, one who can do his own research and analysis and find facts in a sea of hubris, lies, and propaganda.

Egg I interact with those who are worthy of interaction not some one tune potential sockpuppet with delusions of grandeur.

El Guapo!

Mod: Egginacup banned for ignoring instruction.
Everyone else, keep it civil and don't get personal.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

As far as I am concerned there is one major danger to peace in Europe and it comes in the form of your hero Vladimir Putin and his cronies.

The Global Terrorism Index, produced by the London-based Institute for Economics and Peace, also found that 80 percent of terrorist attack fatalities occurred in only five countries; Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria, Pakistan and Syria.

Worryingly, the 63 percent increase from 11,133 terrorist deaths in 2012 to 17,958 in 2013 is the biggest year-on-year escalation since records began in 2000. Since the turn of the millennium, the number of deaths due to terrorist activates has increased fivefold, which also coincided with US military campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq.

gandalf

Two can play at that game

Investors see Russia as the greatest threat to global financial markets, blowing the deadly Ebola virus and Islamic State terrorists out of the water, said a poll released Monday by Bloomberg Global Poll.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-seen-as-greatest-threat-to-global-financial-markets/511308.html

sparksfly

So one report looks at the US/NATO's huge part in terrorist attack fatalities, the other at the Russians being the greatest threat to global financial markets.

Give me the second bunch anyday.

Gatling

sparksfly wrote: »

So one report looks at the US/NATO's huge part in terrorist attack fatalities,

Give me the second bunch anyday.

So where did it say that ,
other than Afghanistan ,syria not nato ,nigeria not nato,Pakistan not nato ,iraq

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

So where did it say that ,
other than Afghanistan ,syria not nato ,nigeria not nato,Pakistan not nato ,iraq

You should read this. How to make a bad situation a lot worse.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/17/isis-war-cia-arming-rebels-syria

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

You should read this. How to make a bad situation a lot worse.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/17/isis-war-cia-arming-rebels-syria

Nothing new there once the CIA is involved in anything failure follows closely ,
I will argue a point that arming mujahedeen in the 80's didnt lead to 9\12 .
Thats a whole different thread

smurfjed

but they have veto power to gag any findings by the other parties

Can you kindly supply a reference to this as i don't remember reading about veto powers in the ICAO annex.

If you're actually happy with fabricating blame and apportioning it to novorussians then just say so. Say that you're happy with a stitch up. Otherwise have the strength of character to stand on your own two feet and demand impartiality, transparency and above all solid proof.

I have said this before and i will say it again, I don't give a D*** about the WHO, I care about the HOW.

I fly aircraft for a living and i want to know how i can protect myself and passengers against this in the future. The games played by Russia /Nato/ Ukraine etc don't actually bother me in the least.

Busted Flat.

Getting close to the truth, honest brokers excluded.
MH17: Malaysia’s Barring from Investigation Reeks of Cover-up
First appeared: http://journal-neo.org/2014/11/28/mh17-malaysia-s-barring-from-investigation-reeks-of-cover-up/



It was a Malaysian jet, carrying Malaysian passengers, flown by Malaysian pilots, yet after Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over Ukraine in July 2014, Malaysia has been systematically blocked from participating in the investigation, leaving an overwhelmingly pro-NATO bloc in charge of the evidence, investigation and outcome as well as the manner in which the investigation will be carried out.

Despite the integral role Malaysia has played during several pivotal moments in the aftermath of the disaster, it appears that the closer to the truth the investigation should be getting, the further Malaysia itself is being pushed from both the evidence and any influence it has on the likely conclusions of the investigation. With the downed aircraft in question being Malaysian, Malaysia as a partner in the investigation would seem a given. Its exclusion from the investigation appears to be an indication that the investigation’s objectivity has been compromised and that the conclusions it draws will likely be politically motivated.
First appeared: http://journal-neo.org/2014/11/28/mh17-malaysia-s-barring-from-investigation-reeks-of-cover-up/

S.R.

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Getting close to the truth, honest brokers excluded.
MH17: Malaysia’s Barring from Investigation Reeks of Cover-up
First appeared: http://journal-neo.org/2014/11/28/mh17-malaysia-s-barring-from-investigation-reeks-of-cover-up/



It was a Malaysian jet, carrying Malaysian passengers, flown by Malaysian pilots, yet after Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over Ukraine in July 2014, Malaysia has been systematically blocked from participating in the investigation, leaving an overwhelmingly pro-NATO bloc in charge of the evidence, investigation and outcome as well as the manner in which the investigation will be carried out.

Despite the integral role Malaysia has played during several pivotal moments in the aftermath of the disaster, it appears that the closer to the truth the investigation should be getting, the further Malaysia itself is being pushed from both the evidence and any influence it has on the likely conclusions of the investigation. With the downed aircraft in question being Malaysian, Malaysia as a partner in the investigation would seem a given. Its exclusion from the investigation appears to be an indication that the investigation’s objectivity has been compromised and that the conclusions it draws will likely be politically motivated.
First appeared: http://journal-neo.org/2014/11/28/mh17-malaysia-s-barring-from-investigation-reeks-of-cover-up/

Dutch team that works in Donetsk don't even want to collect all parts of plane. Locals showed them parts that have not been collected yet, but dutch refused to take them saying that they are ok without them, that they don't need them. :eek: WTF???? :eek:

I have never heard something like this in my life! As far as I know the more parts you have the more chances to find out the truth. If only you don't want know the truth then behaviour of dutch team in Donetsk is logical. :cool:

Grayson

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

terrorist attacks are not the only disruption to peace. Sending troops into Georgia and now Ukraine is a pretty good way to break the peace.

Armistice

Grayson wrote: »

terrorist attacks are not the only disruption to peace. Sending troops into Georgia and now Ukraine is a pretty good way to break the peace.

If you had a care to educate yourself on the facts you would understand that there has been a Russian peacekeeping force in this area since the 90's because of the risk of Georgia attacking the Osettians. Ossetia have been trying to claim independence since the fall of the USSR and the Georgians kept them down. Georgia had promised unlimited autonomy to South Ossetia , just days before Condaleeza "war monger" Rice made an appearance in Georgia and the Georgians began shelling South Ossetian villages in response to an IED attack by Ossetian separatists.

The results were that the Russian peacekeeping force who had been there since the 90s to , you know, keep the peace, Move in and handed Georgia their asses. Stopping a potential genocide of the South Ossetians.

The Russians responded to Georgian aggression.

donvito99

S.R. wrote: »

Dutch team that works in Donetsk don't even want to collect all parts of plane. Locals showed them parts that have not been collected yet, but dutch refused to take them saying that they are ok without them, that they don't need them. :eek: WTF???? :eek:

I have never heard something like this in my life! As far as I know the more parts you have the more chances to find out the truth. If only you don't want know the truth then behaviour of dutch team in Donetsk is logical. :cool:

A Boeing 777 is a massive thing, and unless flight 17 was comprehensively strafed with flac, I cannot see why some obscure section of fuselage would be worth flying home, especially given the harassment investigators have been subjected to so far.

S.R.

donvito99 wrote: »

A Boeing 777 is a massive thing, and unless flight 17 was comprehensively strafed with flac, I cannot see why some obscure section of fuselage would be worth flying home,

Well, if parts of plane with holes from either rocket or machine-gun are not worth flying home, then why to investigate at all?

donvito99 wrote: »

especially given the harassment investigators have been subjected to so far.

What harassment? Sexual or what?

S.R.

Grayson wrote: »

terrorist attacks are not the only disruption to peace. Sending troops into Georgia and now Ukraine is a pretty good way to break the peace.

Please stop lying!
No troops were sent to Georgia.
Troops were sent to Ossetia at the invitation of the Ossetians.

donvito99

S.R. wrote: »

Well, if parts of plane with holes from either rocket or machine-gun are not worth flying home, then why to investigate at all?

Prove that the parts left were in any way significant to investigation.

gordongekko

S.R. wrote: »

Please stop lying!
No troops were sent to Georgia.
Troops were sent to Ossetia at the invitation of the Ossetians.

That would be like the UK sending troops to Kerry at the request of the Healy-raes

The Diabolical Monocle

donvito99 wrote: »

Prove that the parts left were in any way significant to investigation.

i cant even



.... oh internet

donvito99

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

i cant even



.... oh internet

The argument is strong with this one.