Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

weisses

Busted Flat. wrote: »

That is central to the whole question, the Dutch are NATO members, it should never been let into their hands, it should have been handled by independent people in the forst place, the Dutch have on their hands now that is going to embarrasse their fellow members. That is why they want to pass the buck.

It where the Malaysians who filed the motion Because of the origin of the aircraft but its a joint motion between them and Dutch/belgian/Ukraine/Australia

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

Well who the hell else fired and shot down aircraft in the same period and same area using Buk missles .ehhhhhhhhhhh I wonder .

It was the Dutch who wanted to bring the UN motion .

Are you saying the dutch are some involved in some kind of conspiracy against poor oul Russia

Now let me see .... the Dutch as we already know have an ongoing investigation with the result due in October apparently, now the Dutch are calling for a tribunal to find out who's guilty before the result of the investigation is even released. Don't you think that this is highly irregular? Doesn't evidence have to be produced first before someone is found guilty?

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Now let me see .... the Dutch as we already know have an ongoing investigation with the result due in October apparently, now the Dutch are calling for a tribunal to find out who's guilty before the result of the investigation is even released. Don't you think that this is highly irregular? Doesn't evidence have to be produced first before someone is found guilty?

Well I believe what's coming out in October will say MH17 was shot down by an Ground to Air missles launched from Russian controlled east Ukraine.

What it wont say is who in the Russian government sent the Ground to Air missles to east Ukraine and who cleared the ground to air missles to fire on a civilian airliner,
It won't say who ordered the Ground to Air to return to russia and why

Busted Flat.

Gatling wrote: »

Well I believe what's coming out in October will say MH17 was shot down by an Ground to Air missles launched from Russian controlled east Ukraine.

What it wont say is who in the Russian government sent the Ground to Air missles to east Ukraine and who cleared the ground to air missles to fire on a civilian airliner,
It won't say who ordered the Ground to Air to return to russia and why

Thank god for juries, it will give some chance to people.

Busted Flat.

I know this is off thread and is Fox cartoon news if the report is correct how far is this find away fron Diago Garcia.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLHiwyfWIAEMwOu.jpg

Gatling

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Thank god for juries, it will give some chance to people.

Then charge putin and let the hauge decide

Gatling

Busted Flat. wrote: »

I know this is off thread and is Fox cartoon news if the report is correct how far is this find away fron Diago Garcia.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLHiwyfWIAEMwOu.jpg

But it was crashed in Ukraine wasnt it

Elmer Blooker

I'm watching BBC News 24 at the moment and their propaganda is as subtle and cunning as ever, I almost admire them!
This is what I heard - and I paused and rewound a few times just to make sure.
"THE US AND OTHER MEMBERS VOW TO FIND OTHER WAYS TO PROSECUTE SUSPECTS"
Very scary stuff! Who needs George Orwell?

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I'm watching BBC News 24 at the moment and their propaganda is as subtle and cunning as ever, I almost admire them!
This is what I heard - and I paused and rewound a few times just to make sure.
"THE US AND OTHER MEMBERS VOW TO FIND OTHER WAYS TO PROSECUTE SUSPECTS"
Very scary stuff! Who needs George Orwell?

11 out of 15 members of the UN voted for the motion

Country's who abstained China ,Venezuela, angloa

Russia vetoed

Conspiracy theories

Schadenfreudia

Gatling wrote: »

11 out of 15 members of the UN voted for the motion

Country's who abstained China ,Venezuela, angloa

Russia vetoed

Conspiracy theories

So?

When they want to sanction Israel for murdering 10 plane-loads of Palestinians in the recent Gaza attack (for example) the UNSC often votes 14 - 1; with a US veto!

The EU has a single foreign policy - and also two permanent members on the UNSC. Maybe if the UNSC gave China 5 permanent votes it could be taken more seriously....

Schadenfreudia

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I'm watching BBC News 24 at the moment and their propaganda is as subtle and cunning as ever, I almost admire them!
This is what I heard - and I paused and rewound a few times just to make sure.
"THE US AND OTHER MEMBERS VOW TO FIND OTHER WAYS TO PROSECUTE SUSPECTS"
Very scary stuff! Who needs George Orwell?

That can work both ways - the Russians might then seek alternative ways to prosecute those involved in the overthrown of the elected President of Ukraine.

That could end anywhere.

For a start Interpol would start shredding; as soon as the US/West tries to issue an arrest warren for some Russian you can be sure the Kremlin will seek the arrest and extradition of Victoria Nuland, for example.

What then - drone strikes on Russians as if they are Al Qaeda suspects?

Not without Armageddon!

Gatling

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

So?

The EU has a single foreign policy - and also two permanent members on the UNSC. Maybe if the UNSC gave China 5 permanent votes it could be taken more seriously....

Why give china 5 votes
Then Russia would need 6

You would honestly believe people would want to know why a civilian airliner was shot out of the sky ?

darkpagandeath

Gatling wrote: »

Why give china 5 votes
Then Russia would need 6

You would honestly believe people would want to know why a civilian airliner was shot out of the sky ?

Nah not if it blames Russia....

Schadenfreudia

Gatling wrote: »

Why give china 5 votes
Then Russia would need 6

You would honestly believe people would want to know why a civilian airliner was shot out of the sky ?

Nope, Population wouldn't support it. And one is enough for a veto.

It's these 11 - 3 type votes I was thinking about.

As for who shot it down - it was probably the Russian rebels and was almost certainly an error (I'm speculating).

It was over a war zone.

If the Americans had done something similar (think the Iranian passenger jet) there would be zero talk of prosecuting anyone.

The US would just hold an internal enquiry and announce they were innocent; **** just happens in war zones - and would veto any UN resolution seeking an international tribunal.

Simple fact that undermines any chance of having a globally accepted "court of law".

List the countries who won't sign to the ICC - because they can trust it not to be biased!

Gatling

I'd love to Putin named directly as been responsible for the shooting down of MH17 his orders put Russian troops and equipment in East Ukraine illegally.
He should be held accountable on as many fronts as possible .
Suppose the best than can be hoped for is ramped up sanctions and stripped of the world cup

Schadenfreudia

Gatling wrote: »

I'd love to Putin named directly as been responsible for the shooting down of MH17 his orders put Russian troops and equipment in East Ukraine illegally.
He should be held accountable on as many fronts as possible .
Suppose the best than can be hoped for is ramped up sanctions and stripped of the world cup

Yeah and I'd love Bush and Blair to be named directly as been responsible for the slaughter of a million people on their orders putting British and American troops and equipment in Iraq illegally.

(That's only for starters)

But my expectations are grounded in the real world :rolleyes:

darkpagandeath

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Yeah and I'd love Bush and Blair to be named directly as been responsible for the slaughter of a million people on their orders putting British and American troops and equipment in Iraq illegally.

(That's only for starters)

But my expectations are grounded in the real world :rolleyes:

How's that agreement working out with Russia in regards to the Ukraine and letting it's nukes go ? Sorry I mean treaty that was signed.

Gatling

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Yeah and I'd love Bush and Blair to be named directly as been responsible for the slaughter of a million people on their orders putting British and American troops and equipment in Iraq illegally.

(That's only for starters)

But my expectations are grounded in the real world :rolleyes:

So your response for everything is whataboutery.

This is An MH17 thread not Iran 1980 something or Iraq

InTheTrees

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Yeah and I'd love Bush and Blair to be named directly as been responsible for the slaughter of a million people on their orders putting British and American troops and equipment in Iraq illegally.

I think its generally accepted that they were responsible isnt it? Who doubts that now?

Bush especially. Blair was just his lap dog.

So....?

darkpagandeath

Gatling wrote: »

So your response for everything is whataboutery.

This is An MH17 thread not Iran 1980 something or Iraq

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31962644

Schadenfreudia

Gatling wrote: »

So your response for everything is whataboutery.

This is An MH17 thread not Iran 1980 something or Iraq

This thread was discussing International justice in general terms when I joined, specifically a UN vote.

Whataboutry is actually an essential pillar which any system of justice requires in order to be accepted - the law must be seen to apply equally to all.

We can see how the ICC is failing in Africa because it is failing the "whatabout" test.

The devastation caused by the invasion of Iraq is ongoing and the War Criminals who caused it are still at large.

As for Iran, the shooting down by the Americans of the passenger plane was in 1988, not 1980. The precedent set there is particularity relevant to the MH17 case.

Wouldn't you agree?

darkpagandeath

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

This thread was discussing International justice in general terms when I joined, specifically a UN vote.

Whataboutry is actually an essential pillar on which any system of justice requires in order to be accepted - the law must be seen to apply equally to all.

We can see how the ICC is failing in Africa because it is failing the "whatabout" test.

The devastation caused by the evasion of Iraq is ongoing and the War Criminals who caused it are still at large.

As for Iran, the shooting down by the Americans of the passenger plane was in 1988, not 1980. The precedent set there is particularity relevant to the MH17 case.

Wouldn't you agree?

Hey look over there, Not over here, Over there.

Gatling

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Hey look over there, Not over here, Over there.

No there !

Schadenfreudia

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Hey look over there, Not over here, Over there.

Nope.

Look everywhere or look nowhere. I realise that might not suit your political agenda.

All the more reason to look in both directions here is that the leading players for the prosecution are the same countries guilty of the unprosecuted crimes.

And brainless sneers are not a response to my position; they are merely attempts at obfuscation.

darkpagandeath

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Nope.

Look everywhere or look nowhere. I realise that might not suit your political agenda.

What political agenda would that be now ? Blaming Russian separatists shooting down a passenger plane ?

Schadenfreudia

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What political agenda would that be now ? Blaming Russian separatists shooting down a passenger plane ?

Advocating a system of international justice that is run by one set of countries and directed at another set.

Would you agree to include the shooting down of IA655 and the "illegal movement of weapons into Iraq" with the MH investigation.

Let all three proceed together?

Yes or no?

weisses

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Nope.

Look everywhere or look nowhere. I realise that might not suit your political agenda.

All the more reason to look in both directions here is that the leading players for the prosecution are the same countries guilty of the unprosecuted crimes.

And brainless sneers are not a response to my position; they are merely attempts at obfuscation.

So each of the permanent members of the security council has a shoot down an airliner for free card ?

I mean we all know the UN isn't functioning but that is a different discussion

darkpagandeath

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Advocating a system of international justice that is run by one set of countries and directed at another set.

Would you agree to include the shooting down of IA655 and the "illegal movement of weapons into Iraq" with the MH investigation.

Let all three proceed together?

Yes or no?

Look Look, Over there over there, Not over here, Look look over there.

InTheTrees

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

All the more reason to look in both directions here is that the leading players for the prosecution are the same countries guilty of the unprosecuted crimes.

The Dutch???

Really.

:cool:

Schadenfreudia

weisses wrote: »

So each of the permanent members of the security council has a shoot down an airliner for free card ?

I'd prefer if you answered my question before asking me one.