Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

loosetongue

Apparently it costs too much on fuel and delays to divert around that area and many were of the opinion that it was not necessary to to fly around the area as the planes flying over 33,000 feet could never be hit by shoulder/mobile RPGs.

They might have reconsidered taking such a position if they had known the separatists had surface to air missiles that they were likely to use.

I was watching al jazerra english which i find to be a very good news station. One expert they interviewed said although the missile system the believe was used dates back to soviet era, it is quite sophisticated.

He said it hits its target 95% of the time but it depends on the altitude and speed of the target. He also said that missiles could reach 72 or 82000 feet so, the civil passenger plane flying at 33,000 feet would not have had a chance assuming, the equipment was used competently.

GrumPy

dj jarvis wrote: »

Aljazeera have just shown camera phone footage of the plane hitting the ground
jesus , what away to die

Link?

Rhys Essien

The reason that airlines continued on this route is because they thought there was zero danger especially flying over 6 miles up.

Ukraine are now saying they have intercepted phone calls of seperatist leaders talking about shooting down a plane seconds/minutes after this happened.They know the people and also have the phone numbers used.

Obviously,the seperatists had to be trained up to use these missile launchers or there was 'specialist people' working with them.

Finally,if it was mistaken by seperatists,why the hell would there be a Ukrainian military plane flying at 33,000ft so close to the Russian border heading towards Russian airspace??.No logic there.Those seperatists must be some dopes.

dj jarvis

GrumPy wrote: »

Link?

watch the channel on sky , they have it on loop twenty minutes ago

its a long distance shot of nothing , then an explosion , as the plane hits the ground

comongethappy

Rhys Essien wrote: »

The reason that airlines continued on this route is because they thought there was zero danger especially flying over 6 miles up.

Ukraine are now saying they have intercepted phone calls of seperatist leaders talking about shooting down a plane seconds/minutes after this happened.They know the people and also have the phone numbers used.

Obviously,the seperatists had to be trained up to use these missile launchers or there was 'specialist people' working with them.

Finally,if it was mistaken by seperatists,why the hell would there be a Ukrainian military plane flying at 33,000ft so close to the Russian border heading towards Russian airspace??.No logic there.Those seperatists must be some dopes.

They know that they have made a big mistake.... They are just trying to divert blame.

Rhys Essien

They now have called a 3 day ceasefire 'to let people in'.I wonder has Putin summoned them to Moscow.There will be someone going to Siberia over this.

loughside

Rhys Essien wrote: »

The reason that airlines continued on this route is because they thought there was zero danger especially flying over 6 miles up.

Ukraine are now saying they have intercepted phone calls of seperatist leaders talking about shooting down a plane seconds/minutes after this happened.They know the people and also have the phone numbers used.

and here is that conversation, Terrorist leader/Russian Intelligence handler...

`Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was allegedly shot down by a group of Russian-backed Cossack militants near the village of Chornukhine, Luhansk Oblast, some 80 kilometers north-west of Donetsk, according to recordings of intercepted phone calls between Russian military intelligence officers and members of terrorist groups, released by the country’s security agency (SBU).
One phone call apparently was made at 4:40 p.m. Kyiv time, or 20 minutes after the plane crash, by Igor Bezler, who the SBU says is a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. He reports to a person identified by Ukraine’s SBU as a colonel in the main intelligence department of the general headquarters of the armed forces of the Russian Federation Vasili Geranin regarding the shot down plane, which is about to be examined by the militants.
The second intercepted conversation released by the Security Service of Ukraine was apparently between militants nicknamed “Major” and “Greek” immediately upon inspection of the crash site.
“It’s 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft,” Major is recorded as saying, as he admitted to seeing no weapons on site. “Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.”
Read the full transcript of an intercepted phone call below:
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.
VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago.
SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.
“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
“Grek”: Yes, Major.
"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.
“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?
“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.
“Greek”: Are many people there?
“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).
“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?
“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?
“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.
“Greek”: Are there documents?
“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson`

GrumPy

dj jarvis wrote: »

watch the channel on sky , they have it on loop twenty minutes ago

its a long distance shot of nothing , then an explosion , as the plane hits the ground

Oh yeah, that wasn't great.

IvyTheTerrible

GrumPy wrote: »

Oh yeah, that wasn't great.

And it's important to see "better" footage of the impact, why, exactly?

gandalf

comongethappy wrote: »

They know that they have made a big mistake.... They are just trying to divert blame.

Who the Ukrainians or the Separatists?

Given the Separatists have not been operating any air assets I would highly doubt that the Ukrainians were actively preparing to use surface to air missiles and they definitely wouldn't use them on the Russians as that would hand the Russians the excuse to hit them hard.

On the other hand the Ukrainian forces are using air power and the Separatists have shown their willingness to use these kinds of weapons and have shot down two Ukrainian planes in the last few days. A Pro-Russian source on Twitter tweeted just before the Malaysian plane was reported missing that they shot down a Ukrainian Government plane and then deleted the tweet when it became apparent that it wasn't.

beks101

This is sad and eerie

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/mh17-passenger-joked-about-disappearing-plane

Banjo String

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

And it's important to see "better" footage of the impact, why, exactly?

I would hope the poster meant the video wasn't great in the context that it wasn't pleasant to watch.

IvyTheTerrible

Banjo String wrote: »

I would hope the poster meant the video wasn't great in the context it wasn't pleasant to watch.

Ah I didn't think of it like that. I would hope so too.

ive only just heard what happened can someone sum it up ?

Too Tough To Die

beks101 wrote: »

This is sad and eerie

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/mh17-passenger-joked-about-disappearing-plane

Like something from an Alanis Morisette song.

beks101

Senior US officials are confirming it was shot down by a surface to air missile.

Looking likely it was a Buk. Apparently Associated Press reported earlier this week that it had seen a Buk system on the ground in a separatist-controlled area of eastern Ukraine.

shamrock55

Those poor poor people, this is truely shocking and disturbing, yet nobody will pay for it, this world just sucks, this tradgedy along with whats going on in gaza just puts my head in a spin:(

GrumPy

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

And it's important to see "better" footage of the impact, why, exactly?

I didn't say it was important. I was curious if there was footage of actual impact, to confirm if most of the plane broke up mid air; or the plane simply hit the ground. Pure human curiosity.
I personally wouldn't capture any footage myself out of respect, but I'm almost certainly going to consume if it it's posted - sue me. Maybe that's just as bad? Go figure.

_Kaiser_

First off and most importantly, condolences to the families of the dead this evening - people who did nothing wrong than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This thread however shows exactly why too much social media and instant news is a dangerous thing:

- Rampant unvouched speculation that instantly gains legs.. globally!

- A rush from "journalists" and random people to outdo each other with horribly graphic pictures on Twitter and such

- A shocking naivety of many people. It's a dangerous lawless combat zone and people expect the local equivalent of the Gardai to be doing traffic control and sticking up tape to cordon the area off

A lot of innocent people have been killed tonight and yet the main focus seems to be who'll get the biggest scoop, viral social media post/pic, or most thanked post.

I realise this is the world we live in, but it's kinda sobering at the same time if you consider it from the perspective of what it says about our "evolved" societies.

gandalf

They are now reporting that there were 80 children on board MH17

loh_oro

Truly horrific, if Russia was responsible it cannot go un-answered. A truly despicable act and heart goes out to all affected

El_Dangeroso

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

A lot of innocent people have been killed tonight and yet the main focus seems to be who'll get the biggest scoop, viral social media post/pic, or most thanked post.

I realise this is the world we live in, but it's kinda sobering at the same time if you consider it from the perspective of what it says about our "evolved" societies.

Or, you know, the people posting on this thread are shocked at this tragedy and are naturally looking for information with which to make sense of this horrible event.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a climbing up on a nice big high-horse.

beks101

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

First off and most importantly, condolences to the families of the dead this evening - people who did nothing wrong than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This thread however shows exactly why too much social media and instant news is a dangerous thing:

- Rampant unvouched speculation that instantly gains legs.. globally!

- A rush from "journalists" and random people to outdo each other with horribly graphic pictures on Twitter and such

- A shocking naivety of many people. It's a dangerous lawless combat zone and people expect the local equivalent of the Gardai to be doing traffic control and sticking up tape to cordon the area off

A lot of innocent people have been killed tonight and yet the main focus seems to be who'll get the biggest scoop, viral social media post/pic, or most thanked post.

I realise this is the world we live in, but it's kinda sobering at the same time if you consider it from the perspective of what it says about our "evolved" societies.

This isn't a Condolences thread, it's a thread about a large and significant breaking news story of which any solid facts have yet to be established and evidence via social media, be it real or fake, is slowly piecing together the pieces of this jig saw.

It goes without saying this is a tragedy of epic proportions and that almost 300 innocent people have lost their lives this afternoon is the main theme throughout the 20-odd pages of this thread.

People, myself included, are following this thread as well as many other sources to try to understand the gravity of what has happened. One of the strengths of this forum IMO during such global news stories.

If it's not to your taste, don't bother reading it.

bilston

Seems no Americans were on board which maybe eases potential tensions between the US and Russia. That said a lot of EU nationals killed. 154 Dutch, 6 British, 4 French and some others.

Tonight feels a little eerily like the evening of 9/11. The consequences are potentially enormous.

RIP to those killed.

Meglamonia

bilston wrote: »

Seems no Americans were on board which maybe eases potential tensions between the US and Russia. That said a lot of EU nationals killed. 154 Dutch, 6 British, 4 French and some others.

Tonight feels a little eerily like the evening of 9/11. The consequences are potentially enormous.

RIP to those killed.

There were 23 Americans? Could be wrong.

mickmackey1

bilston wrote: »

Seems no Americans were on board which maybe eases potential tensions between the US and Russia. That said a lot of EU nationals killed. 154 Dutch, 6 British, 4 French and some others.

That's not the full list.

comongethappy

bilston wrote: »

Seems no Americans were on board

Your right.... Except for the 23 US passport holders who boarded as per the airlines own manifest.

You were close though...

Lingua Franca

beks101 wrote: »

People, myself included, are following this thread as well as many other sources to try to understand the gravity of what has happened. One of the strengths of this forum IMO during such global news stories.

Further to this, this has indirectly affected at least two people on the forum (the guy who avoided the flight and myself), and both of us are in countries where most of the news and discussion is not in our first language.

If it's not to your taste, don't bother reading it.

bilston

Meglamonia wrote: »

There were 23 Americans? Could be wrong.

That was reported earlier but VP of Malaysia Airlines Europe went through the manifest in nationality terms and didn't mention any American passengers. 154 Dutch, 27 Australian, 23 Malaysian, 11 Indonesian, 6 UK, 4 France plus some Germans and a Canadian. He did say there were others whose nationality he didn't know so maybe they are Americans.

bilston

comongethappy wrote: »

Your right.... Except for the 23 US passport holders who boarded as per the airlines own manifest.

You were close though...

Only repeating what the VP of Malaysian Airlines Europe said so as things stand I'm close enough mate.