Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

seamus

asherbassad wrote: »

And what of those who preempted the report by over a year? Those like John Kerry who stated that he had evidence that Russia was responsible but wouldn't show any of that evidence. His own intelligence people knew he was talking through his ass. What about his "bias"? Do you have anything to say about that?

I'm not discussing it with John Kerry. Of course he has bias. We're not even discussing Kerry, we're talking about the Dutch report, which has nothing to do with Kerry.

Why did he make a statement on it a year ago? Because he was the US secretary of state and was asked to give a reaction, so used the opportunity to have a go at the Russians.

asherbassad

seamus wrote: »

You seem pretty confident of this.

Interesting that you accuse a report of bias before it's even been published. Surely if you were actually interested in the truth you would at least be willing to give the report an objective read-through first?

Even if the report was biased, you have already revealed your own bias by pre-empting the contents of a report which hasn't been published. You have no interest in the truth on this issue, only in convincing yourself that Russia couldn't have possibly been involved.

And as you can see, everything I predicted in the report has turned out to be true. No evidence of anything, no blame, nothing just that a missile brought it down.

This could have been proven an hour after the crash with satellite and radar imagery. The whole investigation was a time-buying farce.

Case closed. Burn the tower comms. conversations. Melt down the black boxes. Erase US satellite images. Throw the autopsy reports in a shredder.

Russia did it. And if you disagree you're a tinfoil hat wearing Putinbot.

If that's a satisfactory outcome for you seamus then you should be embarrassed.

Gatling

Wonder what happened to the Russian radar image and files that proved 2 Ukrainian Su 24s shot down MH17,

Then the Ukrainian Mig 29 that they could prove shot down MH17,

asherbassad

seamus wrote: »

I'm not discussing it with John Kerry. Of course he has bias. We're not even discussing Kerry, we're talking about the Dutch report, which has nothing to do with Kerry.

Why did he make a statement on it a year ago? Because he was the US secretary of state and was asked to give a reaction, so used the opportunity to have a go at the Russians.

I brought up Kerry because you accused me of preemptive bias when this idiot claimed to have water-tight evidence well before the report was released or even an investigation conducted. Of course we're not discussing Kerry but if you're going to have a go at me for alleged bias then you should have a go at everyone for alleged bias.

weisses

asherbassad wrote: »

And as you can see, everything I predicted in the report has turned out to be true. No evidence of anything, no blame, nothing just that a missile brought it down.

This could have been proven an hour after the crash with satellite and radar imagery. The whole investigation was a time-buying farce.

Case closed. Burn the tower comms. conversations. Melt down the black boxes. Erase US satellite images. Throw the autopsy reports in a shredder.

Russia did it. And if you disagree you're a tinfoil hat wearing Putinbot.

If that's a satisfactory outcome for you seamus then you should be embarrassed.

You seem to be very confused

Gatling

Almost forgot about the Ukrainian paratroopers jumping out of MH17 and the apparently strangled passengers on board

gandalf

asherbassad wrote: »

And as you can see, everything I predicted in the report has turned out to be true. No evidence of anything, no blame, nothing just that a missile brought it down.

You are aware that from day one this report was never going apportion blame aren't you ?

It's mandate was to confirm what took MH17 out of the sky and it has done that.

The criminal report which is due out next year will determine who is to blame or most likely to blame so I would keep your gunpowder dry until then.

weisses

Biggest conclusion regarding blame is towards Ukraine for not closing its airspace

asherbassad

weisses wrote: »

You seem to be very confused

I pointed out earlier in a post that blame will not be apportioned in the report but that the blanks would be filled in by those with "active" imaginations.

You seem very selective.

gandalf

weisses wrote: »

Biggest conclusion regarding blame is towards Ukraine for not closing its airspace

Yep they have to take some responsibility. I was absolutely surprised when it was revealed that planes were overflying this area before this event given that a number of planes were shot down in the weeks preceding this event.

It doesn't mitigate the people who "pressed the button" from the ultimate blame but its is something that the Ukrainian authorities and the airlines in question have to take responsibility for.

weisses

asherbassad wrote: »

I pointed out earlier in a post that blame will not be apportioned in the report but that the blanks would be filled in by those with "active" imaginations.

I understand ... just as you did

No evidence of anything, no blame, nothing just that a missile brought it down

asherbassad wrote: »

You seem very selective.

I refer to the waffle in post 3787

asherbassad

gandalf wrote: »

You are aware that from day one this report was never going apportion blame aren't you ?

It's mandate was to confirm what took MH17 out of the sky and it has done that.

The criminal report which is due out next year will determine who is to blame or most likely to blame so I would keep your gunpowder dry until then.

If the report could have apportioned blame it would have done so. That the area from where this missile was supposed to have been fired is cited as 320 sq km is truly remarkable. That's an area 16k by 10k. And yet wasn't there suppose to have been a photo showing a vapour trail. Walk over to where that vapour trail started and shove a stick in the ground and you've narrowed the point of origin down to....I don't know....16 INCHES by 10 INCHES. Better still, give your satellite images to the Dutch investigators. That should narrow the launch area down to something a little more precise than something twice the size of Manhattan.

The report is a farce. All it does is regurgitate the same stuff from a year ago with no evidence of anything, as I predicted. But I suppose some people don't really need evidence

suicide_circus

asherbassad wrote: »

If the report could have apportioned blame it would have done so. That the area from where this missile was supposed to have been fired is cited as 320 sq km is truly remarkable. That's an area 16k by 10k. And yet wasn't there suppose to have been a photo showing a vapour trail. Walk over to where that vapour trail started and shove a stick in the ground and you've narrowed the point of origin down to....I don't know....16 INCHES by 10 INCHES. Better still, give your satellite images to the Dutch investigators. That should narrow the launch area down to something a little more precise than something twice the size of Manhattan.

The report is a farce. All it does is regurgitate the same stuff from a year ago with no evidence of anything, as I predicted. But I suppose some people don't really need evidence

Calm yourself commrad

weisses

asherbassad wrote: »

The report is a farce. All it does is regurgitate the same stuff from a year ago with no evidence of anything, as I predicted. But I suppose some people don't really need evidence

You do realize they just gave a summary ..all the evidence is in the report itself .. which they referred to all the time

Did you read the whole report already ?

Gatling

Some people obviously don't understand the Technical report vs Criminal investigation.

asherbassad

weisses wrote: »

Biggest conclusion regarding blame is towards Ukraine for not closing its airspace

That's basically a sop. It's a tsk-tsk at someone to deflect from the sheer lack of credibility of the report. It's a pathetic maneuvre akin to someone using the "let's agree to disagree" get-out clause in an argument when they've painted themselves into a corner.

Gatling

And the conspiracy's roll on and on and on ,

I predict some toys getting thrown

seamus

asherbassad wrote: »

And yet wasn't there suppose to have been a photo showing a vapour trail.

There was? Did you give this to the crash investigators?

You seem to be getting confused here between what various speculators, politicians and other parties have said they have, and the actual evidence obtained by the Dutch investigation.

And as you can see, everything I predicted in the report has turned out to be true. No evidence of anything, no blame, nothing just that a missile brought it down.

If that's a satisfactory outcome for you seamus then you should be embarrassed.

It's a satisfactory outcome of an air crash investigation. They have clearly been very thorough and very careful to forensically analyse what happened and piece together the incident.

Although you might say, "big whoop, a missile brought it down, we knew that", an objective investigation is vital, not least because it gives us better information to allow us to make better aviation decisions in future. Like closing the airspace above a conflict zone.

I'm actually embarrassed for you. You seem to be on this crusade to shout down anyone who comments on this, regardless of what their position or point is. Perhaps if you removed your own personal investment in it, you might be able to discuss it objectively.

asherbassad

weisses wrote: »

You do realize they just gave a summary ..all the evidence is in the report itself .. which they referred to all the time

Did you read the whole report already ?

Ah, gotcha....all the evidence. So we'll see the autopsy reports of the crew with evidence of Buk shrapnel having pierced their bodies? We'll see transcripts of the tower communications and also stills of US satellite images, correct?

gandalf

asherbassad wrote: »

If the report could have apportioned blame it would have done so. That the area from where this missile was supposed to have been fired is cited as 320 sq km is truly remarkable. That's an area 16k by 10k. And yet wasn't there suppose to have been a photo showing a vapour trail. Walk over to where that vapour trail started and shove a stick in the ground and you've narrowed the point of origin down to....I don't know....16 INCHES by 10 INCHES. Better still, give your satellite images to the Dutch investigators. That should narrow the launch area down to something a little more precise than something twice the size of Manhattan.

The report is a farce. All it does is regurgitate the same stuff from a year ago with no evidence of anything, as I predicted. But I suppose some people don't really need evidence

Again just to point out to you that the report was a technical report. The purpose of this report was to confirm what took MH17 out of the sky and to confirm whether the passengers and crew were conscious or not during their plummet to earth.

It has done that job.

The CRIMINAL REPORT is due out next year and they is the one where they will point the finger at the culprits or most likely culprits.

asherbassad

seamus wrote: »

There was? Did you give this to the crash investigators?

You seem to be getting confused here between what various speculators, politicians and other parties have said they have, and the actual evidence obtained by the Dutch investigation.

It's a satisfactory outcome of an air crash investigation. They have clearly been very thorough and very careful to forensically analyse what happened and piece together the incident.

Although you might say, "big whoop, a missile brought it down, we knew that", an objective investigation is vital, not least because it gives us better information to allow us to make better aviation decisions in future. Like closing the airspace above a conflict zone.

I'm actually embarrassed for you. You seem to be on this crusade to shout down anyone who comments on this, regardless of what their position or point is. Perhaps if you removed your own personal investment in it, you might be able to discuss it objectively.

But is this report supposed to be full or not? Do you see what I'm getting at? Is there supposed to be other investigations where the hidden evidence will be brought to light. Evidence that proves that the plane was brought down by a BUK and where it was launched from? This reports doesn't do that. It only says that. I want to see evidence. Is that all going to come out in the criminal investigation? All the autopsy reports, all the metallurgical evidence, all the satellite images? Will eyewitnesses be taken into consideration in that investigation no matter how ignorant and countrybumpkin-esque people paint them as being?

I don't know why you're embarrassed for me seamus. This report shows nothing. It says nothing except Ukraine should have closed its airspace. It proves nothing. It's a whitewash.

All I get from it is "mistakes were made....let's move on."

Like I said before, if that's acceptable to you then you should be embarrassed. But for yourself, not me.

asherbassad

gandalf wrote: »

Again just to point out to you that the report was a technical report. The purpose of this report was to confirm what took MH17 out of the sky and to confirm whether the passengers and crew were conscious or not during their plummet to earth.

It has done that job.

The CRIMINAL REPORT is due out next year and they is the one where they will point the finger at the culprits or most likely culprits.

And who will be conducting this criminal report exactly? And will all the evidence be made public or will it just be another "XYZ is culpable."?

gandalf

Here is a video based on the report produced by the Dutch Safety Board

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGm00TdqirY

seamus

asherbassad wrote: »

All I get from it is "mistakes were made....let's move on."

That's in essence what a technical investigation of an air accident does. It accurately pieces together what happened, picks out the mistakes that were made and makes recommendations on how to prevent these mistakes from occurring in future.

The accident investigation would involve identifying the type and location of the missile, as this would inform the nature of how ATC should have responded, but deciding who fired it is outside of the scope of accident investigators as it is ultimately not relevant.

Clearly you're the only one who was expecting more from this report than it was ever going to deliver.

Evidence? http://www.safetyboard.nl/

Go to "Appendices" a tonne of evidence there including satellite imagery and ATC transcripts.

gandalf

asherbassad wrote: »

And who will be conducting this criminal report exactly? And will all the evidence be made public or will it just be another "XYZ is culpable."?

No the answer is who is carrying out the investigation. You seem very poorly informed about this subject.

The criminal investigation into the downing of MH17 is being led by the Public Prosecution Service of the Dutch Ministry of Justice. This is logical as most of the murdered were Dutch citizens.

https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-crash/

weisses

asherbassad wrote: »

Ah, gotcha....all the evidence. So we'll see the autopsy reports of the crew with evidence of Buk shrapnel having pierced their bodies? We'll see transcripts of the tower communications and also stills of US satellite images, correct?

I don't know I haven't read the report ... Its just out .... Can you state its not in there ?

asherbassad

gandalf wrote: »

Again just to point out to you that the report was a technical report. The purpose of this report was to confirm what took MH17 out of the sky and to confirm whether the passengers and crew were conscious or not during their plummet to earth.

It has done that job.

The CRIMINAL REPORT is due out next year and they is the one where they will point the finger at the culprits or most likely culprits.

And gandalf, if this was a technical report and it basically says nothing that wasn't said a year ago.....I'm guessing that what's in this report was concluded/agreed upon/whatever quite some time ago then why did the UN try to take over this investigation just a couple of months ago and drag out the release date indefinitely?

What makes it all the more shambolic is that there is evidence out there that could prove who was responsible or exonerate the heretofore accused. That evidence is being suppressed. I say let's see ALL the evidence. Don't withhold ANY of it. But the handful on this thread who want to point the finger are quite happy for evidence to be hidden or even destroyed if it preserves their position.

So I want no evidence hidden.
Others are happy to ignore suppressed evidence.

Who is being biased and who is being impartial?

asherbassad

weisses wrote: »

I don't know I haven't read the report ... Its just out .... Can you state its not in there ?

You think the Ukrainian secret service quickly seized tower communication recordings and gagged staff on the day of the crash just so they could hold onto it for this report?

Likewise with satellite imagery and autopsies?

gandalf

OK I am going to try and say this for you again so you can try to understand it asher. There are two investigations. One is a technical one and the other is the criminal one. Today's report is from the technical investigation.

Actually the explanation from the Dutch Criminal investigators website demarcates them very clearly.

On July 17th 2014 a disaster occurred with Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine. The plane was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. On board were 283 passengers and 15 crew members. Among the passengers were 196 Dutch nationals.

There are two investigations into the cause of the downing of MH17. A safety investigation and a criminal investigation.

The safety investigation is carried out by the Dutch Safety Board (Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid). The aim of the investigation by the Dutch Safety Board is to determine the cause of the crash and to make recommendations in order to prevent reoccurrence of the disaster in the future.

The criminal investigation is conducted by the international investigation team, the so-called Joint Investigation Team (JIT). In the JIT the Netherlands Public Prosecutor’s Office and the Dutch National Police work together with police and judicial authorities of Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine. The purpose of the criminal investigation is to establish the facts, identify those responsible for the crash and to collect evidence which can be used in court.

https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-crash/

asherbassad

weisses wrote: »

I don't know I haven't read the report ... Its just out .... Can you state its not in there ?

Here's you go. Get reading.

A lot of my Dutch friends don't have the slightest confidence in this report.

http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/report-mh17-crash-en.pdf