Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

smurfjed

The aircraft was above the closed airspace and flying in operational airspace.

Jamie2K9, that NOTAM doesnt show any altitudes and the airway goes up to about FL500. So can i ask why you think that it was above the closed airspace?

sudden decompression at that altitude would have meant instant death.

Do you have a reference for this? We fly a lot higher than this and we certainly do not expect certain death if we lose a window.

TheDriver

I watched liveleak video after reading this......bit of a mistake so wouldn't encourage anyone to see it.

Bob24

jelenka wrote: »

There were some newspapers ( russian and foreign ) reporting that Putins plane might have been the target. I'm sorry I can't post any links , wouldn't let me as I am new .( always browse , rarely comment)
. I honestly find it hard to believe that it was pro russians that shot the plane , yes , they did shoot a few low flying military ukrainian aircraft , but considering there is a 24-7 war in those areas , this passenger plane going down is the last thing they need .
As it was shot down in the area , it is obvious the finger would point at pro russians , so to me it could have been done by ukrainians.
Anyone saying that ukrainians dont have the ammunition or training to shoot down plane at 10km , in 2001 they accidentally shot down a plane full of russian israelis over black sea , nearly 100 people died.

. And how quickly they came out with apparently intercepted phone calls between the " terrorists " and screen shots of the rebels celebrating bringing down the plane .

Because it is not in their interest doesn't mean they didn't do it.

goat2

when they were naming the numbers of people from Australia, Germany, New Nealand, Britain, and other countries, on sky news,
i don't think that they mentioned passengers on board from Russia, i may be wrong,

how would they those who shot down this aircraft know that there were no Russian on board,

Professional Griefer

TheDriver wrote: »

I watched liveleak video after reading this......bit of a mistake so wouldn't encourage anyone to see it.

Generally you'd be better of avoiding liveleak, loads of death videos and awful stuff.

comongethappy

jelenka wrote: »

. I honestly find it hard to believe that it was pro russians that shot the plane .

Well, when the rebel leadership boast about shooting down a plane, only to hastily try to cover their tracks..... Its hard to take their side.

What happened to the plane they claimed to shoot down I wonder?
If it wasn't MH17.... What was it?

diomed

jelenka wrote: »

There were some newspapers ( russian and foreign ) reporting that Putins plane might have been the target. I'm sorry I can't post any links , wouldn't let me as I am new .( always browse , rarely comment)
. I honestly find it hard to believe that it was pro russians that shot the plane , yes , they did shoot a few low flying military ukrainian aircraft , but considering there is a 24-7 war in those areas , this passenger plane going down is the last thing they need .
As it was shot down in the area , it is obvious the finger would point at pro russians , so to me it could have been done by ukrainians.
Anyone saying that ukrainians dont have the ammunition or training to shoot down plane at 10km , in 2001 they accidentally shot down a plane full of russian israelis over black sea , nearly 100 people died.

. And how quickly they came out with apparently intercepted phone calls between the " terrorists " and screen shots of the rebels celebrating bringing down the plane .

Are you Russian?

gandalf

comongethappy wrote: »

Though (personally) I think the missile system was captured by the rebels from the Ukrainian army..... Rebel leaders were boasting about its capture.
The Ukrainian gov seem embarrassed to admit it.

I agree with you. They reported capturing a system like this 2 weeks ago. Although the details they posted about this got deleted yesterday as well.

I think the Pro-Russian Separatists are going to be in for a very hard time in the near future if its confirmed one of their fingers pressed the button. Putin will have no choice but to abandon them unless he wants Russia facing severe sanctions and become a pariah and lose events like the World Cup in 2018. I can see the Ukrainians getting help from some Western Governments in "resolving" the situation in the East.

Duggy747

jelenka wrote: »

I honestly find it hard to believe that it was pro russians that shot the plane ,

The post at 17:50 from their leader which was then immediately deleted but was archived.

comongethappy

gandalf wrote: »

I think the Pro-Russian Separatists are going to be in for a very hard time in the near future if its confirmed one of their fingers pressed the button. Putin will have no choice but to abandon them unless he wants Russia facing severe sanctions and become a pariah and lose events like the World Cup in 2018. I can see the Ukrainians getting help from some Western Governments in "resolving" the situation in the East.

Personally I think the status quo will remain.
Maybe more sanctions..... Not much else though.

gandalf

jelenka wrote: »

. I honestly find it hard to believe that it was pro russians that shot the plane , yes , they did shoot a few low flying military ukrainian aircraft , but considering there is a 24-7 war in those areas , this passenger plane going down is the last thing they need .

Not true about only shooting down low flying aircraft though.

On the 14th of July 2014, a Ukranian an-26 was shot down above east Ukraine whist flying at an altitude of 6,500m (21,325ft).

3 days before MH17 was taken down, hmmm interesting.

Banjo String

goat2 wrote: »

when they were naming the numbers of people from Australia, Germany, New Nealand, Britain, and other countries, on sky news,
i don't think that they mentioned passengers on board from Russia, i may be wrong,

how would they those who shot down this aircraft know that there were no Russian on board,

They prob thought it was a Ukrainian military plane.

jelenka

comongethappy wrote: »

Well, when the rebel leadershipboast about shooting down a plane, only to hastily try to cover their tracks..... Its hard to take their side.

What happened to the plane they claimed to shoot down I wonder?
If it wasn't MH17.... What was it?

Again, sorry I cant provide any links , but at the end of the day it was only a screenshot , they havent even confirmed if it was from his official page , could have been anyone using his name , I never believe pictures as much since the propaganda on both sides is insane .
Anyway he claimed it was an26 they shot down , if it was such sophisticated weapon used to target the plane , hardly you could mix an26 and boeing 777.

jelenka

diomed wrote: »

Are you Russian?

If it makes difference to you I'm half ukrainian half russian , part of my family is fom kiev .

comongethappy

jelenka wrote: »

if it was such sophisticated weapon used to target the plane , hardly you could mix an26 and boeing 777.

I doubt either of us are familiar enough with the BUK SAM system to make that judgement.

It seems though you are wrong...
Someone did mix them up.

Care to tell us who?

gandalf

jelenka wrote: »

Again, sorry I cant provide any links , but at the end of the day it was only a screenshot , they havent even confirmed if it was from his official page , could have been anyone using his name , I never believe pictures as much since the propaganda on both sides is insane .
Anyway he claimed it was an26 they shot down , if it was such sophisticated weapon used to target the plane , hardly you could mix an26 and boeing 777.

Depends on the training the operator had. If they are not someone who has been properly trained then yes it is possible to make that kind of mistake.

Also bear in mind the Pro-Russian Separatists have taken a beating in recent weeks and have been pushed back. They are probably desperate to give the Ukrainian forces a bloody nose at every opportunity that presents itself. I believe this is what happened here.

seamus

jelenka wrote: »

Anyway he claimed it was an26 they shot down , if it was such sophisticated weapon used to target the plane , hardly you could mix an26 and boeing 777.

You could easily mix it up if you were an unqualified operator with only a couple of hours' instruction on it.

Do you not find it slightly odd that there seem to be so many videos of the actual aircraft falling from the sky - as if they expected for an aircraft to be hit at that exact time?

Duff

seamus wrote: »

You could easily mix it up if you were an unqualified operator with only a couple of hours' instruction on it.

Do you not find it slightly odd that there seem to be so many videos of the actual aircraft falling from the sky - as if they expected for an aircraft to be hit at that exact time?

Not really considering everyone and their dog has a phone capable of video capture these days.

Overflow

Interested Observer wrote: »

Looks like it's near the Polish border, not the Russian, if that's where it's gone down.

Very sad

What ?? Its clearly on the Ukraine/Russian border ?

Bob24

jelenka wrote: »

Anyway he claimed it was an26 they shot down , if it was such sophisticated weapon used to target the plane , hardly you could mix an26 and boeing 777.

As mentioned many times before, it takes some training and experience to use such a weapon properly. You and I could probably use it to shoot down random planes with a basic and quick training. But could we tell which kind of planes we are shooting? I don't know ...

No one knows what happened at this stage, but I think you are fooling yourself if you are ruling out an unintentional action from the pro Russian rebels.

the_syco

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Huge setback for AIDS/Activism


http://www.ibtimes.com/over-100-aids-researchers-including-leading-aids-expert-among-those-killed-mh17-crash-1632224

Any other sources? ibtimes.com comes out with crap alot of the time, although I have seen reports elsewhere of a couple of scientists that may been on the plane.

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

Hopefully they catch those responsible, and if it was Russain weapons supplied to the rebels (must have been pretty heavy weaponry to take out a plane at forty thousan feet) that they're suitably punished.

Seems they used a BUK-M2 (1st produced in 1979) which they got from a Ukraine military base they had raided on 29th June. It identifies the craft by the radar signature rather than the IFF code.

jelenka

Bob24 wrote: »

As mentioned many times before, it takes some training and experience to use such a weapon properly. You and I could probably use it to shoot down random planes with a basic and quick training. But could we tell which kind of planes we are shooting? I don't know ...

No one knows what happened at this stage, but I think you are fooling yourself if you are ruling out an unintentional action from the pro Russian rebels.

oh , I am not really , there is way to much propaganda to believe anything , if pro russians are proven to be the ones that pressed the button I hope that they answer for it . I wonder who gets the black box in this situation , if Kiev gets it , I for one won't believe their investigation as they could have tampered with it.

seamus

Duff wrote: »

Not really considering everyone and their dog has a phone capable of video capture these days.

I haven't seen any mobile phone footage so far of the plane coming down, only video camera footage. Amateur as it is, it's suspicious and would appear to be filmed by someone who knows what they're looking at - i.e. there's no surprise, they're not making any noise, etc.

bear1

In all honesty though, what is the most likely outcome from all of this?

Dr Strange

the_syco wrote: »

Any other sources? ibtimes.com comes out with crap alot of the time, although I have seen reports elsewhere of a couple of scientists that may been on the plane.

There are many here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/aids-researchers-among-dead-on-crashed-malaysian-jet-1.1870707

http://time.com/3003840/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-top-aids-researchers-killed-aids2014-mh17/

And the International Aids Society which is hosting the conference in Australia at the moment:

http://www.iasociety.org/

goat2

seamus wrote: »

You could easily mix it up if you were an unqualified operator with only a couple of hours' instruction on it.

Do you not find it slightly odd that there seem to be so many videos of the actual aircraft falling from the sky - as if they expected for an aircraft to be hit at that exact time?

you are right about the many videos, and also that we cannot hear anyone speak on them, make it look like they were on standby for something happening and waiting to capture it on video,

comongethappy

jelenka wrote: »

oh , I am not really , there is way to much propaganda to believe anything

What propaganda?

What we know:

- Rebels capture at least 1 BUK missile system.
- Rebels claim to shoot down Ukrainian military transporter
- Malaysian Airlines announce disappearance of MH17 in same area rebels claim to have "downed a bird".
- Flight MH17 found destroyed with all passengers dead.

I'm struggling to see the propaganda here?

On the flip side though, after this week reporting that the Ukrainian army crucified a child, Kremlin media tell us that Ukraine shot down MH17 intending to attack Putin hundreds of miles away.

aloyisious

RTE interview has a mention of the "rebels" having seized various rockets (incl BUK missile systems) from a Ukrainian base a few days ago and posting up pictures of them with the weapons, with the BUK system being shown off at several villages in the area of the "crash" site. Supposing that info to be true, it merely add's another finger pointing to the "rebels" faction as being the party responsible. Personally I believe that the downing of the Malaysian Aircraft is a war crime and the people who shot it down should be arrested and tried for war crimes against humanity. An excuse of "it was a mistake" must not be seen-as and treated as legitimate and must be thrown back in the faces of those offering it.

gandalf

jelenka wrote: »

oh , I am not really , there is way to much propaganda to believe anything , if pro russians are proven to be the ones that pressed the button I hope that they answer for it . I wonder who gets the black box in this situation , if Kiev gets it , I for one won't believe their investigation as they could have tampered with it.

Apparently the Pro-Russians have sent it Moscows way. Would you believe their interpretation of it or be confident that they wouldn't tamper with it?

According to the experts that were on the new channels yesterday they doubt that the black boxes will show anything other than a catastrophic event occurred to the plane if it was a missile strike anyway. Especially one from a Buk, it has a 70kg HE warhead.

Lord Trollington

bear1 wrote: »

In all honesty though, what is the most likely outcome from all of this?

Nothing.

Rightly or wrongly Europe and USA will sit on their hands.

Absolute scum who carried out this, nothing but.