Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

darkpagandeath

Tail Docker wrote: »

So a localised small-scale conflict escalates into a region-wide war involving superpowers? Sounds great. Big wars start out of little fights. I suggest Putin and Obama get thrown into an MMA ring with an axe each. We throttle the winner and everyone fecks back to what they were doing before it got shootey.

China would be the only country that would come close to being one. Russian military is a shadow of it former self. If they had no Nukes they probably would have been steam rolled by now.

Die russiche grenzen

Russia will continually cause trouble unless they receive a firm message that the west won't tolerate their behavour. Unfortunately the time has come for military action.

Tail Docker

Die russiche grenzen wrote: »

Russia will continually cause trouble unless they receive a firm message that the west won't tolerate their behavour. Unfortunately the time has come for military action.

Good lad. Your user name is only missing the "auf ketten" bit to be complete.

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

China would be the only country that would come close to being one. Russian military is a shadow of it former self. If they had no Nukes they probably would have been steam rolled by now.

Nah.

mickmackey1

Die russiche grenzen wrote: »

Russia will continually cause trouble unless they receive a firm message that the west won't tolerate their behavour. Unfortunately the time has come for military action.

Hopefully you'll be on the front line.

Die russiche grenzen

Tail Docker wrote: »

Good lad. Your user name is only missing the "auf ketten" bit to be complete.

I say fukc them, invade and destroy. Time for words is over.

Treat the locals well, don't repeat Hitler's mistakes. Iphones and designer jeans for all.

Preemptive action is necessary, military conflict between Russia and the EU is only a matter of time.

comongethappy

Die russiche grenzen wrote: »

Preemptive action is necessary, military conflict between Russia and the EU is only a matter of time.

No, its not a matter of time.

The Russian perma-president can only live so long.

And, if we are to armchair general for a moment, Russia isn't in the same league as the combined 28 EU nations militarily, so conflict is far far from likely.... Countries rarely engage in conflicts knowing they will lose.

Zed Bank

Can someone put this into perspective for me?

How many separatists are there? I've followed this story since Crimea, and people on here were laughing at first, saying the Ukrainian military would have dealt with them in a week. Surely local militia would be unable to shoot down an aircraft at that altitude without some tremendous hardware?

Also, how are these separatists being trained? If Russia is to be believed, they are not supporting the separatists in any way, surely after losing their stronghold of Slavyanks many rebels would have been displaced coupled with bad organization and low morale in the face of superior numbers and equipment many would just desert? Not to mention how if Russia is not publicly supporting them, why don't they feel like they have been abandoned?

I also fail to see what Putin has to gain here.

srsly78

They get lots of hardware from Russia, they also loot lots of gear from captured depots. Also bear in mind every male (and lots of the ladies) in that area of the world probably have undergone some kind of military training. Some of the older guys might even be veterans of the Chechen or Afghan conflicts.

darkpagandeath

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah.

Iraq had a massive army but no nukes look what happened to them.

RobertKK

Putin didn't want this airliner to be blown up, but presuming it is from Russia they got the anti air missile launcher and missiles from, then Russia does hold some responsibility as well as those who used the weapon.
Given the separatists seized Ukrainian military items earlier, there is a small possibility it is Ukrainian weaponry that got into the hands of the separatists.

It would appear to be one enormous mistake, and not like 9/11 where it was intentional to target civilian airliners.
No one in this current case had anything to gain by targeting civilians.

What it has created is deep sadness for all the victims, a huge mess both with how the crash site is being treated and from an international viewpoint.
The consequences resulting from the airplane attack need to be limited to a proper recovery, investigation and justice for the victims and their families - which doesn't involve anything stupid as suggested in this thread.

InTheTrees

Tail Docker wrote: »

So a localised small-scale conflict escalates into a region-wide war involving superpowers? Sounds great. Big wars start out of little fights. I suggest Putin and Obama get thrown into an MMA ring with an axe each.

Why Obama??? Isnt this between Ukraine and Russia?

comongethappy

Zed Bank wrote: »

Can someone put this into perspective for me?

How many separatists are there? I've followed this story since Crimea, and people on here were laughing at first, saying the Ukrainian military would have dealt with them in a week. Surely local militia would be unable to shoot down an aircraft at that altitude without some tremendous hardware?

I'd say 10,000+

- There are the old guard, hankering for the old communist days.
- There are the defectors from the Ukrainian army & navy, including many senior officers. (Those who haven't just gone home
- There are the new recruits from eastern cities.
- Then finally the Russian forces, GRU & special forces, probably in the low hundreds.

darkpagandeath

RobertKK wrote: »

Putin didn't want this airliner to be blown up, but presuming it is from Russia they got the anti air missile launcher and missiles from, then Russia does hold some responsibility as well as those who used the weapon.
Given the separatists seized Ukrainian military items earlier, there is a small possibility it is Ukrainian weaponry that got into the hands of the separatists.

It would appear to be one enormous mistake, and not like 9/11 where it was intentional to target civilian airliners.
No one in this current case had anything to gain by targeting civilians.

What it has created is deep sadness for all the victims, a huge mess both with how the crash site is being treated and from an international viewpoint.
The consequences resulting from the airplane attack need to be limited to a proper recovery, investigation and justice for the victims and their families - which doesn't involve anything stupid as suggested in this thread.

Problem is they have already been given heavy weapons and training/expertise to compete with the Ukrainian military. It's baffling that people think that massive standing army that started this whole thing off in the Crimea was just a bunch of locals. Local irregular troops would not have the sense to keep the Ukrainian military held up in their base’s. It would have kicked off if it was just irregular guys and they would have been taken out fairly fast by the Ukrainian army. The Crimea was a co-ordinated exercise.

Herb Powell

Die russiche grenzen wrote: »

I say fukc them, invade and destroy. Time for words is over.

Treat the locals well, don't repeat Hitler's mistakes. Iphones and designer jeans for all.

Preemptive action is necessary, military conflict between Russia and the EU is only a matter of time.

Rushing into war is beyond moronic.

And it's Die russischen Grenzen

InTheTrees

comongethappy wrote: »

And, if we are to armchair general for a moment, Russia isn't in the same league as the combined 28 EU nations militarily, so conflict is far far from likely.... Countries rarely engage in conflicts knowing they will lose.

Well Russia has taken Crimea so far and is now talking about splitting Ukraine into 2. And now they've shot down a plane full of innocent civilians from all over europe.
That sounds like an active conflict to me and the EU countries havent done anything at all.

Dithering and mumbling while they wait for the US to do it for them.

RobertKK

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Problem is they have already been given heavy weapons and training/expertise to compete with the Ukrainian military. It's baffling that people think that massive standing army that started this whole thing off in the Crimea was just a bunch of locals. Local irregular troops would not have the sense to keep the Ukrainian military held up in their base’s. It would have kicked off if it was just irregular guys and they would have been taken out fairly fast by the Ukrainian army. The Crimea was a co-ordinated exercise.

Which goes back to one mistake made by Khrushchev when he gave Crimea which was a part of Russia to Ukraine as a present thinking the Soviet Union would last forever.
It was easy to takeover Crimea as a vast majority in Crimea are Russian by heritage.
Yes, Russia participated and facilitated the annexation of Crimea, but it was never going to be a hard thing to do given the history of Crimea.

InTheTrees

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It's baffling that people think that massive standing army that started this whole thing off in the Crimea was just a bunch of locals.

We stuck our heads in the sand and hoped the Bully would be content to leave it at that if we didnt do anything to piss him off.

RobertKK

Herb Powell wrote: »

Rushing into war is beyond moronic.

And it's Die russischen Grenzen

Agree, I'm not a big fan of mushroom clouds.

darkpagandeath

RobertKK wrote: »

Agree, I'm not a big fan of mushroom clouds.

between the ballistic shield and other stuff would not worry to much, 1 EMP would take out most of their capabilities straight out. It's not the old days were they can compete. It's whether the west has the will to do it, would involve large occupation force. It's basically comes down to the will via loss of troops men materials.

Aidric

RobertKK wrote: »

The consequences resulting from the airplane attack need to be limited to a proper recovery, investigation and justice for the victims and their families - which doesn't involve anything stupid as suggested in this thread.

Agreed but reports from the crash scene thus far don't give much hope of that. international observers being shot at and the crash scene being compromised.
Further reports that body bags only arriving at the scene today, 3 days after the incident is an insult to the innocent victims. This whole thing is sickening to the core.

InTheTrees

darkpagandeath wrote: »

between the ballistic shield and other stuff would not worry to much

"The ballistic shield"???

You mean that white elephant president reagan used to divert funding to his cronies back in the 80's???

Funny.

And how exactly would an one "emp" take out the submarines armed with nukes?

Mr_Red

Edel Mahady was on my mind when i read she was killed on that flight.

Found out its my Aunties Niece today

RIP

Tail Docker

Herb Powell wrote: »

Rushing into war is beyond moronic.

And it's Die russischen Grenzen

Grammar Nazi.

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Iraq had a massive army but no nukes look what happened to them.

Bit of a difference between Iraq and Russia militarily and economically.

srsly78

darkpagandeath wrote: »

between the ballistic shield and other stuff would not worry to much, 1 EMP would take out most of their capabilities straight out. It's not the old days were they can compete. It's whether the west has the will to do it, would involve large occupation force. It's basically comes down to the will via loss of troops men materials.

How in the name of fsck can one post be so wrong? Are you a salesperson for a defense contractor or something?

There is no defense against modern ICBMs. Russia has disbanded many of it's older weapons, but has continued development of newer more capable ones. The expensive interception system is easily defeated by low tech decoys. The shield might defend against 1 missile, but any attack from Russia would consist of lots of missiles.

gandalf

LOL tanks isn't the answer here. Freezing and seizing the assets of Putins supporters is (and his if they can be identified), Extreme financial sanctions against the Russia economy is, stripping Russia of prestige events like the 2018 World Cup is.

Herb Powell

Tail Docker wrote: »

Grammar Nazi.

Gotta get it right, especially if you're advocating going there.

losthorizon

InTheTrees wrote: »

We stuck our heads in the sand and hoped the Bully would be content to leave it at that if we didnt do anything to piss him off.

We stuck our heads in the sand a few years ago with Georgia.

Tail Docker

losthorizon wrote: »

We stuck our heads in the sand a few years ago with Georgia.

Very true, look what happened there, she ended up plastered over every paper, billboard and magazine for ages.