Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

comongethappy

losthorizon wrote: »

We stuck our heads in the sand a few years ago with Georgia.

Yep, the precedent was already set with Georgia.

WakeUp

darkpagandeath wrote: »

between the ballistic shield and other stuff would not worry to much, 1 EMP would take out most of their capabilities straight out. It's not the old days were they can compete. It's whether the west has the will to do it, would involve large occupation force. It's basically comes down to the will via loss of troops men materials.

Because the Russians are just going to allow a large occupation force stroll into their territory . An emp won't take out their nuclear subs . don't forget the subs them alone could wreak a destruction that judging by your comment you can't even begin to comprehend . those people advocating a military response may eventually get their wish I think we've reached a cross roads that leads one of two ways . If it happens I hope youre ready for it.

Tail Docker

WakeUp wrote: »

Because the Russians are just going to allow a large occupation force stroll into their territory . An emp won't take out their nuclear subs . don't forget the subs them alone could wreak a destruction that judging by your comment you can't even begin to comprehend . those people advocating a military response may eventually get their wish I think we've reached a cross roads that leads one of two ways . If it happens I hope youre ready for it.

I think a snapshot of that lad with the accreditation around his neck and the fold stock ak ought to jolt a few people back to reality. The Russians are case hardened by war, they have had afghanistan, chechnya, the various baltic conflicts and a hard day to day life. The West has gone a bit softer than them. If the two butted heads, it would be messy. I'm guessing messier for us, tbh.

comongethappy

Tail Docker wrote: »

I think a snapshot of that lad with the accreditation around his neck and the fold stock ak ought to jolt a few people back to reality. The Russians are case hardened by war, they have had afghanistan, chechnya, the various baltic conflicts and a hard day to day life. The West has gone a bit softer than them. If the two butted heads, it would be messy. I'm guessing messier for us, tbh.

Generalisations tbh.

The Russian army is seen as a layer of competency & experience covering an ocean of poor training, pay, equipment & leadership.

Aside from Russia's top end troops, I would take the Irish infantry over his Russian counterpart all day.

Europe's larger professional army & superior navy & air force is more than a match for Russia.

JONJO THE MISER

Dont be surprised if putin goes into one of the baltic countries sooner or later, he knows the west is weak now and will keep on pushing.

comongethappy

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Dont be surprised if putin goes into one of the baltic countries sooner or later, he knows the west is weak now and will keep on pushing.

He wont attack a NATO country.

mickmackey1

comongethappy wrote: »

The Russian army is seen as a layer of competency & experience covering an ocean of poor training, pay, equipment & leadership.

That's what Hitler thought.

jelenka

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Dont be surprised if putin goes into one of the baltic countries sooner or later, he knows the west is weak now and will keep on pushing.

Erm , why would he do that ?

comongethappy

mickmackey1 wrote: »

That's what Hitler thought.

I'm unsure how many of the WW2 red army still serve?

mickmackey1

comongethappy wrote: »

I'm unsure how many of the WW2 red army still serve?

The WW3 red army will be pretty handy too, don't worry about that.

comongethappy

mickmackey1 wrote: »

The WW3 red army will be pretty handy too, don't worry about that.

I'm sure.... But the previous posters implication that European armies are inferior doesn't hold water.

srsly78

comongethappy wrote: »

I'm sure.... But the previous posters implication that European armies are inferior doesn't hold water.

Since the cold war ended western armies have disbanded a lot of their heavy gear (like tanks). That trend might be reversed.

WakeUp

Tail Docker wrote: »

I think a snapshot of that lad with the accreditation around his neck and the fold stock ak ought to jolt a few people back to reality. The Russians are case hardened by war, they have had afghanistan, chechnya, the various baltic conflicts and a hard day to day life. The West has gone a bit softer than them. If the two butted heads, it would be messy. I'm guessing messier for us, tbh.

Messy and everyone loses. The Russians know they can't win a direct conventional war outright with the west they know and understand this. war with Russia if such a thing ever happens will not be conventional it will be nuclear.

The_Valeyard

WakeUp wrote: »

Messy and everyone loses. The Russians know they can't win a direct conventional war outright with the west they know and understand this. war with Russia if such a thing ever happens will not be conventional it will be nuclear.

Wasn't this the opposite during the cold war?

srsly78

Yes. Russia today is only a shadow of the USSR, they still got lots of nukes tho. American armed forces are also much reduced since then, but america has a much bigger economy.

There has been an economic war going on for quite some time, arguably this is what has caused the whole mess in Ukraine.

InTheTrees

In World war Two Hitler was fighting the USSR which included Belarus, Lithuania, latvia, and even ukraine. A huge amount of people that today want nothing to do with russia.

Today the population of Russia is 142 million. Thats less than France and Germany.

Putin

srsly78 wrote: »

American armed forces are also much reduced since then, but america has a much bigger economy.

The American economy is based on delusion. China is America's biggest banker and they roughly own about $1.3 trillion dollars of US debt. More importantly, the US is not energy independent. Russia however is awash with vast energy reserves.

srsly78

Yes but the point you miss is that $1.3 trillion is peanuts to america. Also shale gas has gone a long way to reduce american energy imports.

The dollar is the reserve currency of the world, no matter what various silly youtube videos may claim. Germany has a higher GDP than Russia. Some individual american states have economies approaching the size of Russia's. It's not even close.

InTheTrees

Putin wrote: »

The American economy is based on delusion. China is America's biggest banker and they roughly own about $1.3 trillion dollars of US debt. More importantly, the US is not energy independent. Russia however is awash with vast energy reserves.

Ha ha ha... nice one.

Russia shoots down a civilian jet plane over ukraine killing 300 people from all over the world and you feel the need to boast about how great russia is compared to...

....the USA??

I dont get the connection??

InTheTrees

Putin wrote: »

The American economy is based on delusion. China is America's biggest banker and they roughly own about $1.3 trillion dollars of US debt. More importantly, the US is not energy independent. Russia however is awash with vast energy reserves.

Russia just signed away most of its oil to China at cut rate prices because nobody else will deal with them because they're untrustworthy at best. They used the pipeline to ukraine as blackmail.

And do you know which country is the worlds largest oil exporter?

comongethappy

Putin wrote: »

The American economy is based on delusion. China is America's biggest banker and they roughly own about $1.3 trillion dollars of US debt. More importantly, the US is not energy independent. Russia however is awash with vast energy reserves.

China holds 9% of US government debt, which I'm sure it would like to have paid back.

The US is just about energy independent

Russia's economy is only now just larger than Italy's & is a round of stiff sanctions away from serious trouble.
On the 1st day of sanctions last March, the Kremlin had to sell 10% of its gold just to save the rouble from collapse... That was on day 1.

The markets adjusted when they seen the west didn't follow up.

A struggling rouble has sent inflation up & economic growth for 2014 will be zero.
Russian bonds trade at some of the highest rates in the developed world (9%-14%), its not seen as a safe bet by investors.

Between march/April $70bn was taken from Russian banks & deposited in other countries.

This newly capitalist Russia is quite a delicate flower indeed.

The nations future being at the whim of the unaccountable president-in-perpetuity Putin doesn't help of course.

InTheTrees

comongethappy wrote: »

Russian bonds trade at some of the highest rates in the developed world, its not seen as a safe bet by investors.

You only have to look at their politics to know they're heading in a bad direction.

Putin is turning into one of those old school dictators who "wins" an election every few years and just keeps on going.

You'd be insane to invest in such a place, they're likely to confiscate all property or throw you in jail on any whim.

Havent they made making fun of putin a crime?

Rhys Essien

InTheTrees wrote: »

Ha ha ha... nice one.

Russia shoots down a civilian jet plane over ukraine killing 300 people from all over the world and you feel the need to boast about how great russia is compared to...

....the USA??

I dont get the connection??

Lets try and keep things a bit more accurate here.DRM or Donetsk Republic Militia as they call themselves shot down the plane with a missile launcher they captured from Ukrainian forces on June 29.

At least thats what the majority think so far.

InTheTrees

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Lets try and keep things a bit more accurate here.DRM or Donetsk Republic Militia as they call themselves shot down the plane with a missile launcher they captured from Ukrainian forces on June 29.

At least thats what the majority think so far.

Okay..I'll give "Russian supported separatists"....

This is a russian engineered conflict after all.

gandalf

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Lets try and keep things a bit more accurate here.DRM or Donetsk Republic Militia as they call themselves shot down the plane with a missile launcher they captured from Ukrainian forces on June 29.

At least thats what the majority think so far.

With a good chance that some of the crew consisted of Russians Special Forces or GRU.

comongethappy

InTheTrees wrote: »

Okay..I'll give "Russian supported separatists"....

This is a russian engineered conflict after all.

Indeed.

Its not fair to call Putin the intentional cause of this tragedy.

However this conflict in Ukraine starts & ends with Vladi & nowhere else does the greater blame fall more.

mickmackey1

comongethappy wrote: »

president-in-perpetuity Putin

If the Russian people say so, yes.

Just like Cameron and Merkel in the corrupt West (WMD anyone?)

You see you either support democracy or you don't, even if it provides a leader that doesn't suit.

WakeUp

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Wasn't this the opposite during the cold war?

I couldn't say for sure if it was the other way around but as other people have mentioned Russia and the old Soviet Union are quite different from a military point of view. When we talk about NATO or the West we are basically talking about the Americans in the main. The Americans are ahead of the Russians in most things military related that matter except for one - missile technology. It's what the Russians focused on at the end of the Cold War realising and having been shown they couldn't keep up or match the Americans in things like aeroplanes and their navy. Russian missile tech is really advanced and from their point of view the only thing they have to even up the playing field. in a direct confrontation with the West it would be the only thing that they have that might save them from what in all probability would be a certain defeat. and they know it too.

jimgoose

WakeUp wrote: »

I couldn't say for sure if it was the other way around but as other people have mentioned Russia and the old Soviet Union are quite different from a military point of view. When we talk about NATO or the West we are basically talking about the Americans in the main. The Americans are ahead of the Russians in most things military related that matter except for one - missile technology. It's what the Russians focused on at the end of the Cold War realising and having been shown they couldn't keep up or match the Americans in things like aeroplanes and their navy. Russian missile tech is really advanced and from their point of view the only thing they have to even up the playing field. in a direct confrontation with the West it would be the only thing that they have that might save them from what in all probability would be a certain defeat. and they know it too.

Except for the missile subs.

srsly78

And the tanks. And arguably the fighter planes after all the screwups with the new american jets :P