Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

comongethappy

mickmackey1 wrote: »

If the Russian people say so, yes.

Do we know that?

Vlad the Permanent changed the constitution without plebescite to extend the term of office by 50% & to remove term limits.

Then by all most impartial observations at the time, outright stole both the last presidential & parliamentary elections.

Subsequently Russian opposition of all stripes whether political or media have faced an all out assault from the Kremlin.

Now Russia is seen as one of the most authoritarian & free press curtailing nations on earth. (The committee to protect journalists referring to Russia as the 3rd most dangerous place for journalists in the world).

But yes.... Just like Mugabe keeps on winning... as does Putin... and he isn't about to let trivialities like fairness get in the way.

InTheTrees

mickmackey1 wrote: »

You see you either support democracy or you don't, even if it provides a leader that doesn't suit.

Well an important prerequisite of democracy is a free and open press.

How does freedom of the press compare between Russia and Germany and the UK?

And how do the elections compare?

It seems that putin is rewriting the russian constitution as he goes along. What office will he invent for himself next?

WakeUp

jimgoose wrote: »

Except for the missile subs.

Well yes but I was talking about a conventional war and I believe Russia would lose that though I didn't make that clear. the missiles on the subs definitely yes.

Bob24

mickmackey1 wrote: »

If the Russian people say so, yes.

Just like Cameron and Merkel in the corrupt West (WMD anyone?)

You see you either support democracy or you don't, even if it provides a leader that doesn't suit.

That is if you assume elections in Russia are held following the rules.

If used to work for a multinational company and had many Russian colleagues in Ireland, France, and Russia itself (all educated and successful professionals).

I couldn't understand why people were keeping voting for a man like Putin, as they must see he has full control over local media and is serving his friends interest before his country's - and I did ask them. Their answer was pretty much consistently: because Putin gets elected doesn't mean people voted for him.

I am not sure what to think about Russian elections, but within this particular group of people, they level of trust is pretty low and consistent (and from what I understand none of them bothers going to the polling station anymore).

mickmackey1

comongethappy wrote: »

....

If you genuinely believe that Putin doesn't have the support of a large majority of the Russian people, I'm just going to have to leave you with your delusions.

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well an important prerequisite of democracy is a free and open press.

How does freedom of the press compare between Russia and ... the UK?

Please don't hold up the UK press as an example to anything.

The Murdoch-dominated British press belongs nowhere but the sewer.

jimgoose

WakeUp wrote: »

Well yes but I was talking about a conventional war and I believe Russia would lose that though I didn't make that clear. the missiles on the subs definitely yes.

I'm referring to the NATO nuclear missile platform submarines that sit on the bottom of the ocean for years, coming and going as they please, and have done for years. This frightens the living lard out of Putin and his ilk, and well it might, rendering as it does everything else strategically irrelevant.

Putin

InTheTrees wrote: »

Ha ha ha... nice one.

Russia shoots down a civilian jet plane over ukraine killing 300 people

So Russia shot down a plane? When did you concluded your investigations? Did you examine the black boxes and is this just your interim findings?

InTheTrees wrote: »

you feel the need to boast about how great russia is compared to.........the USA?

Are you severely intoxicated because where did I boast how great Russia is? To repeat what I said, the US is massively in debt and they do not have enough strategic energy reserves. Seven key maritime shipping routes control the majority of the Wold's oil trade. The US is extremely dependent on these maritime routes and that's a bad handicap to have in a time of crisis. Russia is awash with strategic energy reserves and unlike the US, it is in a position to export them. So how this reality qualifies as boasting how?


Love this nonsense about war, who would win in a war? Mutually assured annihilation is the only outcome. But even looking at a conventional war. Western Nations have a soft military underbelly and lack the spine for the fight. The Americans were humiliated in Vietnam, embarrassed in Iraq and resurgent Taliban are ready to sweep to power once the Americans leave. So they have completed failed in Afghanistan. What the last decade has shown the world is, the latest high tech weaponry is no match against tough, resilient opponents with the guts for the fight. Napoleon and Hitler paid a price against the Russians. There is no tougher, more resilient nation than Russia. And I have no doubt the shiny armies of the West with their weak underbellies are very well aware of that.

Now that's enough of my speculating. I just want to see some sense prevail and hopefully we'll find out what happened the downed airliner. Amazing how Putin is blamed for tragic airline deaths, yet not a slur is cast on Obama. As his nations weapons supplied to the IDF, wiped another another innocent Palestinian family of 8 yesterday. And we don't need any investigations to establish that fact. Of course such reality doesn't suit the media spin or agenda, so best not say too much about it.

Tail Docker

srsly78 wrote: »

Yes but the point you miss is that $1.3 trillion is peanuts to america. Also shale gas has gone a long way to reduce american energy imports.

The dollar is the reserve currency of the world, no matter what various silly youtube videos may claim. Germany has a higher GDP than Russia. Some individual american states have economies approaching the size of Russia's. It's not even close.

Not hugely by choice. The way they are printing it, the dollar is headed for the sh1tter. The US has scrabbled, connived and manipulated to keep the dollar in its position, but they're running on empty and a lot of people want to go euro, go figure tbh, but that's reality.

jimgoose

Tail Docker wrote: »

Not hugely by choice. The way they are printing it, the dollar is headed for the sh1tter. The US has scrabbled, connived and manipulated to keep the dollar in its position, but they're running on empty and a lot of people want to go euro, go figure tbh, but that's reality.

Nixon binned the Gold Standard. Harry Truman had superseded it with the Plutonium Standard. Maynard-Keynes that, beee-yotch.

comongethappy

mickmackey1 wrote: »

If you genuinely believe that Putin doesn't have the support of a large majority of the Russian people, I'm just going to have to leave you with your delusions.

That's the point.... (The 'wooosh' noise is it going over your head).

Vlad could indeed have the majority support.
We will never know seeing as he has no intention of allowing a free & fair election again, not on his watch.

He very cleverly tapped into the Russian peoples desire to feel might in their nation again.
Something made easier to achieve with 99% control of the media & 100% control of all structures of power.
And made very easy when the controlled media tell the populace 24/7 that only Vladi can save them from the clutches of the west.

So I'm sure you will find he has high approval ratings.... Just like the Kim dynasty in N Korea enjoy..... But only the most loyal putinista would consider it a level playing field.

Aidric

comongethappy wrote: »

Something made easier to achieve with 99% control of the media & 100% control of all structures of power.
And made very easy when the controlled media tell the populace 24/7 that only Vladi can save them from the clutches of the west.

So I'm sure you will find he gas high approval ratings.... Just like the Kim dynasty in N Korea enjoy..... But only the most loyal putinista would consider it a level playing field.

Small insight further to this.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2014/07/putin-and-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-17.html?utm_source=tny&utm_campaign=generalsocial&utm_medium=twitter&mbid=social_twitter

InTheTrees

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Please don't hold up the UK press as an example to anything.

The Murdoch-dominated British press belongs nowhere but the sewer.

No no, dont imply for a single second that I'm some apologist for murdoch and fox news. The cause of most of the ills in western democracy in my opinion. A pure fcuking right wing evil.

I said how do they compare. Compare. how do they compare?

Thats not holding anyone up over anything at all.

InTheTrees

Putin wrote: »

yet not a slur is cast on Obama. As his nations weapons supplied to the IDF, wiped another another innocent Palestinian family of 8 yesterday.

Ah I see your problem;

This is the "OMG putin shot down an airliner" thread and not the "OMG Obama massacred another family" thread.

You need to go over to the "OMG Obama is anti-christ" thread is you want a sympathetic ear on that.

mickmackey1

InTheTrees wrote: »

I said how do they compare. Compare. how do they compare?

They compare in the sense I wouldn't wipe my ass with either of them.

To bed.

WakeUp

jimgoose wrote: »

I'm referring to the NATO nuclear missile platform submarines that sit on the bottom of the ocean for years, coming and going as they please, and have done for years. This frightens the living lard out of Putin and his ilk, and well it might, rendering as it does everything else strategically irrelevant.

Ok I see what you mean now. that works both ways though.

jelenka

Putin is most definitely supported by the nation , not all of it , plenty are against him , but majority are happy with him as their president . He made a lot of changes , rectified a lot of mess done by a drunkard president Eltsin , tax reforms , social stability etc .

About the plane , read today statement from rebels , that ukranian experts are in no rush collect the bodies, they seem to be busy making their " investigations " in kiev , leaving the bodies to rot . The temps are 28 degrees . Then they come out with " scores of bodies stolen by terrorists " crap , they are clearly being taken to nearby morgues .

Another pointd I'd like to make , while you keep saying russians are terrorists - yesterday and today kiev army has been bombing Lughansk , crèches, schools , buildings , estates , houses are destroyed . Peaceful civilians are being killed . My friends mother , sister and niece are siting in the hall of their apartment for nearly 2 days now , there are bodies scattered outside . Her sister went outside to a shop yesterday and a bomb exploded some distance from her , killing a few people , some were women .

Hundreds if not thousand or more peaceful civilians died and this is not mentioned on the news , kids , women , pensioners killed and kiev is insisting they are fighting with terrorists .

SeanW

Putin wrote: »

So Russia shot down a plane? When did you concluded your investigations? Did you examine the black boxes and is this just your interim findings?

Well, common logic tells us everything we need to know about this nasty business.

1. Russia has been involved with the trouble in the Ukraine to a certain extent.
2. The only people shooting off SAM rockets and bringing down aircraft over the Eastern Ukraine that day were Russian separatists, whether "native" to the area, or foreign mercenaries acting on orders from the Kremlin.
3. Rumour had it that the "rebels" (and I use that term very loosely, terrorists, mass-murderers, war criminals would be more approprate), already "recovered" the black box and have sent it to Moscow, instead of the black box' manfacturer which is normal practice in these cases.
   
   That pretty much guarantees that no impartial investion will occur and certain facts will never verifiably come to light.

Napoleon and Hitler paid a price against the Russians.

So to, it seems, have almost 300 innocent civilians, including a considerable number of children, holidaymakers, AIDS researchers ... Yeah, Russia is real tough alright. >_<

I just want to see some sense prevail and hopefully we'll find out what happened the downed airliner.

Actually, from the information we have its more or less clear: Russia, or Russian backed militants, fired on what was clearly a civilian airliner, killing everyone on board, and that they did so either intentionally, or with recklessness verging on intent.
The crash site has not been protected, and the black box may well be on it's way to a KGB FSB burial in Moscow.

ZeroThreat

SeanW wrote: »

Well, common logic tells us everything we need to know about this nasty business.

1. Russia has been involved with the trouble in the Ukraine to a certain extent.
2. The only people shooting off SAM rockets and bringing down aircraft over the Eastern Ukraine that day were Russian separatists, whether "native" to the area, or foreign mercenaries acting on orders from the Kremlin.
3. Rumour had it that the "rebels" (and I use that term very loosely, terrorists, mass-murderers, war criminals would be more approprate), already "recovered" the black box and have sent it to Moscow, instead of the black box' manfacturer which is normal practice in these cases.
   
   That pretty much guarantees that no impartial investion will occur and certain facts will never verifiably come to light.

So to, it seems, have almost 300 innocent civilians, including a considerable number of children, holidaymakers, AIDS researchers ... Yeah, Russia is real tough alright. >_<

Actually, from the information we have its more or less clear: Russia, or Russian backed militants, fired on what was clearly a civilian airliner, killing everyone on board, and that they did so either intentionally, or with recklessness verging on intent.
The crash site has not been protected, and the black box may well be on it's way to a KGB FSB burial in Moscow.

I doubt their Russians have any fear of a country as small as Netherlands either, so they're doing exactly what they want.

Tail Docker

I would have thought the Ukraine had their hands full dealing with the yet unresolved Chernobyl. No doubt, through all these new travails, that issue isn't being neglected at all. Much. Or anything. If that sarcophagus collapses again, one plane of dead might look trivial. The Ukraine - the gift that keeps on giving.

KELTICKNIGHTT

This will hurt Russia ..
It's sad to see how pro Russians removing bodies and keeping investigators away from.crash.
Makes them look more guilty and hiding something
Where's the black box ?
80 children killed

JONJO THE MISER

Glad to see a Dutch newspaper has pictures of the russian supported terrorist commanders with the front page heading, Murderers and putins picture should be there as well.

Firefox11

"You are only here because foreigners are dead. Where were you when our people were dying."

Unfortunately this statement has summed up this whole god damn mess this has caused as far as i am concerned.

These are the words from one of the "separatist pro Russian commanders" on site at the crash site in responce to a journalist.

While the shooting down of civilian aircraft and deaths are inexcusable and and proper investigation and justice needs to served here, the above statement is what has led to this point.

Inaction on both sides to resolve this crisis has lead us to this point and to these deaths and more.

What really worries me and would concern me is the complete denial and unwillingness of the Russians to face up to this and become involved in the resolution of this conflict on what is after all a foreign soil to their own.

Egginacup

This will sound like the most naive question...but if Russians shot down a Malaysian plane then why is it anybody's business except between Russia and Malaysia? Why are so many others involved

KELTICKNIGHTT

Egginacup wrote: »

This will sound like the most naive question...but if Russians shot down a Malaysian plane then why is it anybody's business except between Russia and Malaysia? Why are so many others involved

Where are the people from on the plane !
did you see they way they handling the body's ?
Think one is even irish living in Australia

Noo

Egginacup wrote: »

This will sound like the most naive question...but if Russians shot down a Malaysian plane then why is it anybody's business except between Russia and Malaysia? Why are so many others involved

Because citizens of many countries were killed. Its the duty of any half decent government to get involved when one of their citizens is murdered abroad.

deco nate

Their is a saying, don't feed the .....

Killer Wench

We have grown immune to the stories involving civilians on the ground, hiding in their home who are accidentally killed by mortar fire. Then there are those civilians high up in the air who are shot down by a militant group as a show of might. t's not simply that they it was a flight bound for Malaysian, the problem is that the plane was full of non-actors who were 30,000 feet above ground. That's true terrorism. So many of us rely on public transportation--whether its by plane, train, or city bus. Having militant groups target public transportation exposes all of our vulnerabilities.

Noo

deco nate wrote: »

Their is a saying, don't feed the .....

True. I didn't see it was a first post. Dammit.

On a related note though...the Malaysian authorities will welcome everyones involvement, they made such a balls of the last incident, cant imagine if theyd to deal with the russians themselves.

Egginacup

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Where are the people from on the plane !
did you see they way they handling the body's ?
Think one is even irish living in Australia

I agree, but is that relevant?
The outrage and calls for punishment against Russia don't seem to be coming from the governments of those on board nor even from the country whose plane this was.

It was shot down over a part of the world that nobody who is speaking loudest has any jurisdiction over.

I just find it odd that so many people outside of the Russians, Ukrainians and Malaysians are so vocal.

Should this not either cause tension or worse still war between Russia and Malaysia? Why are the rest of us so incensed?

Galwayguy35

jelenka wrote: »

Putin is most definitely supported by the nation , not all of it , plenty are against him , but majority are happy with him as their president . He made a lot of changes , rectified a lot of mess done by a drunkard president Eltsin , tax reforms , social stability etc .

About the plane , read today statement from rebels , that ukranian experts are in no rush collect the bodies, they seem to be busy making their " investigations " in kiev , leaving the bodies to rot . The temps are 28 degrees . Then they come out with " scores of bodies stolen by terrorists " crap , they are clearly being taken to nearby morgues .

Another pointd I'd like to make , while you keep saying russians are terrorists - yesterday and today kiev army has been bombing Lughansk , crèches, schools , buildings , estates , houses are destroyed . Peaceful civilians are being killed . My friends mother , sister and niece are siting in the hall of their apartment for nearly 2 days now , there are bodies scattered outside . Her sister went outside to a shop yesterday and a bomb exploded some distance from her , killing a few people , some were women .

Hundreds if not thousand or more peaceful civilians died and this is not mentioned on the news , kids , women , pensioners killed and kiev is insisting they are fighting with terrorists .

You read a statement from the rebels, yes I'm sure what they said would be 100% true all right.

The rebels wouldn't even let the investigators in to the site yesterday and eventually when they did they only had limited access and were surrounded by guys with guns the whole time.

Your post sounds like something RT would come out with.