Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Oystertime

Meglamonia wrote: »

Just not let the Russians do what they want here it's disgusting what's happening and in fact surreal in this day and age what's happening to the crash site.

How about remove the pro Russian separatists from Ukrain. If be necessary request BATH assistance. They're entitled to defend their borders.

suicide_circus

Invite the separatists to migrate to russia?

swiftblade

Skylinehead wrote: »

No, probably not. But you said that "a harder line needs to be taken", but short of invading Eastern Ukraine, what could they do?

That harder line can be more stringent economic blockades. I would like to at least see the crash site secure, but that won't happen unless there are boots on the ground, which I hope they don't have to do.

Son Of A Vidic

Larbre34 wrote: »

Ukraine should invite in a NATO group of paras and special forces to secure that crash site with gunships for close protection and Harriers and F-16s available from Govt territory if needed. ...........

.............. Ukraine and NATO need to be saying 'we're coming to clean up your mess, what the eff are you gonna do about it?'

What utter nonsense, this isn't some Tom Clancy novel we are talking about here. So leaving works of fiction aside, thankfully I think NATO is wise enough to avoid any confrontation with Russia.

Skylinehead

swiftblade wrote: »

That harder line can be more stringent economic blockades.

That's back to sanctions isn't it?

I would like to at least see the crash site secure, but that won't happen unless there are boots on the ground, which I hope they don't have to do.

NATO boots on the ground 50km from the Russian border will not end well.

ZeroThreat

swiftblade wrote: »

If it was done right, I'm sure it would be. If there was a way to have an agreement with private companies to stop selling luxury goods to Russia, I can guarantee that would work, but it'll never happen.

I doubt the Germans would be up for it for one...

Oystertime

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

What utter nonsense, this isn't some Tom Clancy novel we are talking about here. So leaving works of fiction aside, thankfully I think NATO is wise enough to avoid any confrontation with Russia.

NATO boots in Ukraine. Tell the Russians to fukc off if they have a problem with it.

These separatists just blew up a fukcing commercial airliner for fukc sake. Remove them from Ukraine with force.

comongethappy

Skylinehead wrote: »

NATO boots on the ground 50km from the Russian border will not end well.

Why?

Russia won't mind.... sure hasn't Putin been telling the world he is only interested in peace.

Skylinehead

comongethappy wrote: »

Why?

Russia won't mind.... sure hasn't Putin been telling the world he is only interested in peace.

Whatever Putin's spin is, Russia will not tolerate any foreign troops so close to their borders, and you know that.

comongethappy

Skylinehead wrote: »

Whatever Putin's spin is, Russia will not tolerate any foreign troops so close to their borders, and you know that.

Yes I do.

I'm just (poorly) pointing out that any talk of peace from Vladi is just tripe.

Grandpa Hassan

There is nothing more than tyrants like than major sporting events that give then legitimacy. Europe and the US should boycott the Russia World Cup. Putin would hate that more than any kind of sanction

suicide_circus

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

There is nothing more than tyrants like than major sporting events that give then legitimacy. Europe and the US should boycott the Russia World Cup. Putin would hate that more than any kind of sanction

Very true. 4 years is along way away however and I can see putin engineering a spin campaign to mitigate this

Nodin

Oystertime wrote: »

NATO boots in Ukraine. Tell the Russians to fukc off if they have a problem with it.

These separatists just blew up a fukcing commercial airliner for fukc sake. Remove them from Ukraine with force.

Silly talk. They're going to have to increase the sanctions, but direct military force is out of the question.

McChubbin

Just heard on the news that rebels from Ukraine have snatched approximately 38 bodies from the site so as to try and stop the forensic teams from finding the country at fault. Ghouls, the lot of them.

swiftblade

McChubbin wrote: »

Just heard on the news that rebels from Ukraine have snatched approximately 38 bodies from the site so as to try and stop the forensic teams from finding the country at fault. Ghouls, the lot of them.

Seem a little foolish if they did actually do that. There's not much they could tell anyway from the bodies that would be new.

comongethappy

swiftblade wrote: »

Seem a little foolish if they did actually do that. There's not much they could tell anyway from the bodies that would be new.

Explosive residues?

I've no idea of course, but I figure there is a chance the type of explosives used in the BUK warhead can be identified?

Chattastrophe!

McChubbin wrote: »

Just heard on the news that rebels from Ukraine have snatched approximately 38 bodies from the site so as to try and stop the forensic teams from finding the country at fault. Ghouls, the lot of them.

It's f*cking disgusting.

Parents, spouses, partners, children, families and friends of the victims are already reeling in shock and trying to comprehend what has just happened and begin the grieving process.

And then this uncertainty of not even knowing where your loved one's body is? Are they still lying in a field decaying and being eaten by insects and animals? Are they on that mysterious train the media is referring to? Where are they, and will you ever get them back to lay them to rest properly?

It is just absolutely cruel on those left behind.

swiftblade

comongethappy wrote: »

Explosive residues?

I've no idea of course, but I figure there is a chance the type of explosives used in the BUK warhead can be identified?

Can be identified as Russian? Sure, which we already pretty much know. Doesn't mean it was Russian fired.

Lets be honest here, I think we all know where the missile platform came from. I'd highly doubt it was smuggled across the border, when there are ones already in the country anyway.

The main thing that needs to be established is where it was fired from, if we are looking to blame someone. Analyzing bodies or wreckage isn't going to tell us that though.

darkpagandeath

swiftblade wrote: »

Can be identified as Russian? Sure, which we already pretty much know. Doesn't mean it was Russian fired.

Lets be honest here, I think we all know where the missile platform came from. I'd highly doubt it was smuggled across the border, when there are ones already in the country anyway.

The main thing that needs to be established is where it was fired from, if we are looking to blame someone. Analyzing bodies or wreckage isn't going to tell us that though.

Tanks, APC's, trailers with heavy weapons on them have all been "smuggled" access the border. And then handed to the separatists. It's already established they have been trained how to use all this hardware.

swiftblade

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Tanks, APC's, trailers with heavy weapons on them have all been "smuggled" access the border. And then handed to the separatists. It's already established they have been trained how to use all this hardware.

Oh, I have no doubt they were trained by Russians on how to use it. Tanks (As far as I know they still don't have any MBTs) and APCs are one thing, but I'd be very surprised if Russia supplied the Buk system. Too much of a paper trail.

The separatists already paraded a Buk system around in public, but it was a Ukrainian captured one.

KELTICKNIGHTT

swiftblade wrote: »

Oh, I have no doubt they were trained by Russians on how to use it. Tanks (As far as I know they still don't have any MBTs) and APCs are one thing, but I'd be very surprised if Russia supplied the Buk system. Too much of a paper trail.

The separatists already paraded a Buk system around in public, but it was a Ukrainian captured one.

Who trained the pro Russians to use the missile system. Russia did

darkpagandeath

swiftblade wrote: »

Oh, I have no doubt they were trained by Russians on how to use it. Tanks (As far as I know they still don't have any MBTs) and APCs are one thing, but I'd be very surprised if Russia supplied the Buk system. Too much of a paper trail.

The separatists already paraded a Buk system around in public, but it was a Ukrainian captured one.

True but there is a lot of talk the one that downed the plane, Came from Crimea via Russia. And disappeared back over the border after this incident.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Putin been very quiet for last few days

swiftblade

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Who trained the pro Russians to use the missile system. Russia did

I know, that's what I said. I agree with that. I'd be doubtful it was a Russian who pushed the "button" though.

swiftblade

darkpagandeath wrote: »

True but there is a lot of talk the one that downed the plane, Came from Crimea via Russia. And disappeared back over the border after this incident.

Oh, I'm not saying that's not possible. Of course it is. I'm just saying from Putin's point of view, why would he do that. Using one that's already in the country? Plausible deniability.

swiftblade

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Putin been very quiet for last few days

The irony of him saying it's "The Ukraine's problem" is mad!

expectationlost

Shaun Walker @shaunwalker7 · 8h

MH17 bodies - an unverifiable number - are being held in refrigerated wagons at Torez station. The stench is unbearable. Lots of armed men.

BorneTobyWilde

The pictures of the equipment that apparently took down this plane is too convenient . I believe Russia shot down the plane from within Russia. I believe US UK & Germany so on know this.
Blaming the Russian militants saves face for US UK & Germany and Russia, because for everyone to know the truth would put huge pressure on US UK and Germany to act, with this story they avoid acting, as they can't take on Russia. Russia will also hide black boxes, as I'm sure the plane was giving warnings which would be on the black box via recordings.
Takes up to 5 coordinated vehicles to bring down a plane that high up,no horse shagging carrot crunching militant done that.

Galwayguy35

One would imagine if Europe hit Russia with sanctions they would feel it, I knowthe US has already done so but I don't know is there really much trade between the two countries.

Germany is reluctant so far though because they depend on Russia for oil, and I can see their point of view.

Even here in Ireland they buy quite a lot of Irish beef that we export.

swiftblade

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

The pictures of the equipment that apparently took down this plane is too convenient . I believe Russia shot down the plane from within Russia. I believe US UK & Germany so on know this.
Blaming the Russian militants saves face for US UK & Germany and Russia, because for everyone to know the truth would put huge pressure on US UK and Germany to act, with this story they avoid acting, as they can't take on Russia. Russia will also hide black boxes, as I'm sure the plane was giving warnings which would be on the black box via recordings.
Takes up to 5 coordinated vehicles to bring down a plane that high up,no horse shagging carrot crunching militant done that.

Huh?

1)A passenger airliner would give no indication that a missile had a radar lock on it. There would be nothing on the black box, except for the exact time of impact.

2)Why would Russia shoot down a commercial airliner? With a Buk system, you can identify the type of aircraft you are targeting. A trained professional would know what they were targeting before they shot.

3) It would only take one vehicle. Not sure where you got 5. Any missle that was shot that long range would probably be picked up by NORAD or something. Russia just wouldn't do it.