Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

tomwaterford

Egginacup wrote: »

I haven't seen any evidence that Russia assisted anyone in shooting down this plane.

well them Ukraine rebels (who are supported/suppled with arms/training by Russia) didn't exactly pick up how to use a surface to air missile off the stones....someone taught them
they shot down two during the week...and then this one...

it was Russia what showed them to use these....if that's not assisting them...then I don't know what is:pac::pac:

DamagedTrax

tomwaterford wrote: »

well them Ukraine rebels (who are supported/suppled with arms/training by Russia) didn't exactly pick up how to use a surface to air missile off the stones....someone taught them
they shot down two during the week...and then this one...

it was Russia what showed them to use these....if that's not assisting them...then I don't know what is:pac::pac:

i think his point was that there's no evidence as to who fired it yet, let alone who was sponsoring them.

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

True just depends on who it gets to, I'm sure the relevant intelligence agency's have their ways.

Well if experts in one camp can hack and tamper with them then surely experts another camp could determine that they were indeed hacked and altered? Otherwise what's the point in devoloping a device that can withstand fire, explosions, subzero temperatures, water corrosion and pressure conditions on the bottom of the ocean, etc but you do don't bother including a feature to determine whether its contents were altered?

The most expertly counterfeited tenners are still detectable by experts.

comongethappy

tomwaterford wrote: »

well them Ukraine rebels (who are supported/suppled with arms/training by Russia) didn't exactly pick up how to use a surface to air missile off the stones....someone taught them
they shot down two during the week...and then this one...

it was Russia what showed them to use these....if that's not assisting them...then I don't know what is:pac::pac:

Perhaps so....

It is without dispute that Russian forces have infiltrated Ukraine to sow the seeds of rebellion.

What we also know is that many of the Ukrainian armed forces also defected.
With them went their knowledge & training.

So when the Rebels captured one or more BUK launchers, the crew could have been defected Ukrainian or Russian trained newbies.

Who knows..... Either way the blame rests with the rebels.

Aidric

Egginacup wrote: »

Well if experts in one camp can hack and tamper with them then surely experts another camp could determine that they were indeed hacked and altered? Otherwise what's the point in devoloping a device that can withstand fire, explosions, subzero temperatures, water corrosion and pressure conditions on the bottom of the ocean, etc but you do don't bother including a feature to determine whether its contents were altered?

The most expertly counterfeited tenners are still detectable by experts.

Tbf this is a pretty exceptional situation. I don't remember a previous example of the threat of a flight recorder from a crash being compromised.

tomwaterford

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i think his point was that there's no evidence as to who fired it yet, let alone who was sponsoring them.

well the rocket supposedly came from rebel held terrority and they shot down two fighter jets in the days leading up to it
it is only logical to say it was them??
it is Russia who is sponsoring them....as someone who would normally support Russia/and be vary of western (particulary US and britin) influences around the world.....Russia hasn't a leg to stand on here

Egginacup

tomwaterford wrote: »

AFAIK 15 out of 16 major airlines fly over said route

main question should be...how did Russia believe it could get away with helping to shoot down a passenger plane??
how could they not tell the difference as id imagine a plane carrying 300 odd people would be much bigger than a military bomber plane??

Why would Russia be shooting down a military bomber?

DamagedTrax

tomwaterford wrote: »

well the rocket supposedly came from rebel held terrority and they shot down two fighter jets in the days leading up to it
it is only logical to say it was them??
it is Russia who is sponsoring them....as someone who would normally support Russia/and be vary of western (particulary US and britin) influences around the world.....Russia hasn't a leg to stand on here

until Russia holds it's hand up or John Kerry decides that the 'overwhelming evidence' be made public, we have no possible way to know who shot flight MH17 down.

I'm no fan of Putin, he's a f**kin nut job like the rest of them but with official secrets being released and whistleblowers telling us more than 'they' want us to know, i think we need definitive evidence here, not supposition.

Banjo String

In layman's terms, anyone an opinion?


If this indeed turns out to be the work of the rebels (which is looking more likely), let's say the Russians are majorly peeved with them downing a civilian airliner with nearly 300 soils on board. Could this lead to them being so embarrassed /shamed that they end up disowning rebels, thus spelling an abrupt end to the conflict?

Or at least Russian involvement in it.

tomwaterford

Egginacup wrote: »

Why would Russia be shooting down a military bomber?

emm...because they were bombing cities/rebel positions in eastern Ukraine???
you know the bit that Russia has its eyes on like:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

DamagedTrax

Banjo String wrote: »

In layman's terms, anyone an opinion?


If this indeed turns out to be the work of the rebels (which is looking more likely), let's say the Russians are majorly peeved with them downing a civilian airliner with nearly 300 soils on board. Could this lead to them being so embarrassed /shamed that they end up disowning rebels, thus spelling an abrupt end to the conflict?

Or at least Russian involvement in it.

i cant see how they couldnt step back publicly.

tomwaterford

DamagedTrax wrote: »

until Russia holds it's hand up or John Kerry decides that the 'overwhelming evidence' be made public, we have no possible way to know who shot flight MH17 down.

I'm no fan of Putin, he's a f**kin nut job like the rest of them but with official secrets being released and whistleblowers telling us more than 'they' want us to know, i think we need definitive evidence here, not supposition.

it is as close to being 100% true that they/the rebels were behind it....it would be like saying jimmy saville wasn't a paedophile because he didn't come out and publically annonce it

if all the evidence and circumstances point to it...it is the only logical conclusion to draw


*this being said....im not 100% convined that it was intentional to shot down a civilan aircraft...but am sceptical that they couldn't tell the difference between a bomber plane and one carrying 300 people

Egginacup

dav3 wrote: »

They were warned, unfortunately their risk assessment department deemed it worth the risk for the financial gain. Lufthansa was another airline that decided to take that risk, while the likes of British Airways, Air France and most other major airlines decided it was not worth the risk and diverted around the area.

The question is, was Malaysia Airlines warned that pro-russian rebels had gained control of a surface-to-air missile system on 29th June?

The airlner was diverted from the normal air corridor and into hostile airspace by Kiev air traffic control.

Aidric

Banjo String wrote: »

In layman's terms, anyone an opinion?


If this indeed turns out to be the work of the rebels (which is looking more likely), let's say the Russians are majorly peeved with them downing a civilian airliner with nearly 300 soils on board. Could this lead to them being so embarrassed /shamed that they end up disowning rebels, thus spelling an abrupt end to the conflict?

Or at least Russian involvement in it.

That would be the smart move but I wouldn't hold my breath.

DamagedTrax

tomwaterford wrote: »

it is as close to being 100% true that they/the rebels were behind it....it would be like saying jimmy saville wasn't a paedophile because he didn't come out and publically annonce it

in savilles case there where victim reports that outweighed any evidence to the contrary (if it existed). the only physical evidence we have that the russians/seperatists shot down MH17 is locked up in John Kerry's desk.

*this being said....im not 100% convined that it was intentional to shot down a civilan aircraft...but am sceptical that they couldn't tell the difference between a bomber plane and one carrying 300 people

like i said earlier, i do hope it was the russian side. and i certainly hope it was an almighty f**k up because if it ever comes out as intentional, we'll reach a tipping point.

on the other hand, if it was ukranian involvement, i think there will be a huge social shift. what many people cant even contemplate will be suddenly a very public reality.

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

The airlner was diverted from the normal air corridor and into hostile airspace by Kiev air traffic control.

Says who ? only divert i head was the plane did not take the traditional rout further to the south that it always used due to bad weather and had to go further north.

comongethappy

Egginacup wrote: »

The airlner was diverted from the normal air corridor and into hostile airspace by Kiev air traffic control.

Has a deviation order been confirmed by Ukranian ATC or is this more 'Carlos the Spaniard/Harvey the invisible rabbit' stuff?

DamagedTrax

comongethappy wrote: »

Has a deviation order been confirmed by Ukranian ATC or is this more 'Carlos the Spaniard/Harvey the invisible rabbit' stuff?

this is the deviation as reported by the guardian (source flight radar 24). no information on who made the order.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/7/18/1405656472978/Malaysia-flight-MH17-Ukra-001.jpg

Aidric

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Says who ? only divert i head was the plane did not take the traditional rout further to the south that it always used due to bad weather and had to go further north.

yep, due to thunderstorm activity.

keith16

Banjo String wrote: »

In layman's terms, anyone an opinion?


If this indeed turns out to be the work of the rebels (which is looking more likely), let's say the Russians are majorly peeved with them downing a civilian airliner with nearly 300 soils on board. Could this lead to them being so embarrassed /shamed that they end up disowning rebels, thus spelling an abrupt end to the conflict?

Or at least Russian involvement in it.

That would be the decent thing to do, but I don't expect it to happen. Instead, it will be a big political football for years and years and the unrest in Eastern Ukraine will drag on and on.

Sad to say it, but the crash won't change anything long term.

DamagedTrax

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Says who ? only divert i head was the plane did not take the traditional rout further to the south that it always used due to bad weather and had to go further north.

In response to claims that weather led to MH17 changing its flight plan, Malaysia Airlines director of operations Izham Ismail said that it had no reports from the pilot to suggest that this was the case

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-changing-course-storms-pilot

tomwaterford

DamagedTrax wrote: »

in savilles case there where victim reports that outweighed any evidence to the contrary (if it existed). the only physical evidence we have that the russians/seperatists shot down MH17 is locked up in John Kerry's desk.




like i said earlier, i do hope it was the russian side. and i certainly hope it was an almighty f**k up because if it ever comes out as intentional, we'll reach a tipping point.

on the other hand, if it was ukranian involvement, i think there will be a huge social shift. what many people cant even contemplate will be suddenly a very public reality.

as an aside slithly off topic...didn't America follow a Iranian(I think) jet around for half hour back in the 80s despite getting radio communication shot it down nonetheless???
often given as reason behind Lockerbie??

anyhoo....I do think it was Russia....as if they running the rebels...they must be responsible for its actions..
as for physical evidence....I doubtjohn Kerry has any....but it would appear no one will ever get any and Russia will get off free as its too powerful to be taken on...all they have to do is keep denying over and over again...

DamagedTrax

tomwaterford wrote: »

anyhoo....I do think it was Russia....as if they running the rebels...they must be responsible for its actions..
as for physical evidence....I doubtjohn Kerry has any....but it would appear no one will ever get any and Russia will get off free as its too powerful to be taken on...all they have to do is keep denying over and over again...

well kerry says he has irrefutable evidence, im assuming from satellite. if thats the case he needs to put his money where his mouth is cause i dont think posturing is a good choice right now.

tomwaterford

DamagedTrax wrote: »

well kerry says he has irrefutable evidence, im assuming from satellite. if thats the case he needs to put his money where his mouth is cause i dont think posturing is a good choice right now.

I agree 100%....but if they had the evidence...they would have realeased by now.....they are trying to undermine Russia with a few years now....why if they have the evidence wont they???
I severly doubt its as irrefutable as he is leading the world to belive tbh

DamagedTrax

tomwaterford wrote: »

I agree 100%....but if they had the evidence...they would have realeased by now.....they are trying to undermine Russia with a few years now....why if they have the evidence wont they???
I severly doubt its as irrefutable as he is leading the world to belive tbh

as long as the world believes russia did it (true or not) then american interests are served.

Banjo String

tomwaterford wrote: »

I agree 100%....but if they had the evidence...they would have realeased by now.....they are trying to undermine Russia with a few years now....why if they have the evidence wont they???
I severly doubt its as irrefutable as he is leading the world to belive tbh

I'm guessing they're not releasing evidence to avoid having to 'react' which is what the most of the international community will be demanding.


No one, (within reason) wants to see a USA v Russia confrontation. Things would/could get severely messy for the whole world if they do.

loughside

While we`re on the subject of John Kerry - he had this to say today..

WASHINGTON -- U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry didn't hold back Sunday in his criticism of the crash site cleanup after Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down in eastern Ukraine Thursday. Pro-Russian separatists in the area have reportedly removed nearly 200 bodies and denied access to international investigators.

"Drunken -- I mean literally, drunken -- separatist soldiers are piling bodies into trucks unceremoniously and disturbing the evidence," Kerry said on "Fox News Sunday."

"Airplane parts have been removed," Kerry continued. "We need full access and this is a moment of truth for Russia. Some of the leaders of the separatists are Russians. Russia arms these separatists. Russia trains these separatists. Russia supports these separatists. Russia has refused to call on them publicly to do the things that need to be done."

A rebel leader said Sunday that recovered bodies have been loaded into refrigerated train cars for holding until an international aviation delegation arrives.

Fox host Chris Wallace pressed Kerry on whether President Barack Obama's administration would impose tougher penalties on Russia or increase military assistance to Ukraine, since Kerry and other officials have strongly implied that Russian President Vladimir Putin bears blame for the tragedy. The Pentagon has said that Russians likely helped the separatists in eastern Ukrainian obtain and operate the missile system that allegedly shot down the plane.

"It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia," Kerry said in an interview on CNN.

pablo128

There was the tweets from the rebels in the immediate aftermath bragging about shooting down a Ukrainian plane which was deleted when they discovered it was a commercial plane - or is bvllsh1t being called on that?

And there was an intercepted call between the rebels and Russians in the moments after the crash, with specific details on one passenger and what university he was attending - or is that perceived to be b0llocks too?

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

Perhaps so....

It is without dispute that Russian forces have infiltrated Ukraine to sow the seeds of rebellion.

What we also know is that many of the Ukrainian armed forces also defected.
With them went their knowledge & training.

So when the Rebels captured one or more BUK launchers, the crew could have been defected Ukrainian or Russian trained newbies.

Who knows..... Either way the blame rests with the rebels.

You really can't categorically just state with whom the blame rests unless you can provide evidence for your claims. Just guessing and stating things like they are facts with zero evidence or proof is counterproductive to the discussion.

DamagedTrax

pablo128 wrote: »

There was the tweets from the rebels in the immediate aftermath bragging about shooting down a Ukrainian plane which was deleted when they discovered it was a commercial plane - or is bvllsh1t being called on that?

has it been verified? surely twitter inc. will be involved if it can be used as evidence, deleted or not. until then its hearsay.

[And there was an intercepted call between the rebels and Russians in the moments after the crash, with specific details on one passenger and what university he was attending - or is that perceived to be b0llocks too?

are they verifiable? if so then thats some great evidence against Russia/seperatists. if not then it may aswell be my little sister ringing her mate for all the good it would be.