Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Tail Docker

The rebels had shot down other aircraft in the days leading up to this - Antonov military transports.

If you have any experience of lads shooting at stuff, the first one is a bit "Wow! We hit it!" then everyone starts looking for another to shoot at, and again "Yaay! We got that one too! Man, we're good!" Then, pretty much everything with wings becomes the goal because now we're the bad-asses with the big stick, come and have a go if you think you're hard enough.

Then, Vasili, who makes up for in enthusiasm what he lacks in brains, bangs one off at that yoke up there, which has to be another Antonov, right? Sure, we've no planes, so it has to be one of "theirs".. This turns out not to be Vasilis finest hour and his local commander goes feckin ape, but, thing is, the plane is now a smoking pile of shyte. So, Vasilis boss phones the Big boss, who phones his big boss, and jasus, the shyte is now really hitting the fan. Thing is, no-one can undo Vasilis shot, so now, there has to be smoke and mirrors, diplomacy, cover-ups, denials and people getting the head bitten off them.

That, i'd imagine, is pretty close to how we got to here. How we get from here to the next is the big question.

Egginacup

Aidric wrote: »

Tbf this is a pretty exceptional situation. I don't remember a previous example of the threat of a flight recorder from a crash being compromised.

I would have to agree with you. I'm simply asking questions though. People seem to be all of a sudden very knowledgeable about tampering with the contents of black box flight recorders yet won't explain their expertise in light of how tampering might be revealed.

Meglamonia

I reckon the site has been badly tampered with already by those scumbags.Supposedly they were the first to the scene within 20 minutes.

This site should of been under strict supervision by a legitimate force.

DamagedTrax

Meglamonia wrote: »

I reckon the site has been badly tampered with already by those scumbags.Supposedly they were the first to the scene within 20 minutes.

This site should of been under strict supervision by a legitimate force.

Agreed, but which is the legitimate force in the area is in dispute, so it was always going to be first come, first served unfortunately.

Tail Docker

Meglamonia wrote: »

I reckon the site has been badly tampered with already by those scumbags.Supposedly they were the first to the scene within 20 minutes.

This site should of been under strict supervision by a legitimate force.

Problem is, that force would need permission to go there, which takes time. They just don't hop into their X5s and shoot across, waving at the people they pass. There are channels, slow channels.

Secondly, on Kerrys "speech", if you were tasked with gathering up body parts that had sat in the sun for 4 days and are now banging pretty badly, and it's a grim task to begin with, lets face it, especially if it's not your day job, chances are, after an hour or two, you'd be either drunk, or wishing you were. Dutch courage isn't just for asking out the pretty girl across the bar.

ZeroThreat

tomwaterford wrote: »

well the rocket supposedly came from rebel held terrority and they shot down two fighter jets in the days leading up to it
it is only logical to say it was them??
it is Russia who is sponsoring them....as someone who would normally support Russia/and be vary of western (particulary US and britin) influences around the world.....Russia hasn't a leg to stand on here

If you hate the west so much, why didn't you move somewhere like North Korea, Cuba, China?
They obviously are closer to your ideas of an ideal society that our corrupt imperialist decadent state comrade?

Meglamonia

DamagedTrax wrote: »

Agreed, but which is the legitimate force in the area is in dispute, so it was always going to be first come, first served unfortunately.

If Putin is saying this is Ukraines problem how can the separatists be the ones in charge of this scene, the irony.

DamagedTrax

Originally Posted by tomwaterford View Post
well the rocket supposedly came from rebel held terrority and they shot down two fighter jets in the days leading up to it
it is only logical to say it was them??
it is Russia who is sponsoring them....as someone who would normally support Russia/and be vary of western (particulary US and britin) influences around the world.....Russia hasn't a leg to stand on here

ZeroThreat wrote: »

If you hate the west so much, why didn't you move somewhere like North Korea, Cuba, China?
They obviously are closer to your ideas of an ideal society that our corrupt imperialist decadent state comrade?

well that escalated quickly :eek:

DamagedTrax

Meglamonia wrote: »

If Putin is saying this is Ukraines problem how can the separatists be the ones in charge of this scene, the irony.

clusterf*ck would be the appropriate term i think.

Egginacup

tomwaterford wrote: »

emm...because they were bombing cities/rebel positions in eastern Ukraine???
you know the bit that Russia has its eyes on like:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I would appreciate it if you did not patronise me.

NATO has a 20/20 view of European skies and everything in that airspace including Russian space at least as far as the Urals.
If the Russians were actively blowing planes out of the sky as you seem to suggest it would take mere minutes to reveal such action.

Russia are not at war with The Ukraine. So to suggest that Russia would be shooting down what they think are Ukrainian aircraft over Ukrainian territory is not very credible.

ZeroThreat

DamagedTrax wrote: »

well that escalated quickly :eek:

It's just irritating that many of those on forums such as this constantly bemoaning everything about western civilization and cheerleading every tyranny from China, to North Korea to Iran are most likely closeted comfy middle class types, and mummy & daddy are KPMG partners or Barristers

Tail Docker

Meglamonia wrote: »

If Putin is saying this is Ukraines problem how can the separatists be the ones in charge of this scene, the irony.

Well, technically, it is Ukrainian territory, regardless of what the local boys have declared regarding their independence. So, if it happened in the Ukraine, it's the Ukraines problem. Alright, it's not hugely fair, but technically, it is correct.

wes

Egginacup wrote: »

Russia are not at war with The Ukraine. So to suggest that Russia would be shooting down what they think are Ukrainian aircraft over Ukrainian territory is not very credible.

Your joking right? Russia is occupying the Crimea, so they are most certainly are at war with Ukraine, there solider already rolled in and took over Ukrainian territory, and there now supporting "rebels" against the Ukrainian government.

DamagedTrax

ZeroThreat wrote: »

It's just irritating that many of those on forums such as this constantly bemoaning everything about western civilization and cheerleading every tyrrany from China, to North Korea to Iran are most likely closeted comfy middle class types.

some people have a differing world view than you subscribe to. thats ok too. i personally dont live in the west because the civilisation is what i imagine it should be. im here because of family ties, work and lack of opportunity (and probably fear). doesnt really mean i should up and head to nth korea though, does it?

DamagedTrax

wes wrote: »

Your joking right? Russia is occupying the Crimea, so they are most certainly are at war with Ukraine, there solider already rolled in and took over Ukrainian territory, and there now supporting "rebels" against the Ukrainian government.

but until there's an actual declaration of war, pot-shots at planes would be a foolish move from them.

mickmackey1

Cameron now calling for tougher EU sanctions against Russia.... and he doesn't even want to be in the EU.

What a complete muppet.

pablo128

DamagedTrax wrote: »

has it been verified? surely twitter inc. will be involved if it can be used as evidence, deleted or not. until then its hearsay.



are they verifiable? if so then thats some great evidence against Russia/seperatists. if not then it may aswell be my little sister ringing her mate for all the good it would be.

Here's a link to the deleted tweet. I don't speak Russian, so make of it what you want.
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDAQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpressimus.com%2FInterpreter_Mag%2Fpress%2F3391&ei=1FPMU47XDuS57Abyt4DYAg&usg=AFQjCNEjT5Ctdz0mR4NqxIuzZlb0ImS2kg&bvm=bv.71198958,d.ZGU&cad=rja

wes

DamagedTrax wrote: »

but until there's an actual declaration of war, pot-shots at planes would be a foolish move from them.

I think the occupation of the Crimea, is a declaration of war........ Once your troops roll into foreign territory, then its war, no need to say that your engaged in war, when that happens.

As for the Russian shooting down the planes, the most likely culprits are the "Rebels" (i doubt they shot it down on purpose, probably taught it was a military plane), who have done there level best to make themselves look guilty as ****. What with there interfering with the scene, failing to properly protect the scene, and you know making it very difficult for investigators to do there job, by denying access randomly for no real reason, other than to thrown there weight around.

Sorry, but the "Rebels" and there Russian backer, actions have made them look very, very guilty, and I have yet to see anything from them to disabuse me of that notion. At this point, even if it was an accident, there actions have been deplorable, and they deserve a great deal of condemnation.

I think its about time for the EU to put some sanctions on Russia. Putin could have reigned in the "rebels", and gotten them to secure the scene, and allow the investigators to do there jobs.

DamagedTrax

pablo128 wrote: »

Here's a link to the deleted tweet. I don't speak Russian, so make of it what you want.
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDAQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpressimus.com%2FInterpreter_Mag%2Fpress%2F3391&ei=1FPMU47XDuS57Abyt4DYAg&usg=AFQjCNEjT5Ctdz0mR4NqxIuzZlb0ImS2kg&bvm=bv.71198958,d.ZGU&cad=rja

thats pretty bad looking if real. im not sure a screen shot can be verified (ridiculously open to exploitation), though im sure mr owens at twitter has been contacted for back ups.

loughside

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ff_LTlZZI8

cell phone numbers are under the photos - just in case you want a cosy bedtime chat

InTheTrees

Russian forces in Chechnya routinely blow up the bodies of the dead insurgents to prevent families from giving them a proper funeral.

This is the kind of old school 1950's russian army/separatists they're dealing with there.

No wonder they think they can cover it up. Fifty years ago all you had to do was clean up the site and deny everything and eventually the fuss would die down.

Now we have twitter. And Facebook. And satellite photography, and we're listening to their phones. And they just dont seem to get how completely guilty they're looking, they think they can just keep denying it.

Egginacup

tomwaterford wrote: »

it is as close to being 100% true that they/the rebels were behind it....it would be like saying jimmy saville wasn't a paedophile because he didn't come out and publically annonce it

if all the evidence and circumstances point to it...it is the only logical conclusion to draw


*this being said....im not 100% convined that it was intentional to shot down a civilan aircraft...but am sceptical that they couldn't tell the difference between a bomber plane and one carrying 300 people

"annonce"?

Poor choice of wording, mate.

Egginacup

tomwaterford wrote: »

well them Ukraine rebels (who are supported/suppled with arms/training by Russia) didn't exactly pick up how to use a surface to air missile off the stones....someone taught them
they shot down two during the week...and then this one...

it was Russia what showed them to use these....if that's not assisting them...then I don't know what is:pac::pac:

This is a very important discussion. People are dead and more people stand to die if this wretched event isn't clarified.

Piling in with "baccy-chewing" redneck-speak is a little inappropriate.

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

Has a deviation order been confirmed by Ukranian ATC or is this more 'Carlos the Spaniard/Harvey the invisible rabbit' stuff?

There's no need to be either flippant OR abusive.

Egginacup

Aidric wrote: »

yep, due to thunderstorm activity.

Can you supply thunderstorm activity data which in the region would cause the redirection of air traffic, please?

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Says who ? only divert i head was the plane did not take the traditional rout further to the south that it always used due to bad weather and had to go further north.

Without wanting so sound pompous or condescending but do you think that pilots who fly at 550 knots and at 10,000 metres simply change course? Hang a u-turn? have a stab at a quicker route like some punk in his first car? Do you think they are trained for hundreds of hours to carry people safely around the world but would just not inform ground guidance, radar stations or anyone else.....just to change their course on a whim?

Airborne vessels are guided, monitored and controlled by earthbound tracking operations and personnel. Pilots do not just say "let's change course, I smell a storm up ahead."

smurfjed

OK Egginacup, what is your proposed solution? What do you want the UN/NATA/US/ANOTHER to actually do about this?

Pilots do not just say "let's change course, I smell a storm up ahead."

Actually they do! Something on the lines of "request deviation left/right to avoid weather", now if no one answers or gives that permission, you will still deviate if the weather is severe enough.

Egginacup

wes wrote: »

Your joking right? Russia is occupying the Crimea, so they are most certainly are at war with Ukraine, there solider already rolled in and took over Ukrainian territory, and there now supporting "rebels" against the Ukrainian government.

I have never heard anything regarding a war between Russia and The Ukraine. Nor have I heard anything regarding Russian military forces having invaded The Ukraine. I'll not tender this argument regarding Crimeans becoming part of Russia again because it will sully the debate. Worse it will detract from the issue of us all discussing the assault upon an civilian airliner.

Egginacup

ZeroThreat wrote: »

If you hate the west so much, why didn't you move somewhere like North Korea, Cuba, China?
They obviously are closer to your ideas of an ideal society that our corrupt imperialist decadent state comrade?

I hardly think such a comment is helpful. Nor is it appropriate.

Tail Docker

wes wrote: »

I think the occupation of the Crimea, is a declaration of war........ Once your troops roll into foreign territory, then its war, no need to say that your engaged in war, when that happens.

As for the Russian shooting down the planes, the most likely culprits are the "Rebels" (i doubt they shot it down on purpose, probably taught it was a military plane), who have done there level best to make themselves look guilty as ****. What with there interfering with the scene, failing to properly protect the scene, and you know making it very difficult for investigators to do there job, by denying access randomly for no real reason, other than to thrown there weight around.

Sorry, but the "Rebels" and there Russian backer, actions have made them look very, very guilty, and I have yet to see anything from them to disabuse me of that notion. At this point, even if it was an accident, there actions have been deplorable, and they deserve a great deal of condemnation.

I think its about time for the EU to put some sanctions on Russia. Putin could have reigned in the "rebels", and gotten them to secure the scene, and allow the investigators to do there jobs.

Fly in the ointment is, The US has had "Military advisers" on ground in the Ukraine since day one of the "Unrest". So, if the world is to go by strict definitions, it gets complicated fast.. The US sends in heavies, the Russians send in heavies, everyone pretends they didn't send in heavies because neither wants a war, but they both quite fancy the idea of having a bit of the Ukraine, for various reasons. From then on, it's not so much a question of what actually happens, but of managing public perception of what happens.

So, awful as it sounds, but maybe it is in the "Wests" interests to make sure teams of journalists reach the scene rapidly, but search and rescue teams, not so much. And it's in Russias interests to distance themselves as far as possible from the men who shot the plane down, without actually coming out and condemning them, which would make the next big sit down with them a bit awkward.