Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Egginacup

wes wrote: »

I think the occupation of the Crimea, is a declaration of war........ Once your troops roll into foreign territory, then its war, no need to say that your engaged in war, when that happens.

As for the Russian shooting down the planes, the most likely culprits are the "Rebels" (i doubt they shot it down on purpose, probably taught it was a military plane), who have done there level best to make themselves look guilty as ****. What with there interfering with the scene, failing to properly protect the scene, and you know making it very difficult for investigators to do there job, by denying access randomly for no real reason, other than to thrown there weight around.

Sorry, but the "Rebels" and there Russian backer, actions have made them look very, very guilty, and I have yet to see anything from them to disabuse me of that notion. At this point, even if it was an accident, there actions have been deplorable, and they deserve a great deal of condemnation.

I think its about time for the EU to put some sanctions on Russia. Putin could have reigned in the "rebels", and gotten them to secure the scene, and allow the investigators to do there jobs.

I'll bite but only for a second.
Didn't the majority of the Crimeans actually vote to have their land returned to Russia after it was given away in the 50's by Nikita Khruschev?
So how the Russians are actually occupying a place where the locals want them by popular ballot is baffling to me.

But also this term "I think"/"I'm of the opinion"/"maybe"/"possibly"/ with respect to everyone's views on this Malaysian plane attack is even more baffling, if not disturbing. Not a shred of evidence has yet been forwarded that the Russian had so much as a sniff in this awful crime. Yet everyone is screaming that Putin "The Thug" had to have been the man who killed 295 people.

Not a smidgen of evidence yet Russians did it. End of story.

Egginacup

Has this man been verified and has this tweet also been verified?

comongethappy

Egginacup wrote: »

I'll bite but only for a second.
Didn't the majority of the Crimeans actually vote to have their land returned to Russia

No.

The Russian government figures put the Crimean "referendum" at 30% turnout with a 50-50 split.

There has never been so much as an opinion poll articulating a desire to be part of Russia

The whole thing was a sham for the Kremlin media.

Egginacup wrote: »

Yet everyone is screaming that Putin "The Thug" had to have been the man who killed 295 people

Well.... The guy started this whole crises.... And frankly the guy is a thug. (I'd love to know as head of East Germany's KGB, how many Germans he made 'disappear' trying to flee communism.

..... However I do agree, I don't think Russia is directly to blame.

By 1-degree of separation, the Kremlin is absolutely to blame

Egginacup

smurfjed wrote: »

OK Egginacup, what is your proposed solution? What do you want the UN/NATA/US/ANOTHER to actually do about this?

Actually they do! Something on the lines of "request deviation left/right to avoid weather", now if no one answers or gives that permission, you will still deviate if the weather is severe enough.

What do I propose? A solution?

I'm not quite sure but I might suggest that people stop guessing as to who might be responsible and maybe listen or at least wait for facts. Facts do tend to show how things transpire.

You just wrote that pilots deviate from a given flight path on their own recognicense. Their own whim without a mention to ground. I'm no ATC expert so can you tell me if this is actually factual? If you can provide a pilot's quote that he or she actually re-maneuvres a passenger airliner without notifying those who are tasked with governing the airspace I would very much appreciate it.

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

No.

The Russian government figures put the Crimean "referendum" at 30% turnout with a 50-50 split.

There has never been so much as an opinion poll articulating a desire to be part of Russia

The whole thing was a sham for the Kremlin media.



Well.... The guy started this whole crises.... And frankly the guy is a thug. (I'd love to know as head of East Germany's KGB, how many Germans he made 'disappear' trying to flee communism.

..... However I do agree, I don't think Russia is directly to blame.

By 1-degree of separation, the Kremlin is absolutely to blame

Well I'll hold out for evidence as most newspapers should also.

I saw, perhaps five or six newspapers on friday and most of their headlines read something along the lines of "Putin slaughtered my child" or "Putin's thugs killed my family" or some such rubbish. This borders on insanity coupled with libel. But I suppose it sells papers.

smurfjed

If you can provide a pilot's quote that he or she actually re-maneuvres a passenger airliner without notifying those who are tasked with governing the airspace I would very much appreciate it.

If you actually read what i wrote, i stated that if no one answers you or gives the permission, you can still deviate around the weather. But this flight was FOLLOWING an airway, so the responsible people knew exactly where he was!

comongethappy

Egginacup wrote: »

Well I'll hold out for evidence as most newspapers should also.
.

Is any evidence enough.... Or just the evidence your pre-set agenda deem acceptable.

For me, when the Donetsk rebel leader tells the world on social media they "downed a bird", Im inclined to assume he wasn't talking about duck hunting....

You might also ask, if they claim to have shot down a plane.... Yet DIDNT down MH17... where is the plane they say they shot down?

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

No.

The Russian government figures put the Crimean "referendum" at 30% turnout with a 50-50 split.

There has never been so much as an opinion poll articulating a desire to be part of Russia

The whole thing was a sham for the Kremlin media.



Well.... The guy started this whole crises.... And frankly the guy is a thug. (I'd love to know as head of East Germany's KGB, how many Germans he made 'disappear' trying to flee communism.

..... However I do agree, I don't think Russia is directly to blame.

By 1-degree of separation, the Kremlin is absolutely to blame

This discussion isn't about Crimea. Someone did however mention that Russia is occupying parts of The Ukraine. They used the words "war" and "invasion".

If you have electoral statistics regarding the decision of the Crimeans to have their land re-ceded to Russia then I would appreciate such data. Moreover I would also appreciate information that you may have that would shed light on the plight of those in Crimea who resisted and are continuing to resist Russian occupation of their land.

comongethappy

Egginacup wrote: »

If you have electoral statistics regarding the decision of the Crimeans to have their land re-ceded to Russia then I would appreciate such data.

Well, not being your mother, Im going to suggest you find that yourself.

Suffice to say, when the sham "referendum" was taking place one of the politics forum mods (Scofflaw) found polling from a year or so ago putting the " desire to join Russia camp at about 21%

Davei141

The CT'ers have well and truly taken over the thread "just asking questions" ( aka trying to muddy the waters) ... strange breed.

Thoie

Egginacup wrote: »

The airlner was diverted from the normal air corridor and into hostile airspace by Kiev air traffic control.

You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. The airspace over 30,000 feet was not closed - that's been widely established. The plane was flying over 30,000 feet. Flight routes can be diverted for a multitude of reasons, including weather conditions, other flights in the area.

It's almost as if you're trying to convince people to blame Kiev for this.

Unrelated, I am impressed with your passion for this topic. Signing up to a forum just to spend time in a single topic shows some real dedication. I'm too easily distracted, and end up hopping in and out of multiple topics.

gandalf

Thoie wrote: »

Unrelated, I am impressed with your passion for this topic. Signing up to a forum just to spend time in a single topic shows some real dedication. I'm too easily distracted, and end up hopping in and out of multiple topics.

It's great seeing dedication like this these days, it almost like they had a calling

Egginacup

wes wrote: »

Your joking right? Russia is occupying the Crimea, so they are most certainly are at war with Ukraine, there solider already rolled in and took over Ukrainian territory, and there now supporting "rebels" against the Ukrainian government.

I'm not joking at all. This is serious. Very serious.

Are Ukrainian forces attacking Russian territory?
Are Russian batteries pummelling Ukrainian territory?

Are Ukrainian soldiers massing on a Russian border or are Russian troops and tanks massing on Ukraine's borders?
Has Russia started a naval bombardment of Ukraine's Black Sea coast?

Has The Ukraine declared all land and air routes for Russians through Ukrainian land/air to be subject to attack or sanction?

Because you very easily just stated that both of these countries were at war with one another. I haven't heard of such a development.

It's difficult not to lose one's temper upon hearing or reading such remarks but you should not just state things for the shock factor.

Grandpa Hassan

gandalf wrote: »

It's great seeing dedication like this these days, it almost like they had a calling

To be fair to them, they are far more eloquent than the first guys who appeared.....

Wibbs

The flight deviation is a red herring. If you look at the track they deviated all over the place. Maybe they were being targeted in Germany and Poland? Eh no. The longest and most stable part of the flight was from Poland onwards.

They were also flying above the danger/no fly zone. Many other aircraft had flown through the area and there were others around the same time before and after until the air corridor was closed.

When you remove the bullshít, the politics, the political shills, the fog of war and the paranoid neckbeards in bedsits, the simplest explanation is 99 times outa 100 the reality.

As it stands the simplest explanation is that one of the local militia/factions wishing to secede from Ukraine and join Russia, who was getting support from the latter, both tacit and actual, fired upon the airliner in error thinking it was a transport plane.

Is this Russia's/Putin's "fault"? Nope, not directly. Not even close. Yes it was a Russian missile launcher, yes it looks extremely likely it was loosed by some no name gobshíte who feels "Russian", but no way in hell would Putin have ordered such a move. I'll bet he's bloody well fuming at all this. This does him no favours at all. Well... given he's a very clever man who knows how to turn lemons into lemonade, this fcukup does give him a litmus test on how far "the West's" outrage will actually translate into action.

gandalf

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

To be fair to them, they are far more eloquent than the first guys who appeared.....

True, although one of those is still posting "updates" in the thread in politics in a very clumsy and informatitical fashion and has not been dealt with by the mods.

To a degree these guys are also clumsy, using near CT tactics to try and derail the factual information.

• An insurrection that is supported, armed and in some cases directly assisted by Moscow is responsible for the murder of nearly 300 people flying over Ukraine in a Jet Liner.
  
• The asset directly involved was supplied from Russia and has been ferried back over the Russian border in a most clandestine fashion.
  
• The main actors in charge of this "insurrection" claimed a great victory in shooting down a plane right after the event only to rapidly backtrack when they realised they had shot down a packed civilian jet liner.
  
• The forces on the ground who are Pro-Russian Separatists have interfered with the site, taken the black boxes away, have removed bodies from the scene, have not allowed the independent investigators full access to the site and have allowed the looting of luggage and bodies to occur.

wes

Egginacup wrote: »

I have never heard anything regarding a war between Russia and The Ukraine. Nor have I heard anything regarding Russian military forces having invaded The Ukraine. I'll not tender this argument regarding Crimeans becoming part of Russia again because it will sully the debate. Worse it will detract from the issue of us all discussing the assault upon an civilian airliner.

Ok, so you are taking the piss. Sorry, but discussing the fact the Russia is occupying a huge chunk of Ukraine, and supporting "rebels" in the Ukraine isn't detracting from the debate, its a huge part of it.

wes

Tail Docker wrote: »

Fly in the ointment is, The US has had "Military advisers" on ground in the Ukraine since day one of the "Unrest".

So? The US were there at the behest of the legitimately elected Ukrainian government. There is no comparison, to Russia annexing a huge chunk of Ukrainian territory.

wes

Egginacup wrote: »

I'll bite but only for a second.
Didn't the majority of the Crimeans actually vote to have their land returned to Russia after it was given away in the 50's by Nikita Khruschev?

The vote has no option to keep the status quo, firstly, which on it own denied anyone who wanted the status quo to voice that desire, and add to that the lack of international observers, its pretty clear that the entire thing was illegitimate.

Egginacup wrote: »

So how the Russians are actually occupying a place where the locals want them by popular ballot is baffling to me.

A rigged election, that gave no option to remain in the Ukraine.

Egginacup wrote: »

But also this term "I think"/"I'm of the opinion"/"maybe"/"possibly"/ with respect to everyone's views on this Malaysian plane attack is even more baffling, if not disturbing. Not a shred of evidence has yet been forwarded that the Russian had so much as a sniff in this awful crime. Yet everyone is screaming that Putin "The Thug" had to have been the man who killed 295 people.

Now, now, there is plenty of evidence, of Putin's "rebels" destroying evidence, limiting access to the site for investigators, failing to secure the site etc. It seems pretty clear to me that there acting pretty damn guilty, and quite frankly doing themselves no favors in that regards.

Egginacup wrote: »

Not a smidgen of evidence yet Russians did it. End of story.

Well, its sort of hard to provide evidence, when Putin backed rebels have already destroyed so much of it, and that is something that there is plenty of evidence of. Still, there are also phone calls, and the various tweets etc about shooting own a military plane at the same time. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what happened.

So quite frankly, there doing the level best to make themselves look guilty. BTW, I never blamed Russia, and let be honest the most likely culprits are the rebels who shot down the airliner in error, thinking it a Ukrainian military transport. There current carry on, is just making things far worse, and dragging things out for the families of the dead, and quite frankly thats just a nasty thing to imho.

wes

Egginacup wrote: »

It's difficult not to lose one's temper upon hearing or reading such remarks but you should not just state things for the shock factor.

Russian troops in the Crimea speaks to a defacto state of war.

darkpagandeath

Donetsk train station under fire apparently Ukrainian army attacking separatists on news atm.

danniemcq

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Donetsk train station under fire apparently Ukrainian army attacking separatists on news atm.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/us-ukraine-crisis-airplane-idUSKBN0FQ0K420140721?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter

First major outbreak of hostilities since the plane was downed

Egginacup

smurfjed wrote: »

If you actually read what i wrote, i stated that if no one answers you or gives the permission, you can still deviate around the weather. But this flight was FOLLOWING an airway, so the responsible people knew exactly where he was!

I'd like to know how you know all this.
Losing contact with air traffic control would be a cause for concern, I would think.

Are you saying that planes routinely lose contact with the ground for maybe 10 or 20 minutes?
How can this be so?

This aircraft was re-directed 200 kilometres from its flight path. That doesn't strike me as the motion of a pilot who lost contact with the Kiev air traffic control tower, made a decision to fly around a storm and then return to his original course.

How long do you think planes routinely lose contact with the ATC? I've never heard of such a thing except in the case of equipment malfunction or the pilots being dead in the cockpit.
Transponders still work if the crew can't communicate and they give a constant feed of speed, altitude and heading.

So if you are suggesting that a plane can just be changed of its course and no alarm bells go off on the ground then such a claim is quite frankly absurd.

This entire question of the plane being redirected or the pilots changing course can very easily be cleared up by the communications recording with the Kiev control tower.

That recording, has, however, been seized by SBU security and we are unlikely to ever have it revealed.

Don't you think that Kiev would want to have the world know exactly what happened to this aircraft? And therefore make known the ATC to plane communications?

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

No.

The Russian government figures put the Crimean "referendum" at 30% turnout with a 50-50 split.

There has never been so much as an opinion poll articulating a desire to be part of Russia

The whole thing was a sham for the Kremlin media.



Well.... The guy started this whole crises.... And frankly the guy is a thug. (I'd love to know as head of East Germany's KGB, how many Germans he made 'disappear' trying to flee communism.

..... However I do agree, I don't think Russia is directly to blame.

By 1-degree of separation, the Kremlin is absolutely to blame

I'd like to ask you a question.
You believe the Russian government regarding this 30% turnout.
How come you believe that but don't believe when the Russian government says anything else?

loughside

Egginacup
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 27

C`mon komrad, tell the guys and gals how much you get paid for all this?? Are you a party member??

mickmackey1

Strange how in Ukraine they are called 'separatists' but in the north of our country they are called 'unionists'.

Not that I expect westernised sheeple to understand the irony.

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

Is any evidence enough.... Or just the evidence your pre-set agenda deem acceptable.

For me, when the Donetsk rebel leader tells the world on social media they "downed a bird", Im inclined to assume he wasn't talking about duck hunting....

You might also ask, if they claim to have shot down a plane.... Yet DIDNT down MH17... where is the plane they say they shot down?

I don't really know. I don't have a pre-set agenda either.
A man goes on social media and tells the world "they downed a bird". Is that ironclad proof in your eyes? Not long ago scores of newspapers and dozens of ill informed pundits simply stated without a shred of proof that the Russians downed the plane. Now all of a sudden a Donetsk rebel leader says he did it and all of a sudden that is what happened. Again not a scintilla of evidence or proof, just this character's say-so.

Would you not like to have something a little more indefatigable than that?

OldRio

He has to be on a wind up.

comongethappy

Egginacup wrote: »

I'd like to ask you a question.
You believe the Russian government regarding this 30% turnout.

In lieu of anyone else being allowed to verify the "referendum", the only results disclosed was those by Moscow.

A poor attempt at a straw-man.

loughside

OldRio wrote: »

He has to be on a wind up.

of course it is,

trying to defend the indefensible in this instance goes to show what lengths the kremlin propaganda machine will go to,

a similar argument could be made that the earth is indeed flat

the old adage of `don`t feed the trolls` applies here