Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

gandalf

loughside wrote: »

trying to defend the indefensible in this instance goes to show what lengths the kremlin propaganda machine will go to,

Hmmm a few related stories on that.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/10/russias-online-comment-propaganda-army/280432/

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online

The problem is that these guys make the Israeli shills look sophisticated LOL!!

Egginacup

Wibbs wrote: »

The flight deviation is a red herring. If you look at the track they deviated all over the place. Maybe they were being targeted in Germany and Poland? Eh no. The longest and most stable part of the flight was from Poland onwards.

They were also flying above the danger/no fly zone. Many other aircraft had flown through the area and there were others around the same time before and after until the air corridor was closed.

When you remove the bullshít, the politics, the political shills, the fog of war and the paranoid neckbeards in bedsits, the simplest explanation is 99 times outa 100 the reality.

As it stands the simplest explanation is that one of the local militia/factions wishing to secede from Ukraine and join Russia, who was getting support from the latter, both tacit and actual, fired upon the airliner in error thinking it was a transport plane.

Is this Russia's/Putin's "fault"? Nope, not directly. Not even close. Yes it was a Russian missile launcher, yes it looks extremely likely it was loosed by some no name gobshíte who feels "Russian", but no way in hell would Putin have ordered such a move. I'll bet he's bloody well fuming at all this. This does him no favours at all. Well... given he's a very clever man who knows how to turn lemons into lemonade, this fcukup does give him a litmus test on how far "the West's" outrage will actually translate into action.

I can't bring myself to believe nor can anyone seem to convince me that this plane was shot down by accident.
You just stated that somebody fired on it thinking that it was a transporter or a cargo plane. Why would anybody do that?
Someone earlier stated that multiple airliners fly over this area everyday. If that's the case and if ground personnel simply fire at will into the air at planes the identity of which they can only guess then how do you explain why passenger airliner are not tumbling in flames out of the Ukrainian skies each week?

VinLieger

Egginacup wrote: »

I don't really know. I don't have a pre-set agenda either.
A man goes on social media and tells the world "they downed a bird". Is that ironclad proof in your eyes? Not long ago scores of newspapers and dozens of ill informed pundits simply stated without a shred of proof that the Russians downed the plane. Now all of a sudden a Donetsk rebel leader says he did it and all of a sudden that is what happened. Again not a scintilla of evidence or proof, just this character's say-so.

Would you not like to have something a little more indefatigable than that?

Its not incontrovertible proof but considering he is in charge of a rebel group that are active in the region and boasted about obtaining a missile system of the same type that was used only a few weeks before. Add to that his ominous boast of "we told you not to fly in our skies" and its hard to not be pointing fingers.

VinLieger

Egginacup wrote: »

I can't bring myself to believe nor can anyone seem to convince me that this plane was shot down by accident.
You just stated that somebody fired on it thinking that it was a transporter or a cargo plane. Why would anybody do that?
Someone earlier stated that multiple airliners fly over this area everyday. If that's the case and if ground personnel simply fire at will into the air at planes the identity of which they can only guess then how do you explain why passenger airliner are not tumbling in flames out of the Ukrainian skies each week?

It makes absolutely no sense for anyone to have downed the the Airliner on purpose unless you are suggesting one of these crack pot false flag operation conspiracy theories.

Its very easy to understand that an ill trained rebel eager to gain a bit of glory saw what he though was a military transport plane flying at a high altitude and wanted to play with his new toy.

Egginacup

wes wrote: »

Ok, so you are taking the piss. Sorry, but discussing the fact the Russia is occupying a huge chunk of Ukraine, and supporting "rebels" in the Ukraine isn't detracting from the debate, its a huge part of it.

There is a complete library of opinions to be written as to whether Russia is occupying parts of The Ukraine, whether Russia has invaded The Ukraine, whether some in The Ukraine wanted it and others didn't. That, however, is a complete deflection from the issue at hand.

A plane has been shot down. 295 people have been killed and whoever is responsible knew they were attacking a passenger airliner and killing civilians.

comongethappy

Egginacup wrote: »

There is a complete library of opinions to be written as to whether Russia is occupying parts of The Ukraine, whether Russia has invaded The Ukraine, whether some in The Ukraine wanted it and others didn't.

No.... No opinions.

Just facts.

- Russia annexed Crimea.
- Russia is fermenting rebellion in the east.
- Russian rebels brought down flight MH17.

Just the facts...

No amount of whataboutery or shilling changes this.

DamagedTrax

comongethappy wrote: »

No.... No opinions.

Just facts.

- Russian rebels brought down flight MH17.

how exactly is that a fact? and if it is then why arent you selling your incredible investigative journalism skills to the highest bidder?

seriously? a fact is something that has been proven. anything else is, as you say 'whataboutery or shilling'.

Egginacup

wes wrote: »

The vote has no option to keep the status quo, firstly, which on it own denied anyone who wanted the status quo to voice that desire, and add to that the lack of international observers, its pretty clear that the entire thing was illegitimate.



A rigged election, that gave no option to remain in the Ukraine.



Now, now, there is plenty of evidence, of Putin's "rebels" destroying evidence, limiting access to the site for investigators, failing to secure the site etc. It seems pretty clear to me that there acting pretty damn guilty, and quite frankly doing themselves no favors in that regards.



Well, its sort of hard to provide evidence, when Putin backed rebels have already destroyed so much of it, and that is something that there is plenty of evidence of. Still, there are also phone calls, and the various tweets etc about shooting own a military plane at the same time. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what happened.

So quite frankly, there doing the level best to make themselves look guilty. BTW, I never blamed Russia, and let be honest the most likely culprits are the rebels who shot down the airliner in error, thinking it a Ukrainian military transport. There current carry on, is just making things far worse, and dragging things out for the families of the dead, and quite frankly thats just a nasty thing to imho.

I've asked this question before. How is it possible to mistake a passenger airliner for a military transporter? Surely the person tasked with operating the missile battery would have been trained to make sure he knew what target he was attacking. Surely he would have known that there needed to be clarification of what aircraft he was targeting, given that civilian airliners traverse the airspace also.
Unless you can tell me otherwise then I don't think the operators of these rather sophisticated systems just fire at anything they see floating 30,000 feet overhead.

loughside

As things stand this is about where the russians are at the moment

This Is What Kremlin Panic Looks Like



http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-what-kremlin-panic-looks-like-2014-7

Egginacup

wes wrote: »

So? The US were there at the behest of the legitimately elected Ukrainian government. There is no comparison, to Russia annexing a huge chunk of Ukrainian territory.

I thought the Kiev government assumed power via a coup. Was there actually an election?

wes

Egginacup wrote: »

There is a complete library of opinions to be written as to whether Russia is occupying parts of The Ukraine, whether Russia has invaded The Ukraine, whether some in The Ukraine wanted it and others didn't. That, however, is a complete deflection from the issue at hand.

No, its a simple statement of fact. Russia is occupying the Crimea.

Egginacup wrote: »

A plane has been shot down. 295 people have been killed and whoever is responsible knew they were attacking a passenger airliner and killing civilians.

Ok, so seeing as the most likely people to have shot it down are the rebels, your saying they did it on purpose? If not, then who shot it down on purpose and for what purpose?

Sorry, but the most likely scenario is that the rebels screwed up and shot it down by accident. I have the feeling you will come with some convoluted conspiracy theory type stuff.

VinLieger

Egginacup wrote: »

I've asked this question before. How is it possible to mistake a passenger airliner for a military transporter? Surely the person tasked with operating the missile battery would have been trained to make sure he knew what target he was attacking. Surely he would have known that there needed to be clarification of what aircraft he was targeting, given that civilian airliners traverse the airspace also.
Unless you can tell me otherwise then I don't think the operators of these rather sophisticated systems just fire at anything they see floating 30,000 feet overhead.

You are making so many assumptions that the rebel operating this machine has any military training whatsoever. You do understand the vast majority of these rebels are not military personnel yes?

comongethappy

DamagedTrax wrote: »

how exactly is that a fact? .

- Rebels state they shoot down plane
- MH17 lies in ruins nearby.
- Rebels, in conversation with GRU commander in Moscow confirmed the downed plane as civilian.

Someone get Benedict Cumberbatch asap!

wes

Egginacup wrote: »

I thought the Kiev government assumed power via a coup. Was there actually an election?

Ok, so you are taking the piss:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014

ZeroThreat

comongethappy wrote: »

- Rebels state they shoot down plane
- MH17 lies in ruins nearby.
- Rebels, in conversation with GRU commander in Moscow confirmed the downed plane as civilian.

Someone get Benedict Cumberbatch asap!

Didn't captain Kirk put him back into frozen storage though?? :cool:

Sierra Oscar

Reuters: Malaysia Airlines flies over Syrian airspace - Flightradar24

(Reuters) - Malaysia Airlines re-routed a Kuala Lumpur-to-London flight over Syrian airspace on Sunday after its usual route over Ukraine was closed, flight tracking data showed on Monday.

Would be best for MA to avoid flying over Syrian airspace!

Egginacup

VinLieger wrote: »

It makes absolutely no sense for anyone to have downed the the Airliner on purpose unless you are suggesting one of these crack pot false flag operation conspiracy theories.

Its very easy to understand that an ill trained rebel eager to gain a bit of glory saw what he though was a military transport plane flying at a high altitude and wanted to play with his new toy.

Well that seems to be very simplistic.
As far as I understand these BUK missile batteries are very sophisticated and are operated by personnel who are intelligent, well trained, and disciplined. It's a bit of a stretch of the imagination that some drunkard just had a go at firing at something.

To suggest that the operator would not know or care what he was targeting is not credible.

Wibbs

Egginacup wrote: »

I can't bring myself to believe nor can anyone seem to convince me that this plane was shot down by accident.
You just stated that somebody fired on it thinking that it was a transporter or a cargo plane. Why would anybody do that?

It's called a Fcukup(tm). Happens all the time, particularly in areas that are unstable politically/militarily. And just to get ahead of you, even the most blinkered can't deny the area is currently in flux and unstable with a lot of military hardware and loose chains of command floating about.

A plane has been shot down. 295 people have been killed and whoever is responsible knew they were attacking a passenger airliner and killing civilians.

Annnnnd we're through the looking glass folks... It is far far more likely it was as I said a Fcukup(tm). Your conspiracy nuts of all hues seem to think humans and human organisations are so clever and foolproof, but the facts are - and history will back this up time and time again - incidents like these are of a magnitude more likely to be a Fcukup(tm) than any considered plan. Of course this tendency for people to see patterns in random acts plays into political direction and misdirection.

And what reason might there be for deliberately downing a civilian airliner? To paint Russia and its interests in a bad light? OK then there are a couple of problems there. For a start if it was a Ukrainian faction then Russia would have been a lot more cooperative with getting international independent witnesses on the ground. They would have had a field day if they knew it was "the other guys". It would legitimise their position in a heartbeat. But what do we find? Local Russian backed militia being less than cooperative on the ground, flight data recorders finding their way to Moscow(a foreign country to Ukraine BTW) and even the deceased being used as pawns.

Actually this illustrates the Fcukup(tm) principle well. One side reckons the Russians are covering up and it certainly looks that way, yet with all the long experience of coverup that was a national sport in Soviet times look how arseways it's all going.

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

Well that seems to be very simplistic.
As far as I understand these BUK missile batteries are very sophisticated and are operated by personnel who are intelligent, well trained, and disciplined. It's a bit of a stretch of the imagination that some drunkard just had a go at firing at something.

To suggest that the operator would not know or care what he was targeting is not credible.

You do know their looking at a dot on a radar screen and an altitude/airspeed ? Or are you envisioning a colour TV camera with a crosshair zoomed in clearly identifying the plane ?

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

No.... No opinions.

Just facts.

- Russia annexed Crimea.
- Russia is fermenting rebellion in the east.
- Russian rebels brought down flight MH17.

Just the facts...

No amount of whataboutery or shilling changes this.

I still have seen any proof or evidence of your third point. How is it a fact?

VinLieger

Egginacup wrote: »

Well that seems to be very simplistic.
As far as I understand these BUK missile batteries are very sophisticated and are operated by personnel who are intelligent, well trained, and disciplined. It's a bit of a stretch of the imagination that some drunkard just had a go at firing at something.

To suggest that the operator would not know or care what he was targeting is not credible.

Yes they are very complicated to use which is why its easy to understand that one of the rebels, who again i think I need to repeat that the vast majority of whom ARE NOT MILITARY TRAINED, could make this mistake

Wibbs

VinLieger wrote: »

You are making so many assumptions that the rebel operating this machine has any military training whatsoever. You do understand the vast majority of these rebels are not military personnel yes?

Indeed. These systems aren't like a video game. They need training and more they need oversight and good intel. Even with all of those in play mistakes are made. All it needs is one cog missing and if you add panic or suspicion... A US destroyer downed a civilian jet in the Gulf and they had all the cogs lined up, except for the good intel part. The downing of KAL007 by the Soviets another example. They had highly trained guys, they had oversight, they even had eyes on the ground with highly trained fighter pilots but again the intel was lacking and panic kicked in(in the oversight dept) and a jumbo went down with all souls.

Wibbs

Egginacup wrote: »

I still have seen any proof or evidence of your third point. How is it a fact?

Who controls the area? Who controls the crash site? Where are the flight data recorders? Why is there no proof that it was Ukrainian forces? For all the pro Russian shilling out there, if this was poker they're holding nothing. Strange that, given how much of a coup it would be to be able to point to Ukrainian forces.

comongethappy

Egginacup wrote: »

I still have seen any proof or evidence of your third point. How is it a fact?

It's tricky to make the willfully blind see the obvious.

Egginacup

loughside wrote: »

As things stand this is about where the russians are at the moment

This Is What Kremlin Panic Looks Like

A terribly written article.
Once I saw "The War Room" I thought to myself that it was going to be a shabby piece. The eye-rolling reference to "nine grams of lead behind the ear" was enough for me to stop reading.

Wibbs

Oh and yea as others have said the Israeli shills are of a higher calibre when it gets down to the nitty gritty. Must be the training, or they just pick better. Actually can I get a gig. Seems like a handy way to make a couple of quid. I've a softer spot for Russia so maybe that might be the way to go. Though I do have some admiration for the resilience of Israel too. Shill for hire folks. PM's welcome.

Wibbs

Egginacup wrote: »

I still have seen any proof or evidence of your third point. How is it a fact?

Answer my points:

mise wrote:

And what reason might there be for deliberately downing a civilian airliner? To paint Russia and its interests in a bad light? OK then there are a couple of problems there. For a start if it was a Ukrainian faction then Russia would have been a lot more cooperative with getting international independent witnesses on the ground. They would have had a field day if they knew it was "the other guys". It would legitimise their position in a heartbeat. But what do we find? Local Russian backed militia being less than cooperative on the ground, flight data recorders finding their way to Moscow(a foreign country to Ukraine BTW) and even the deceased being used as pawns.

danniemcq

Egginacup wrote: »

I've asked this question before. How is it possible to mistake a passenger airliner for a military transporter? Surely the person tasked with operating the missile battery would have been trained to make sure he knew what target he was attacking. Surely he would have known that there needed to be clarification of what aircraft he was targeting, given that civilian airliners traverse the airspace also.
Unless you can tell me otherwise then I don't think the operators of these rather sophisticated systems just fire at anything they see floating 30,000 feet overhead.

First its not a super de dooper state of the art machine.

Its something that was designed in the Soviet Union during the 70's. Therefore there is always gonna be some issues when you look at the workings of it.

Apart from that the signitures of the Malaysian plane and the Ukranian transport would have been quite similar

"To a radar operator, the two aircraft might look similar,” said Navy Pilot Lt. James Swiggart, who has flown early-warning aircraft."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/17/what-would-it-take-to-shoot-down-mh17/

"Still, distinguishing between civilian and military aircraft would be difficult if the system used was lacking the newer tracking systems that use radar signatures and national systems to tell which was which. “The more sophisticated models can,” Finch said. “I know that was the case in Iraq.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/17/mh17-shoot-down-likely-was-a-mistake.html#

This is not an advanced state of the art weapon as i said. It works off radar and is quite old machinery in the hands of people that might not have received all the training that they could have got.

So all they see is a radar screen and a little green dot crossing it. This is in their range, its just over the no fly zone limit of 32000ft (reports vary that it was between 32 and 33 thousand ft.

There was information that a military transport was going to be in the area at that time.

The rebels have already shot down planes in the past so they had planned the same here. However without proper training and knowledge the radar signal that was picked up and hard to distinguish from the planned target would have launched the missle.

Now we also have the fact that

"However, Swiggart explained, advanced surface-to-air systems like the SA-17 are transponder aware, meaning they can detect if they are targeting an airliner. Civilian airlines are constantly broadcasting a four-digit transponder, known as an IFF code, that designates aircraft as civilian. The code would be detected by the SA-17 if the weapons system attempted to lock on or “paint” MH17."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/17/what-would-it-take-to-shoot-down-mh17/

however thats only the SA-17 whereas it appears that the BUK system involved in this was the SA-11 which i can't find for sure if it had that feature and if it did is it possible to disable/break.

also give this a go

https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Doesn't have the SA-11 version but gives you an idea

Egginacup

wes wrote: »

Ok, so you are taking the piss:

I'm not taking the "piss". I didn't remember this election.

comongethappy

wes wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014

Egginacup wrote: »

I didn't remember this election.

OK... OK.... we are drifting through the looking glass here I think.